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Anonymous 01-21-2008 02:21 PM

What to do ?
 
Person A has serious reasons, not to be touched by person B, so she's not able, to train with him anymore. Would this be possible in wour dojo, or would she have to train with everybody or leave ?

SeiserL 01-21-2008 03:02 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
You would have permission to train with who you want. If there was a problem I would want to be informed. But, no one, in or out of the dojo, should be allowed to touch you without your expressed permission.

Anonymous 01-21-2008 03:21 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
I really hope, that my Sensei thinks the same way. I didn't dare to talk to him by now, because I don't want to tell him details. I want to go back to the dojo, but it is not very easy.

Janet Rosen 01-21-2008 03:25 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
In most dojo I've been member of, while it is ok to not partner w/ somebody, SOME kind of explanation to the chief instructor would be expected for refusing to partner w/ an individual. However, I would hope that simply saying "I don't feel safe training with that person" followed by "I'd prefer not to go into details:"would suffice.
Note that some instructors however, feeling very responsible for what goes on in their dojo, would ask for more detail to make sure that the individual in question was not also posing a threat to other members besides you, and that is a valid concern for an instructor.

Anonymous 01-21-2008 03:37 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
I've talked to some friends about what happened, and everybody told me, that this man would be so dangerous for me, that I should stay far, far, far away from him.
He did abuse me sexually (oral) and most of all behaved like a complete disturbed (crazy ? sorry for my english), as if he where not himself and had not even contact to that "other" person and where not responsible for him.
He is my Sempai, I know him for nearly three years now, always trusted him absolutely and I cannot believe, that the short-time-monster is more important than my "old" Sempai. So I want him to explain, what it all was about. So, I THINK he is dangerous for every female person, but I FEEL that this is not true.

Anonymous 01-21-2008 04:22 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ? what he did to me, was outside the dojo and I still can't understand it. So I really don't know, if there is danger for me - surely not on the mat.

Angela Dunn 01-21-2008 04:35 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
I am going to throw my own thoughts into this arena and say if your not comfortable training with person B then do not. If your Sensei knows the circumstances around what happened and why you do not wish to train with him then he should respect that. I would just have a quick chat with him, after all if he was banned before then I assume he does know the circumstances around it.

I would like to think if this did come up then a solution could be reached. If you really do not want to train with person B then don't.

Laurel Seacord 01-21-2008 04:45 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
If you cannot tell the chief instructor the reason in detail why you cannot train with this person, I STRONGLY suggest you confide in someone else you can trust in the dojo. If you remain in the dojo with this person, whether you allow him to touch you or not, you run the risk of condoning his actions. By telling someone else you have at least taken some action on your behalf and on behalf of the other women training there.

Fred Little 01-21-2008 04:49 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 197696)
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ? what he did to me, was outside the dojo and I still can't understand it. So I really don't know, if there is danger for me - surely not on the mat.

There are never enough facts in anonymous inquiries like this to enable anyone reading to give much in the way of a useful response, and additional facts tend to make the inquiry increasingly less anonymous.

That said, I would observe the following:

Aside from the fact that very few dojo operators are trained psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, or certified social workers.....

Someone asked him to leave and someone let him back in.

Someone has implicitly taken responsibility for him.

You should talk with that someone directly. Information regarding your experience outside the dojo may change that individual's view of the situation. Or it may not.

But observing the way that individual deals with the information you provide and deals with your concerns will go a long way to letting you know whether this dojo is the right place for you.

If you don't feel you can talk with that individual, that tells you something important too.

Good luck,

FL

FL

Anonymous 01-21-2008 05:10 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). Although in my case it's not rape, but "only" other form of sexual abuse, I somehow don't want to discuss my mistakes.
I am kind of responsible, of course, but I could never foresee that my Sempai, in whom I trusted so much, would behave that way. He was like he were not himself.
I'm also afraid, that Sensei may ban him again, because I think, Person B is the only person who can undo what happened and change it into something like a nightmare, that I can simply forget.

Anonymous 01-21-2008 05:15 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
I have got some technical problems with writing here (need to log in new every time), so maybe two posts, that I have written, may appear in the wrong order (a moderator has to read them first). I wait until they are here.

Kevin Leavitt 01-21-2008 06:12 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ?
Yes and no. IMO, A dojo is not responsible for rehabilitating people nor is a place to "experiment" with people. As Mr. Little said, most are not run by Psychiatric or Medical Doctors that specialize in this field. Even if you have such an individual, it is not a clinic, nor is it a place for treatment.

It is a place where people should be able to come and train safely without concern for their safety or health. If a member of the dojo poses a risk to anyone, and it is identified, then it must be properly dealt with and mitigated.

Yes, it is a place for sane and stable people to come together to better understand violence. it may even help those with bad temperment, and those that are prone to emotional and physical outburst. However, if they ever are considered to pose a danger to the health and welfare of others, then they should not practice there. There is a clear line between having feelings and issues, and acting on them uncontrollably.

If a professional thinks that aikido is good therapy, then he/she should start his/her own "support/therapy" group that is composed of people that williingly place themselves in that environment as "assistants" to the professional, or as "patients". The environment should be controlled as a clinc or support group.

A normal dojo is not such a place, IMO.

Joseph Madden 01-21-2008 07:23 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
If this "person B" has a history of violence ie: threatening somebody and "person B" been allowed to return to the dojo....leave the dojo. It's obvious from what you've mentioned that you are frightened of this person and from the evidence gathered from your statements, your instructor is not really interested in dealing with the problem. If your sensei is not the heart and mind of his dojo on this level alone, leave his dojo and seek enlightenment and training elsewhere.

edshockley 01-21-2008 08:21 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
In a perfect world, each practitioner would leave worldly thoughts in a little pile just off to the left when they bow upon entering a dojo. They might even, in a perfect world, forget to pick up that little pile of neuroses when they bow to leave the dojo. This is not yet a perfect world and so, as many people have said, we assess our part in the situation and make training choices that preserve our health and honor the sacred training space. Everyone who trains for any length of time will encounter some disagreeable and/or dangerous partner. How we respond to this situation is another key lesson in the way of harmony. Good luck and good judgement.

Janet Rosen 01-21-2008 11:47 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
If person B's return is based on faulty information (he is "better" and not a threat) then the instructor giving the ok for his return is basing that ok on faulty info.
Frankly, I think as a member of the dojo community it is your responsibility to give the instructor the information he needs.
If you do not feel that much a part of the dojo community then perhaps you would consider whether it would be best for you to train elsewhere - not because person B is there, but because you don't feel enfranchised by the instructor or dojo culture enough to feel as valuable or more valuable than person B.

SeiserL 01-22-2008 06:48 AM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 197702)
IMO, A dojo is not responsible for rehabilitating people nor is a place to "experiment" with people. As Mr. Little said, most are not run by Psychiatric or Medical Doctors that specialize in this field. Even if you have such an individual, it is not a clinic, nor is it a place for treatment.

As one of those trained in both arts (martial and psychological). training is not treatment. If the individual was asked to leave but is back, and you choose not to train with them, the Sensei will probably already know why.

And, the best way to understand why people do what they do, its a statement of who they are, not who you are. Don't take it personally.

Now get back on the mat and don't let other's problems interrupt or interfere with you training.

Trish Greene 01-22-2008 12:24 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 197700)
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). Although in my case it's not rape, but "only" other form of sexual abuse, I somehow don't want to discuss my mistakes.

This statement floors me. "in case of rape there is always the woman100% responsible (not guilty but responsible)."

I would urge you not to take the advise of the dojocho on this one. I know, as a woman, we are responsible for making sure we are in a safe environment, but you can't say we are 100% responsible for being raped. That is ludicrous.

Janet Rosen 01-22-2008 12:30 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Your clarifying post didn't show up til after my last reply.
Find another dojo to train at - why would you want to train under a dojocho w/ that kind of attitude?

Michael Hackett 01-22-2008 12:56 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Trish and Janet hit the nail on the head! What a load of crap. I'm sure your dojo cho has never interviewed a rape victim, in the ER or anywhere else. His logic eludes me; a woman exists, therefore she is responsible for everything that happens to her? Other than that, I can't see the thought progression. Please explain his rationale, if he shared it with you.

Ron Tisdale 01-22-2008 01:15 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
I find this thread very disturbing, and as Fred says, we cannot have enough information to give pertinent advice.

My off the cuff advice is to

a) seek counseling to deal with what you say happened to you

b) seek law enforcement to punish the person who did it

c) Unfortunately, if you have interpreted what the instructor said correctly, seek another dojo!

Best,
Ron

NagaBaba 01-22-2008 01:49 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 197700)
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). .

I hope that in your country not all men think like that :grr: If it is a case, change country.

And of course, change a dojo as fast as possible. If a chief instructor thinks like that it is not surprise, that his students behave badly. What a horror! :mad:

Ron Tisdale 01-22-2008 01:55 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Mr. S speaks truth...AGAIN!

B,
R

Marc Abrams 01-22-2008 02:44 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Like Lynn, I am a licensed psychologist and Aikido instructor. I cannot understand what the psychologist meant by 100% responsible. That sounds like a strange statement for a psychologist to make. Lynn's point that a dojo is not a therapeutic environment is one that all dojos should adhere to.

At my hombu dojo in NYC, we had mentally disturbed people training at our dojo (one called herself Steven Seagal's psychic wife!). A psychiatrist and myself were always talking about how wrong it was to allow actively psychotic people to be training. When I had the "pleasure" of serving as president of that dojo, I allowed one incident to be the basis for instituting the policy of not allowing seriously mentally ill people to be training. It was disruptive to the other students and the potential for the unexpected also kept people on edge.

Ron's advice was sound! If an act of sexual abuse happened, then it should be investigated. The head of the dojo should be made aware and that person should act appropriately by expelling anybody who intentionally abuses another member. The dojo atmosphere requires a great deal of trust in each other. I cannot imagine how that can be fostered in this situation.

If the head of the school does not do the right thing, I believe that you should seek training elsewhere.

Marc Abrams

ChrisMoses 01-22-2008 02:52 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Chiming in with the chorus.

It's not only OK for you *not* to train with that person, (for clarity I'll refer to him as Filthy Slimeball) but it is *not* OK for him to train with anyone else at that dojo. No matter what the specific circumstances, he betrayed a very basic level of trust, one frankly far baser than those required to train safely in a dojo with other people. Filthy Slimeball should be banished.

If your instructor knows about this event and hasn't banished them (or beat Filthy Slimeball to a bloody pulp, then banished them) you shouldn't even consider going back. Given their wacky opinion on sexual assault, I'd say pack it up. A dojo is a place to study the way, not a treatment center.

:grr:

/mad face.

Anonymous 01-22-2008 03:02 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
I am quite sure, Sensei has no idea, how serious the emotional problems of that man are. I met him several times outside the dojo and would never have believed that. (I mean this strange "being not himself and having a different voice")
The problem with law enforcement is, that it is nearly impossible here that a man gets punished for things like that, if there are no witnesses and if - as in my case- the woman came into his flat voluntarely, it's simply "word against word" and so only 10% of the men, that are accused at a police station, have to go to court. And only another 10 % get a punishment.(I am sure it's the same in America, isn't it ? ).
I really think, I need to talk to Sensei. At the moment I am simply "running away" and worry about how he may react. I should rather try, how he reacts and then run away, if necessary.

Anonymous 01-22-2008 03:13 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Oh, Christian posted faster than I did.
No, Sensei does not know anything about that ! I am really not sure, if "person B" has to be banned, because this happened outside the dojo.

Marc Abrams 01-22-2008 04:14 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER THIS INCIDENT TOOK PLACE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE OF THE DOJO- IT WAS GROSSLY INAPPROPRIATE AND WRONG!

You both are students at the same school. You both are students inside and outside of the dojo. The respect for one another that exists inside of the dojo is not exclusive to the dojo. Your concern about how the police might handle it is genuine and should be considered in how you chose to handle the situation. At a minimum, the teacher should be told yesterday. The teacher has an obligation to the students. The teacher cannot act on that obligation if left in the dark.

Marc Abrams

ChrisMoses 01-22-2008 04:26 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
If you can't trust someone not to sexually assault other members of the dojo, how can you ever trust them to treat their training partners with respect on the mat?

Not OK,
Not open for discussion.

Beat to pulp, then ban.

Angela Dunn 01-22-2008 04:33 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Not an expert, not qualified and not pretending to know exactly what your feeling and going through right now. But If you want someone who is away from the situation to rant at or talk things through with then I would be more than happy to be that person if you think it could help.

Unfortunately I to had a unwelcome and unexpected run in with a guy in my dojo (and a wake up call to this crazy little thing called the males of the species!). Different circumstances but was faced with the prospect of talking it through with my own Sensei.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=12967&page=5
The post I made at the time and the wonderful help and support I got from this forums.

That thread may be of some help to you with regards to recommendations and useful links etc. I would also recommend reading a book called the gift of fear by Gavin De Becker, from your clarifying posts I can guess at what happened and think you may find that book helpful.

I would definitely find someone to discuss this with at your dojo. As the posts above say it was not appropriate behavior and yes your Sensei can do something about it, and really should for the safety and welfare of their other students. If you really can not face talking it through with a male, (although honestly they really are not all jerks and have opinions like your dojo cho and some can actually listen and help you through it) then is there a higher female grade you could tell and have accompany you when you do talk to him? Or someone who can talk to him on your behalf?

He does need to know what happened. If he was banned I can not understand why they are allowing him back, but if you talk to someone there then they can at least know why you are not comfortable around him. Honestly though I would not want to be in the same room as that person (Fortunately I did not have to be and I would be bricking it if I had to be, even now) and it certainly does not sound as though aikido is the right place for him to be training. As for going to the police, that is a very personal choice that only you alone can make but if you do go them make certain that you have people around you that can help and support you. You may also want to consider contacting a rape crisis center or similar organizations to. (Again no expert, just what I have been trained to say as part of voluntary work.)

Remember, what happened to you was not your fault. That guy did not respect you when you implied that it was not a situation you where not willing to engage in. Do not blame yourself for what happened.

Whatever happens and what you decide, well I for one wish the best of luck for the outcome. If you feel able to please let us know the outcome.

MikeLogan 01-22-2008 11:07 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Most people I know, myself included, practice aikido as a means to protect ourselves, with some thought to spare the expense of unnecessary bodily harm to an attacker out of respect for their humanity. Your practice of aikido has led you to be attacked through your former sempai's abuse of your trust. That's should have been the opposite of your instructor's goals for both persons A and B.

It is obvious you can no longer interact with this guy on or off the mat as a matter of sincere defence of yourself. Are there other women in your dojo. Are they at risk of being lured to his flat? Do you feel any obligation to prevent some interaction between another woman and he that you have already experienced to be threatening?

From what you say it sounds as though you think you could have fared worse in the situation. Perhaps it's your culture to let men off easy, or for men to let other men off easy, or simply to be mentally resillient. And right now you may feel hesitant about grabbing the tiger's tail and telling sensei. If you don't have the community support to go about your daily life reasonably secure from some action of reprisal, then yes, I can understand a bit of the trouble you find yourself in. Be careful!
Quote:

Anon wrote:
I am really not sure, if "person B" has to be banned, because this happened outside the dojo.

No, he doesn't have to be banned, he just has to be made to realize how much more likely 'accidents' may occur in his general direction.

Anonymous 01-23-2008 09:05 AM

Re: What to do ?
 
I dared to write an E-Mail and send it to Sensei. I really needed a long time for that. Don't know, how he will react, but at least now there is someone else in that dojo who knows, what was going on. Before that I felt that in a strange way I shared a secret with "person B".

Derek 01-24-2008 07:54 AM

Re: What to do ?
 
Just to add a thought...

I agree with what has been said about "slimeball boy." One aspect that is not being accepted by the victum and assumed by everyone else is that what happens off the mat impacts what happens on the mat. This needs to be stated more directly.

We speak of training in aikido and then "taking it with us" into the real world, but the opposite is true that you carry your sins with you. To me, it is not a given that a student who pays the fees should be allowed to train. Every student is a reflection on the dojo and the sensei. It they image they reflect is not what the dojo and the sensei wished reflected than they should not train. The "right" to train at a given dojo is really a privilege that can be taken away due to bad behavior, which this case seems to qualify for. Kick him to the curb.

RK from the Y 01-24-2008 09:56 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
[quote=...But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ?...[/QUOTE]

Where did you get this noble idea that aikido or any MA can educate or reform violent or overly aggressive people? These people have better chances of reform in a yoga or meditation class than in a dojo. Some go to the dojo to become better "fighters". Majority of these people who fantasize about fighting in the "real world" will somehow end up in an aikido dojo. They always "win" either as a nage or as an uke. They are not interested in the ethical context of the art. They do not buy into the spiritual size of the art. They will stop you in track if you bring up ethics or spiritualism. They will say, "Don't bring up O'Sensei. He is dead and gone and he was not my teacher".

Mind you, some of these guys are also instructors who see Aikido as a commodity that they can market. They will tell you about their marketing skill selling their brand of aikido to the "targeted" customers. They will brack about the number of dojo they operate and the number of students they have. Most of the students are spawns of the teachers; some of the most egotistical and arrogrant you will meet. They are right about having the right marketing plans.

Look around, you might be in one of these dojo.

Buyers beware!!

Regards

RK

Anonymous 01-25-2008 02:58 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

Where did you get this noble idea that aikido or any MA can educate or reform violent or overly aggressive people? These people have better chances of reform in a yoga or meditation class than in a dojo.
I think, it's as if you want to give medicine to a child, you need to mix it with some sugar. It's the same with some people. Yoga, Qigong, Dancing, Role play would be much better, but they are not interest in things, if there is nothing "martial" in them.

akiy 01-25-2008 03:00 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Hi folks,

Please let's stay on-topic in regards to the original poster's topic. If you wish to discuss an off-topic subject, please start a new thread.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Anonymous 01-27-2008 01:56 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Talked to Sensei today. He did believe me, He said, that things might have been less dramatic than I told him, but of course somehow dramatic and what B did was no good at all. He will talk to B first, then B, Sensei and I shall have a talk (that's the ususal way to solve conflicts). Then he will inform the other trainers and we'll try to find a way to make it possible for me, to take part in training without training with B. It's annoying for me, that Sensei somehow tells me, how I shall feel about this. He asked me, how I feel, but also told me, that it wouldn't be too bad for me, nothing I couldn't forget, since it was no rape and that surely counseling would be exaggerated. Well, he's a man, he cannot understand that this was not really something completely different from rape for me. At the moment B is doing Aikido every day, and I did'nt go to the dojo since weeks, because he is there.
I think I need to give up that dojo, but first I'm going to fight for my right, to be there as well.

Anonymous 01-27-2008 02:07 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
No, what I wrote, sounds a bit wrong: We talked a lot about B and how I and Sensei do feel about him. We both decided, that he is worth not to give him up (I did write that post about medicine and sugar). But I do feel, there are only two real possibilities for me: Either to train, and to train with B as well, or not to train at all. It's simply too difficult to organize that we don't partner up. I don't want everybody to know what happened, and it would be weird, if were in the same training lesson not partner up. Everybody would think or say: "Come on, you two go off the mat, talk and solve your problems".
Don't know, how Sensei will talk to B. I don't really believe, that B wants to talk to me in Senseis presence. If I really want to talk with him depends on how he reacts to Sensei and what he tells him.

gdandscompserv 01-27-2008 03:07 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Find another dojo.

Walter Martindale 01-27-2008 06:18 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 198048)
Find another dojo.

You sound REALLY uncomfortable with the dojo you're in so I'll quote Ricky Wood....

Find Another Dojo.

Michael Hackett 01-27-2008 08:03 PM

Re: What to do ?
 
Dear Anonymous,

I don't know where you're from or your local culture, so I can only view your situation from my own perspective. Your teacher's comments suggest to me that you and your concerns are being discounted significantly. If he thinks your interest in counseling is "exaggerated" and that you're really OK because you weren't actually raped, then he is way off base, at least in my viewpoint.

Ricky Wood summed it up perfectly - leave and find another dojo. This isn't a healthy environment to train in. You may certainly have the right to train where you are, but what is the point? How can you possibly train with joy and confidence, knowing what you do about your own situation? Find a healthier place to train.

Best wishes.


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