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-   -   AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25468)

MrIggy 02-05-2018 06:42 AM

AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Some interesting view points on the way various Aikido techniques are used that might not have a credible martial effectiveness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSokOfplxA8 - Yokomenuchi Shihonage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvdGmZy1IGc - Katatori Ikkyo

dps 02-05-2018 01:39 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
I watched both videos.
The number one reason a technique does not work is because the opponent is not unbalanced before the technique is applied. If your opponent is unbalanced and you are balanced you are then in control of the opponent and can apply any technique you want, Aikido or otherwise.

dps

Mary Eastland 02-06-2018 03:08 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
self serving

ninjedi 02-06-2018 12:43 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
I would tend to agree, the reason the techniques in these videos are not working is because he is not doing them correctly. Uke is standing upright with both feet firmly planted in almost every demo.

shizentai 02-07-2018 04:19 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Yeah, yeah, it's true that many techniques will work once the opponent is unbalanced. Yet some techniques have far worse chance of unbalancing said opponent than others. It is a delusional yet typical Aikido viewpoint that all techniques have the same chance of successful execution.

In fact, the only parts of traditional Aikido that actually work in reality, are the beginnings of techniques, not the techniques themselves. Deflections, redirects, defensive footwork and positioning with counter strikes and closing of openings.

Chances of you doing shiho nage to a haymaker or ikkyo to a collar grab in real life are extremely low. Extremely.

This is probably why Tenshin Aikido makes a big deal out of drilling deflections. They do work. They're the cornerstone of Aikido's effectiveness as a defensive system. From them it may be possible to transition to some techniques, SOMETIMES, and not at all in the manner that traditional Aikidoists are accustomed to.

lbb 02-07-2018 10:35 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: (Post 353009)
It is a delusional yet typical Aikido viewpoint

Oh boy. :rolleyes:

Demetrio Cereijo 02-07-2018 01:47 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 353004)
I watched both videos.

Guy talks too much.

Does he at any moment performs the techniques in a functional, alive way?

Rupert Atkinson 02-08-2018 01:38 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
The techniques of Aikido are there to develop aiki. They are not really techniques of self-defence. But if you have a measure of some aiki, and put it into say, Jujutsu, then you will have something. Otherwise, even Jujutsu is just 'crunch uke with levered force'.

dps 02-08-2018 05:20 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 353012)
The techniques of Aikido are there to develop aiki. They are not really techniques of self-defence. But if you have a measure of some aiki, and put it into say, Jujutsu, then you will have something. Otherwise, even Jujutsu is just 'crunch uke with levered force'.

The techniques of aikido are used to develope aiki but are not for self defense. Therefore aiki is not for self defense? If aiki is for self defense then why can't you put aiki into the Aikido techniques and have something?

dps

dps 02-08-2018 05:26 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 353011)
Guy talks too much.

Does he at any moment performs the techniques in a functional, alive way?

No.

dps

MrIggy 02-08-2018 09:35 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 353012)
The techniques of Aikido are there to develop aiki. They are not really techniques of self-defence. But if you have a measure of some aiki, and put it into say, Jujutsu, then you will have something. Otherwise, even Jujutsu is just 'crunch uke with levered force'.

What are we going to do about the statement of Yukiyoshi Sagawa who said that only amateurs think they can achieve Aiki through techniques?

dps 02-08-2018 11:34 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Igor Vojnović wrote: (Post 353015)
What are we going to do about the statement of Yukiyoshi Sagawa who said that only amateurs think they can achieve Aiki through techniques?

Ignore it.

dps

Rupert Atkinson 02-08-2018 11:54 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Igor Vojnović wrote: (Post 353015)
What are we going to do about the statement of Yukiyoshi Sagawa who said that only amateurs think they can achieve Aiki through techniques?

It is absolutely correct. The Aikido 'techniques' are not the techniques he was talking about. He was talking about Jujutsu techniques.

Rupert Atkinson 02-08-2018 11:57 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 353013)
The techniques of aikido are used to develope aiki but are not for self defense. Therefore aiki is not for self defense? If aiki is for self defense then why can't you put aiki into the Aikido techniques and have something?

dps

Well, you could - that is what some people try to do. But the Aikido techniques themselves are insufficient for self-defence. If I were young again I would spend my life first targeting aiki and then trying to put it into Judo/Jujutsu etc. I did try ... but it took me too long to figure it all out. Too old now. I was led down the wrong paths until I eventually broke free for myself.

MrIggy 02-08-2018 04:53 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 353018)
Well, you could - that is what some people try to do. But the Aikido techniques themselves are insufficient for self-defence.

Hm, somebody should have told that to several of the people I know who had to use them one way or another.

Quote:

If I were young again I would spend my life first targeting aiki and then trying to put it into Judo/Jujutsu etc. I did try ... but it took me too long to figure it all out. Too old now. I was led down the wrong paths until I eventually broke free for myself.
le I know who had to use them in the

First, Jujutsu as in JJJ or BJJ?

Second, why would you want to put something as complicated as aiki into something that already works on the good old basic physics of leverage and gravity?

MrIggy 02-08-2018 04:56 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 353017)
It is absolutely correct. The Aikido 'techniques' are not the techniques he was talking about. He was talking about Jujutsu techniques.

And the techniques in Aikido are in fact jujutsu techniques of Daito ryu, it's been said by multiple people that the techniques themselves aren't enough to gain an aiki body.

Essentially someone should try first for a couple of years to concentrate only on gaining aiki then on implementing it in techniques.

MrIggy 02-08-2018 05:11 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 353016)
Ignore it.

dps

Why?

Jeremy Hulley 02-09-2018 10:51 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
For reference Bernie Lau who was a Seattle police officer for years certainly made shihonage and ikkyo work against resisting opponents.

ninjedi 02-09-2018 11:25 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Igor Vojnović wrote: (Post 353020)
Essentially someone should try first for a couple of years to concentrate only on gaining aiki then on implementing it in techniques.

Isn't that akin to putting the cart before the horse?

Do we not gain aiki by training, learning techniques?

If you want to race in the Daytona 500, you first have to learn how to drive.

RonRagusa 02-09-2018 03:33 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Josh Brown wrote: (Post 353023)
Do we not gain aiki by training, learning techniques?

The prevailing view among aiki first proponents is no, you can't develop aiki via the practice of technique. Personally, I think that's just a marketing gimmick. There are many ways of training mind and body to work in unison in order to develop aiki, the study of aikido being just one.

Ron

shizentai 02-09-2018 11:36 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 353010)
Oh boy. :rolleyes:

You can't counter the objective truth with "oh boy".

Nicholas Eschenbruch 02-10-2018 03:51 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: (Post 353025)
You can't counter the objective truth with "oh boy".

Oh boy :p
I wish I had the objective truth about anything really.

What is shown on those initial vids is shown to beginners in the three major lineages I have been exposed to (Nocquet, Saito, Yamaguchi).

MrIggy 02-10-2018 10:32 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

Josh Brown wrote: (Post 353023)
Isn't that akin to putting the cart before the horse?

Do we not gain aiki by training, learning techniques?

Nope, as Ron also confirmed, by the words of aiki people you don't gain aiki by doing techniques.

Quote:

If you want to race in the Daytona 500, you first have to learn how to drive.
And aiki would be the driving part actually. However, in all respect to them, you didn't NEED aiki to successfully perform the techniques, it mostly comes down to what is determined as successful in the given context.

MRoh 02-10-2018 01:20 PM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 353013)
The techniques of aikido are used to develope aiki but are not for self defense. Therefore aiki is not for self defense?

The techniques of aikido derived from jujutsu, some of them exist in several ryuha.
What is unique in a specific ryű is the way they are combined with a special way of taisabaki or bodymechanic.
The techniques were created to be used in real fight.
The method of training or executing them in Aikido is a different matter, but the origin is the same.
In aikido they are used as a training tool to develope bodyskills, maybe to develop aiki if it's correctly done.
Developing fighting skills is another aim, even aiki is not a garant for being able to fght.

MrIggy 02-11-2018 11:25 AM

Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1LpFp4nifM - here's a one on Ushiro Kubishime:


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