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-   -   What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23688)

bicatlinh 06-22-2014 01:16 PM

What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
what is the correct way to grip the uke hand when we do the kote gaeshi?
And which kind of kote gaeshi below here is better? I have 2 sensei at my dojo and both studied the different style, 1 is aikikai and 1 is shishiya-nishio. I often get confused and don't know which is better to do and to learn? I just want to stick to 1 to get a the good habit.

shishiya- nishio way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpK2C4H8OR8

aikikai one ... I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg

In addition, how the leg should move? step back or step in front in order not to get hit by uke's free hand?
Thank you so much!

Ethan Weisgard 07-27-2014 06:32 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Hello Phuong Vu,

The correct way of using the hand in kote gaeshi is the way the given Sensei is showing it ;-)
Each Sensei has his / her reasons for doing it their way. I am from the Iwama lineage, and the NY Aikikai form that you have shown in the second clip is very much like the way we do it - there are small differences in body posture and the height that we do the kote geashi from (we try to keep our hand / uke's hand in front of our center when throwing), but the points that the instructor is making regarding hand placement etc. is very much like the Iwama form. If you look carefully, the Shishiya Sensei form is the same, once he gets to the actual kote gaeshi. The entrance (tai sabaki) is different - this tai sabaki is very characteristic of the Nishio Sensei lineage. They have their reasons for moving this way, that are very much based on the sword work that is used in this style.
So when training in dojos where there are different forms being shown by different Sensei - do Aikido: awase! Go with the flow. There is a saying in Japanese: "II toko tori": take the good parts ;-)

In aiki,
Ethan

sakumeikan 07-27-2014 06:58 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Phuong Vu wrote: (Post 337754)
what is the correct way to grip the uke hand when we do the kote gaeshi?
And which kind of kote gaeshi below here is better? I have 2 sensei at my dojo and both studied the different style, 1 is aikikai and 1 is shishiya-nishio. I often get confused and don't know which is better to do and to learn? I just want to stick to 1 to get a the good habit.

shishiya- nishio way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpK2C4H8OR8

aikikai one ... I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg

In addition, how the leg should move? step back or step in front in order not to get hit by uke's free hand?
Thank you so much!

Dear Phuong, full
Of the two vids shown my preference is New York.The other video is a bit sloppy.No control of Uke in the pin down.The Sensei also uses his palm on ukes wrist, very little control here I fear.He also misses the kote gaeshi [at the start]and uses ude gaeshi. Just my views here, Cheers, Joe.

kewms 07-27-2014 10:42 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.

In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them.

Katherine

PeterR 07-27-2014 11:58 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 338609)
If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.

In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them.

Katherine

Just to cause trouble - I was using the forearm.

Cavate - there is no CORRECT hand placement.

kewms 07-27-2014 12:03 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 338610)
Just to cause trouble - I was using the forearm.

Cavate - there is no CORRECT hand placement.

Oh, I agree. I often have students use the forearm in order to help them understand that it's *not* about torquing on the wrist.

Katherine

PeterR 07-27-2014 12:53 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 338611)
Oh, I agree. I often have students use the forearm in order to help them understand that it's *not* about torquing on the wrist.

Katherine

Laughs - I should have been clearer. I was applying the kotegeishi using a combination of one of my hands and my forearm.

kewms 07-27-2014 02:22 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 338612)
Laughs - I should have been clearer. I was applying the kotegeishi using a combination of one of my hands and my forearm.

Ah. Yes, I noticed that in some of the examples.

Just to be clear about what I meant: I don't worry too much about either exact placement on uke's hand/forearm or the body part that nage uses to accomplish the turnover. If the body is in the right place it doesn't matter, and if it's not, manipulating uke's hand won't help.

Katherine

Janet Rosen 07-27-2014 02:33 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 338612)
Laughs - I should have been clearer. I was applying the kotegeishi using a combination of one of my hands and my forearm.

I find I use one hand to get the attacker's hand in the approx grasp I want, but the imbalancing and throw comes from my body movement and I use my forearm cutting up along uke's forearm to guide uke's trajectory and if possible by cutting up at the last moment to start turning him face down before his wt is on the mat.

PeterR 07-27-2014 02:35 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 338613)
Ah. Yes, I noticed that in some of the examples.

Just to be clear about what I meant: I don't worry too much about either exact placement on uke's hand/forearm or the body part that nage uses to accomplish the turnover. If the body is in the right place it doesn't matter, and if it's not, manipulating uke's hand won't help.

Katherine

That is another interesting point - small hand fold/return demands some sort of wrist maneuver. Playing terminology boy here but if you are manipulating the forearm we Shodokan types call it a Hiji waza or elbow manipulation - which includes the fabled ikkyo.

I think you can bring someone down in a kotegeishi-esque maneuver on the forearm but you are dealing with an entirely different joint.

PeterR 07-27-2014 02:52 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 338615)
I find I use one hand to get the attacker's hand in the approx grasp I want, but the imbalancing and throw comes from my body movement and I use my forearm cutting up along uke's forearm to guide uke's trajectory and if possible by cutting up at the last moment to start turning him face down before his wt is on the mat.

Oh and yes. Everything is body movement and positioning. No argument there.

Cliff Judge 07-27-2014 02:58 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 338616)
That is another interesting point - small hand fold/return demands some sort of wrist maneuver. Playing terminology boy here but if you are manipulating the forearm we Shodokan types call it a Hiji waza or elbow manipulation - which includes the fabled ikkyo.

Interesting. Lately I have been thinking of the kote as, actually, the forearm. I guess I have been seeing kotegaeshi as an elbow manipulation this whole time. When people go for the wrist itself it is like, it may hurt, but it never really seems to get use's balance unless you are moving the elbow around too.

PeterR 07-27-2014 03:06 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 338618)
Interesting. Lately I have been thinking of the kote as, actually, the forearm. I guess I have been seeing kotegaeshi as an elbow manipulation this whole time. When people go for the wrist itself it is like, it may hurt, but it never really seems to get use's balance unless you are moving the elbow around too.

Now this gets interesting. The Kote as explained to me has included the region from the center of the palm and includes the forearm (but not the elbow). In kendo the Kote is the glove which covers that region. Kote is not just the wrist and a strike to the Kote is to the region covered by the Kote.

I think an applied kotegeishi will affect the wrist first followed by the elbow followed by the shoulder and so on. This speaks again to the points raised by Janet and Katherine - where the true power comes from body movement and placement. I guess what we are talking about is where the energy transfer begins.

kewms 07-27-2014 03:09 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 338618)
Interesting. Lately I have been thinking of the kote as, actually, the forearm. I guess I have been seeing kotegaeshi as an elbow manipulation this whole time. When people go for the wrist itself it is like, it may hurt, but it never really seems to get use's balance unless you are moving the elbow around too.

I would agree. We've spent a lot of class time over the last few months trying to expunge the most common bad kotegaeshi variations, and a lot of them seem to derive from overemphasis on the wrist.

Katherine

Mary Eastland 07-27-2014 05:06 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
For me, it depends on my uke...some ways work better with certain ukes than others. I like having variations in my toolkit so I can respond to the uke and the circumstances.

Adam Huss 07-27-2014 05:23 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 338621)
For me, it depends on my uke...some ways work better with certain ukes than others. I like having variations in my toolkit so I can respond to the uke and the circumstances.

Are you talking about uke you know, or you respond differently in a dynamic way for uke as they come in with their attack?

robin_jet_alt 07-27-2014 06:22 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

kewms wrote:
Oh, I agree. I often have students use the forearm in order to help them understand that it's *not* about torquing on the wrist.

Katherine

I don't think we should get overly caught up on semantics. The aim of the wrist lock is to create a tight connection between yourself and your uke through the arm. If you can do that without torquing the wrist, then I don't have a problem with it.

Quote:

kewms wrote:
If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.

In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them.

Katherine

I agree. This aspect is something that Shishiya sensei is very aware of.

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 338607)
Dear Phuong, full
Of the two vids shown my preference is New York.The other video is a bit sloppy.No control of Uke in the pin down.The Sensei also uses his palm on ukes wrist, very little control here I fear.He also misses the kote gaeshi [at the start]and uses ude gaeshi. Just my views here, Cheers, Joe.

I feel I should probably defend Shishiya sensei a bit here. He deliberately omits the wrist technique in order to demonstrate that hurting the wrist is not necessary to achieve an effective takedown with kotegaeshi. I have received his technique and I can vouch that it is certainly effective. Very difficult, often overly complicated, in many cases not the way I would do things, yet when he does it, it is effective. Although I don't train in his style any more, there are plenty of things that I have taken away from my year and a bit of training with him.

sakumeikan 07-28-2014 03:08 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Robin Boyd wrote: (Post 338623)
I don't think we should get overly caught up on semantics. The aim of the wrist lock is to create a tight connection between yourself and your uke through the arm. If you can do that without torquing the wrist, then I don't have a problem with it.

I agree. This aspect is something that Shishiya sensei is very aware of.

I feel I should probably defend Shishiya sensei a bit here. He deliberately omits the wrist technique in order to demonstrate that hurting the wrist is not necessary to achieve an effective takedown with kotegaeshi. I have received his technique and I can vouch that it is certainly effective. Very difficult, often overly complicated, in many cases not the way I would do things, yet when he does it, it is effective. Although I don't train in his style any more, there are plenty of things that I have taken away from my year and a bit of training with him.

Dear Robin,
We have here a situation whereby we the readers watch a video posted such as the kote gaeshi vids. Unfortunately we cannot judge whether the kote gaeshi is effective/painful/forced or whatever.We only see the the waza , we cannot feel the waza.Also the other aspect is the mindset of the participants.By this I mean this.Is Tori cranking on the waza?Is Uke compliant /resistant/awkward ?So any criticism may well be flawed ,unless of course the waza is either well done or poorly executed.At the end of the day the only way to know if any waza is ok is to experience it.
cheers, Joe.

Adam Huss 07-28-2014 10:06 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Yeah, we can only comment on what we see....its not the perfect scenario but its a little better than just text descriptions without any visual reference.

jonreading 07-28-2014 11:29 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
The correct grip is the grip that sensei demonstrates. From there, you have the best opportunity to feel the joint manipulation, which in my opinion, is quite varied in the kotegaeshi kata. Seminars are a great opportunity to see variety and get hands-on.

From an instructional perspective, I have taught kotegaeshi as a corner drop (sumi otoshi) with a wrist control (kote gaeshi). We have a few rules:
1. The wrist twist should apply sufficient torsion to prevent uke from turning into nage and you should apply torsion upon gaining the wrist.
2. Any lateral movement should maintain the center of the technique.
3. The bulk of the throw is committed through the corner drop, not twisting wrist (the twisting is just to maintain the torsion in unity with the body movement)

I made these rules because, my opinion, the most common kata failures are:
1. Nage waits until the end of the technique to twist uke's wrist to make them fall down.
2. In stepping, nage loses the "center" of the technique and creates a mutual orbit for both partners.
3. Nage envisions the fruition of the technique is derived from the joint manipulation (and over-focuses on the wrist).

To Cliff's point, I am fond of using the forearm because it relieves the pressure of ukemi for students who are not comfortable with wrist-twisting and it requires the kata to work absent joint manipulation. Also, there is a segment of the training population that reinforces how stupid it is to try twisting a wrist on a participant who is less-than-willing.

robin_jet_alt 07-28-2014 07:37 PM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 338624)
Dear Robin,
We have here a situation whereby we the readers watch a video posted such as the kote gaeshi vids. Unfortunately we cannot judge whether the kote gaeshi is effective/painful/forced or whatever.We only see the the waza , we cannot feel the waza.Also the other aspect is the mindset of the participants.By this I mean this.Is Tori cranking on the waza?Is Uke compliant /resistant/awkward ?So any criticism may well be flawed ,unless of course the waza is either well done or poorly executed.At the end of the day the only way to know if any waza is ok is to experience it.
cheers, Joe.

Absolutely :)

reza.n 07-29-2014 03:13 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
I'm practicing aikido aikikai, I should mention these two videos are not comparable. The aikikai one (by Mike Jones) is just demonstration of very basic Kotegaeshi and the other one is about variation of kotegaeshi, which it was really helpful for me (I appreciate it).
In aikido clips and variation of techniques don't try to compare but try to feel the differences and learn different forms of a single technique. I always see it this way.

phitruong 07-29-2014 08:15 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
first order of the business is the entry. do you focus on the wrist, the forearm, or the elbow? if uke punches and pulls back, instead of the usual aikido punch and leave the arm out there, what would be the entry and the focus of nage? that entry determines your hands placement. for me, up until i drive uke elbow into his hips and pin his feet in place, i haven't decide which technique to use yet. it could be shihonage, kaiten nage, iriminage, hijinage, elbow-in-the-face-and-leg-sweep nage, kissingnage, and whatevernage. then the torquing of the wrist, which i don't much care for, because it ties up both my hands. i prefer to have one of the hands somewhat free so that if uke gives me problem, then i will show uke a series of rather vicious elbow sequence i learned from a striking art. oh wait! we suppose to have love and harmony with aikido right? damn! look like i need to work on some more loving! :)

kewms 07-29-2014 10:41 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 338636)
first order of the business is the entry. do you focus on the wrist, the forearm, or the elbow?

None of the above. The focus is always uke's center. An atemi to the face or ribs makes pretty much any technique easier to accomplish.

Katherine

PeterR 07-29-2014 11:30 AM

Re: What is the correct hand placement when do kote gaeshi?
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 338638)
None of the above. The focus is always uke's center. An atemi to the face or ribs makes pretty much any technique easier to accomplish.

Katherine

Kotegaishi needs kuzushi to work. If you accomplish that with atemi I can think of better things to do than switch to that particular technique.


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