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-   -   Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17180)

dps 11-18-2009 10:35 AM

Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
How is internal strength related to Suwariwaza - Kokyuho?

David

C. David Henderson 11-18-2009 10:55 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Great question.

jss 11-18-2009 11:05 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Intimately.

Jeremy Hulley 11-18-2009 11:07 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Just a tool for training internal skills.

C. David Henderson 11-18-2009 11:19 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Jeremy,

Are you making a distinction between "strength" and "skills" here? Could you say more?

Respectfully

cdh

Jeremy Hulley 11-18-2009 03:03 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

David Henderson wrote: (Post 245838)
Jeremy,

Are you making a distinction between "strength" and "skills" here? Could you say more?

Respectfully

cdh

Thanks,
I sort of mis read or mis read into the question. I think that Kokyu-ho, agete can be a tool for develping internal strength and a marker to see if you've got some of it..

I think that being seated takes the ability to bend the knees out of the equation.

I guess that I'm thinkig out loud here but they don't have to be related.

eyrie 11-18-2009 04:47 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 245832)
How is internal strength related to Suwariwaza - Kokyuho?

What do you mean "how related"? Kokyu-ho is an (IS development) exercise/method... The more appropriate question, to me, would be, how and in what way does kokyu-ho develop IS?

Lonin 11-18-2009 05:31 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
my opinion is that the suwariwaza part allows for focussed feeling of uke's forces and direction without the distraction of movement. Upper body relaxation with lower body rootedness is the core of "internal" martial arts. kokyu Ho movements of arm extension promotes grounding. Wrist rotations promotes the ability to reduce ukes power without losing connection and attachment. Finally movement of nage's core either linearly or by rotation brings about kuzhushi. Hope this will help.

dps 11-18-2009 06:35 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 245873)
What do you mean "how related"? Kokyu-ho is an (IS development) exercise/method... The more appropriate question, to me, would be, how and in what way does kokyu-ho develop IS?

Well that would be a relationship between the two.
Do you have an answer to your question?

David

eyrie 11-18-2009 07:09 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
If I did, would I be asking the question? ;)

Abasan 11-18-2009 07:40 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
I think it helps with developing Aiki skills, not Internal Strength. No doubt someone with Internal Strength would be able to do a semblance of kyoku-ho. So would a person who has no IS but has good Aiki skills.

But there are better ways to train IS than this, so I wouldn't expect it to help much in IS development. It helps tremendously in Aiki development though.

Loh mention some good points. At the end of it all, you can see the difference when done right and when done improperly. Some people raise their armpits thereby losing chushin, some posture up thus find it hard to learn uprooting and instead resort to pushing, some don't extend and thus uke can push them in, some are rigid thus uke can capture their center easily. So uke learns to develop extension without pushing or rigidity or floppiness and he can do it faster because he's training the upper body first and keeping center while seated is easier on the mind. That's the basic aspect I think anyway.

Mark Uttech 11-19-2009 04:52 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Onegaishimasu, suwariwaza and kokyuho are ways of exploring traditional ways of training. Maybe internal strength becomes a discovered result. In suwariwaza, for example, you do need to move your body as a single unit. You also explore another way of moving. My two cents, for what it's worth.

In gassho,

Mark

Rob Watson 11-19-2009 09:44 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote: (Post 245914)
Onegaishimasu, suwariwaza and kokyuho are ways of exploring traditional ways of training.

Mostly it just wreaks ones knees ...

Flintstone 11-19-2009 04:10 PM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 245920)
Mostly it just wreaks ones knees ...

I always find this here and there. Maybe not moving right? I'm sure my suwariwaza's not that good, but it helps strengthening my knees, not wreaking them. For me. :confused:

Alec Corper 11-20-2009 03:25 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
It is a nice open ended question, good for internet discussion or argument.
What is your meaning of internal strength? Connected fascia, chi or ki stream, using whole body as single muscle, wave power, "zero power", emptying partners strength through mental vacuum, correct body alignment, physics at work, spinal torsion, subtle hand changes? etc.....
What is koyku ho. "breath power"? good body mechanics, raising energy flow through coordinated hands, arms, hips to tanden and on into ground path, perfect timing and absorption, arm wrestling,one-upmanship? etc...
I'm sure if we actually practised together some exploration would become possible, until then we just swop opinions without a genuine shared context.
regards and respect.

bulevardi 02-13-2010 05:46 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote: (Post 245914)
Onegaishimasu, suwariwaza and kokyuho are ways of exploring traditional ways of training.

How do you train on onegaishimasu ?

sakumeikan 03-12-2010 02:20 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Dirk Desmet wrote: (Post 252301)
How do you train on onegaishimasu ?

How do you train in onegaishimasu , simple, rather than just say the phrase , you should genuinely and with sincerity offer thanks to your teacher/fellow students for what you are about to receive.Its a bit like saying grace [ in earlier times] prior to eating the food that has been provided for you .The teacher provides you with food [the waza ] , you provide him the vehicle [as Uke ] to practice the waza. So mutual thanks and respect are given both by Sensei and by the students.
The phrase is not just a word it symbolises and attitude of thanks and gratitude for the lessons.

Josh Reyer 03-12-2010 02:40 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Dirk Desmet wrote: (Post 252301)
How do you train on onegaishimasu ?

Say, "Own a guy, she must!" real fast, several times a day.

bulevardi 03-26-2010 03:40 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Anyway. Kokyuho is for me personally one of the more important exercises in Aikido.
It even gets more difficult when I always get a total different explanation on how to do that technique from each new partner I train with.
Now I understand that some more advanced members in my club say that they finally understood the technique after several years of training. :straightf

Eva Antonia 03-26-2010 05:24 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 253700)
Say, "Own a guy, she must!" real fast, several times a day.

Hahaha!
I started memorising it with the Turkish "Onu kaşımaz!'
(it wouldn't scratch him!)

But now, I can even write it :)

Best,

Eva

DH 03-26-2010 07:25 AM

Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength
 
Quote:

Dirk Desmet wrote: (Post 254549)
Anyway. Kokyuho is for me personally one of the more important exercises in Aikido.
It even gets more difficult when I always get a total different explanation on how to do that technique from each new partner I train with.
Now I understand that some more advanced members in my club say that they finally understood the technique after several years of training. :straightf

Kokyu-ho isn't a technique-it's a state of being.
As such, everything, and anyone touching you becomes a kokyu involved move.
Trouble arises when the vast majority of people in an art all do something consistently and in consort and establish a new standard- divorced from the source. It doesn't matter that it's wrong, and that it misses the point entirely.
Wrong...becomes the norm.
Right is unrecognizable and no longer even pursued.

Dan


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