Re: Ki and power and cooperation
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when you get there you will know stan |
Re: Ki and power and cooperation
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Peace.G. |
Re: Ki and power and cooperation
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I think there is a danger of confusing training exercises with real-life applications. We generally don't do real-life applications in the dojo because they are dangerous, so we do a lot of exercises to develop the skills that we would use in a real-life situation. If we deny, however, that these are training exercises (where we are exerting our will to simulate something or create certain training conditions), I think that can create a bad situation. Incidentally, I would call standing in one place and letting someone try to throw you or move you an exercise as well. In real life, the mountain that cannot be moved makes a pretty great target for a knife attack. Conrad |
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Of course, anybody is capable of taking ukemi if they choose to do so. The can also roll around on without anybody being around for miles. FWIW, Dan has taken ukemi for me many times. Best, Chris |
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I for one am teaching the nage how to 'throw' and indeed how to 'throw' me. Thus any teacher worth their salt is teaching how to. So any statement of how another couldn't shows a lack of good teaching from that viewpoint, by the uke. Peace.G. |
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I could see how the possibilities of experiencing the higher end of the scale would diminish (potentially to zero) as one's own abilities (or whatever :) ) increase relative to those of the people with whom one is training. Under this conception, O-Sensei might experience everyone the same way I experience training with my kids' class. I think this is the point Chris and Dan are trying to make. It makes sense to me. Conrad |
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Best, Chris |
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However it does remind me of a little story from my past. My girlfiend at the time wanted to visit her friend in a certain 'no go' area in north London as she was living with a guy who was a master of some martial art. This art she said practiced 'unpenetrable' body. That did make me smile. She said it was Ki based and what she had been told and we discussed it. Anyway, move forward to me being in the guys house waiting for her to return from the kitchen where she was chatting with her friend and husband and a group of guys from his school. It was called Kateda as I recall. One guy came out from the kitchen and brought me a book to read and then another came and asked me if I would like a drink and then another came and sat down and proceede to talk about martial arts. I listened and acknowledged them but was taken by a strange type of reverence they all seemed to be giving me. Finally my girlfriend reappeared and was ready to go and everyone came and bid us farewell and even insisted I leave with a present. This bugged me. When we got home it dawned on me that something must have been said in the kitchen that I was unaware of so I asked what had been said. She told me that the men had been showing her some Kateda and she had done what I said and they hit the floor. On asking her where she learned that she had told them I had taught her it. Wow! Now it all made sense. I shook my head and laughed. "Why do people do that?" I thought. Peace.G. |
Re: Ki and power and cooperation
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when you know you've arrived, there's that someone waiting around the corner who will let you know, that you're not there yet. Ron |
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always wondering why folks shy away from acquiring power? as though, power is a bad thing. perhaps they don't trust themselves with it? i don't have problem with power. foods and women, on the hand, are problematic. :D question, is a sphere (3-D) a stable shape? |
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Stability Two of the concepts Ueshiba talked about; Heaven/earth/man and six direction training were grossly mistranslated as a random sequence of words lacking any known meaning to the translators. So six direction training which had been laid out in India, in China, and as early as 1451 in Japan and taught at places such as the Katori and Kashima shrines was always categorized as imbuing an adept with power. This teaching-itself a very deep and difficult endeavor with an established pedagogy was reduced to "stand in hanmi" by some of the same people who brought us modern aikido. There is a reason to attain central stability and hence dynamic stability. It is from this stability that the body achieves in yo or (yin yang). It is the central support system that allows the body to be soft-yet strong. Thinking it has anything at all to do with “standing still” just demonstrates the incredible ignorance of the modern martial arts community to what is really going on. Point of fact is that once this central stability is achieved-mores the point once the method to achieve it is built into the body-you actually move faster than a normal person in space, with no telegraphing movement. This is one of the reasons that the attributes of Heaven earth man and six direction training are never argued in person, but only on the net by an uneducated and inexperienced community of teachers. Simply put, in person those who do not understand it simply fail agains those who do. Virtually all of them. As an aside I would mention that one of the staple principles of throwing is the push when pulled or turn when pushed examples. And the model I am describing virtually eliminates the very idea, to the point that it simply doesn’t work on you. The secondary attribute I mentioned is the ability to make change in yourself that offers no telegraphing to an opponent. This has to do with the fact that the method used to connect the body to make these principles work has another benefit in that the body works in a highly efficient manner that doesn’t weight shift like normal folk. This results in rapid movement, weight transfers in and out of an opponent without your weight being applied or being “had” and incredible force in punching or kicking. Other benefits are ghosty, unreadable movements. So in reality there really is no debate. Thinking someone can out argue you, or out talk you matters little. Very intelligent and well read “experts” in budo fall apart against it, MMA people are flummoxed trying to figure out what is happening to them. So any internet *dialogue* is the equivalent of trying to debate whether two and two equals four. Suffice to say that Ueshiba was oft times quoting well established works-including Chinese classics, and was not the singular genius people think he was. I am not taking anything away from him here, but in fact appluading him, and just noting that he was yet another “great” using deeper level principles of the Asian arts that few know about or ever attain. As I mentioned at the beginning of this, the debate over them has existed for centuries. Again a founder of a Japanese Koryu in 1451 uses the very same models Ueshiba was discussing: “Once I understood the concepts of Heaven/earth/man and six direction method, (learned from esoteric training at Kashima and Katori shrine) my ken was unbeatable. No one could stop me.” A modern martial artists not finding any of this useful is a stunning statement of their level of understanding of movement and the higher levels of Budo. Dan |
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Also depends what kind of stability you're talking about. If you mean, e.g., a hard ball lying on the flat surface -- it's relatively hard to crush (harder than a cube of the same material), but very very easy to roll (unlike a cube of the same material). |
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Dynamic stillness. Makes for surprisingly fast striking and movement. Still trying to grok it all... Back to my rubber bands. And I need to find some time to get together with Gary... |
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When it comes to why modern Aikido-ka shying away from power... a. Because beyond all protestations to the contrary-they really have no understanding of what was meant by *power* in the arts. They continue to think it is flexing and using muscle. b. Because the teachers themselves who held this knowledge do not- or do not know *how*... to teach. c. There are those teaching "Internal power" and "aiki" who pale in comparison to those who understand it. All they are really doing is muddying the waters even further. It can't be helped. Hopefully, the dialogue has served to increase awareness. As people get exposure, they are going to see the forrest for the trees and prevent themselves from getting lost in the weeds by listening to people who really have no business teaching aiki, and also those who claim to teach but don't. Dan |
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As is often discussed, go meet people who have demonstrably unusual skills...and more importantly have students..WITH UNUSUAL SKILLS???? If not why not? Everyone else? They obviously either don't get it, or have it and won't teach it, or don't want to know. They are the Tom, Dick or Harry who make up the bulk of the martial arts. If you want to be Tom, Dick, or the average Jane...go for it. But is that really what we want for ourselves? Who we want to be? Dan |
Re: Ki and power and cooperation
Ki
The question then arises that if the balance of ki is meant to be in you BEFORE it is manifest between you and someone else "AIki in me, before aiki between thee and me" how and where does that change and engagement? I contend that the *blending* everyone is shooting for-including the misunderstood four legged animal model-is incorrect and will leave you open for counters and being controlled youself. It is not and never was the aiki the Asians were noting as a deep level of control. Cooperation When is cooperation useful? What are its limits? When is it meaningful to create pressure? What kind of pressure? Against who? When does cooperation cause more harm and hamper progress? When is it self defeating and self deluding? When is it antithetical to real martial skills? Dan |
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As one ICMA grand master level guy said...."You cannot pretend dantian. You will be found out." So it is troubling for those with real connection to watch those who beyond all claims to the contrary don't have a connected body and show many structural failures while supposedly being connected and connecting to someone else. Beyond the power model there is the aiki model and the very real attributes of spiral movement and why Ueshiba stated that the mysteries of Aiki are revealed in dual spiral movement. It takes Tohei's model to a far deeper level and expresses aiki or jins everywhere at once. I will be at ADV in Sept if you can make it. Dan |
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My point in responding to the question about the sphere with a comment about different models of the sphere is that -- it depends what you mean by a sphere and it depends what you mean by stability. I.e., more info is needed to answer the question of whether a sphere is stable. Quote:
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation
My thoughts here:
1. I have pursued aikido with the goal first to control myself and second to control my environment. As I have a tendency to say, "get your house in order before wrecking your neighbors." I like Dan's reference to compare and contrast being "un-throwable" and "throwing". For me, it makes sense that I should look first and foremost that that which improves me; and second to that which affects others. 2. The Sun don't orbit the Earth, its the other way around. When we "aiki", one center has to become submissive to the other. Whether this order is achieved artificially or naturally is relevant to training. What I understand to be "cooperation" has very little to do with falling and more to do with establishing order in aiki. As a note to these points, I think sometimes we tend to focus on "throwing" and less on ourselves. I guess sometimes we like the false sense of power that comes from throwing someone (especially if they are bigger, or faster, etc.). Second, I think sometimes we mistake cooperating with our partner as falling for them. When I train with big center people, I appreciate that they allow my center to lead the dance, even though I am still train to create a relationship when they don't have to "let" me lead. These people don't "fall" for me because even if they let me control our centers I can still screw up waza. Aikido does not require "cooperation". For those us us who train with cooperation we should understand that as a training aid that eventually we should shed. Similarly, to be unable to defend your center and balance as part of your training should also be seen as deficient and something to improve upon. Besides, how could Phi and I possible fight atop the bamboo forests in North Carolina if we didn't have good un-moveable centers? |
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I would think of a sphere as a stable shape, but they do tend to roll out into the street during soccer matches and get flattened, so maybe not as stable as I might initially think? ...just wanted to add I'm really digging this thread. Thank you everyone for great food for thought! |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqzunKZr3Eg Watch, listen and learn folks ! ;) |
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The Asians I have met who had unusual power- all use metaphor. The Tom, Dick and Harry Western guys uses mechanical models. NONE of the Western teachers I had personally met feel any different than every other Tom, Dick and Harry. I'll change my mind when I find someone who uses the mechanical models and actually has something unusual to share. So far its been a bust. Six direction method imparts a sphere -in theory- but it uses the mind/ body in specific ways to manifest that feel. Think of one point as a model. There is no sphere, so talking about how strong a sphere is and the qualities of it are waste of time. You cannot make a sphere out of your body and if you try, you will fail in innumerable ways. Likewise there are innumerable Aikido people who claim to use Tohei's model or to understand ki who have nothing unusual by way of power. Their one point is sort of okay under dojo conditions but fails under stress. Using the sphere as a mechanical model is inefficient. Describing what the body must do to manifest six directions is an exacting model that is a success. A success with a history. Remember, Ueshiba was talking about the body...and not the "spiritual" things people erroneously assigned to his physical principles. Why? The really wonderful question is why does six direction blow up the push/pull model? The answer is simple but very hard to grok at first, harder still to do. Most simply cannot see how you could be in agreement with someone and totally neutralizing them at the same time. Moreover what that does to your own body to strengthen it and how? And if you understand THAT then you understand that making aiki between you and them like the oft quoted four legged animal between you and someone else was flawed from the start. Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Shirata had it right. There is no debate in person. So I prefer to debate in that venue, where teachers have to provide proof of their understanding in an inescapable venue under stress. Dan |
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