Re: The Empty Body
Graham, et al;
The discussion of anatomy primarily comes up in online discussions about IP/IS training methodologies (e.g. Dan Harden, Mike Sigman) because people keep trying to dissect things from armchairs hither and thither. The methodologies don't focus on these details. If fact, Dan gets frustrated that people want to digest everything in Anatomy Trains, for example, to better understand what inside the body does the work (and in any methodology discussed in this thread or elsewhere, of course the bones, muscles, fascia, etc. are technically in play) when the work is fundamentally about intent leading energy which manifests various qualities in the body that translate into superlative leverage, cancellation of incoming force, etc. Dan has repeatedly said during workshops that Tohei's model is a fine baseline for aiki development that fits within a more comprehensive schema of training methods within and descended from Daito-ryu. In fact, I recall watching a YouTube video in which a Daito-ryu instructor says he thinks of his body as . . . an "empty shell" when executing certain techniques. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Tohei's for example is nothing to do with such methods and come from shin shin toitsu. However, glad to hear some have also mentioned experiencing what I point out in this thread. Peace.G. |
Re: The Empty Body
Surely Tohei's methods don't come from Shin Shin Toitsu. Tohei created Shin Shin Toitsu.
So where do you think Tohei's methods came from? Ueshiba? He made them up? Elsewhere? |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Peace.G. |
Re: The Empty Body
As an additive Hugh the correct term would be shin shin toitsu do. Japanese Yoga.
Peace.G. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
|
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Once again I think it is just something given too much significance and no perspective. This alone leads to such statements as you give above. There is solo and there is joint or with others. They are interdependent. In fact in anything you do you will find there is sequence, one follows the other. Every serious practitioner and indeed every athlete or anyone practices solo as well as with others. As Aikido is an art in which action is 'with others' ie: opponents, then I think that puts the balance back into such statements. As I said, Tihei practiced shin shin toitsu, a solo practice. Ueshiba studied Omoto, a solo practice. All great past masters studied some such be it zazen or whatever. Many solo practices and that's not including when you get stuck and go away trying to work it out....yet another solo practice. Peace.G. |
Re: The Empty Body
So to add to the above both Tohei and Ueshiba did solo practices. Ueshiba - Omoto and the Kotodama and Tohei -shin shin toitsu do.
So both did deep spiritual solo practices which shaped their Aikido. Peace.G. |
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
Naturally, paired training is inherent: whether strictly regarding waza/kata, and/or to test the qualities of aiki/ki development.
In any case, history clearly shows that Ueshiba and Tohei's solo practice was heavily, perhaps primarily influenced by the spiritual practices you outlined, Graham. But given that aikido directly derives from Daito-ryu, that art's influence on aikido's solo and paired training methods cannot be discounted any more than the debt owed to the latter's technical syllabus. The key point is that using the spirit/mind to lead ki in accordance with in and yo is common to multiple training methodologies expressly targeted at developing ability to use aiki in Daito-ryu and aikido, and the primary, common goal today is to improve one's self and have a positive influence on others through such practice. Tohei's time in Hawaii has had lasting, strong effects here. I'm comfortable with what I've said above, given that those folks who've I've trained with who've followed both the IP/IS methodologies as well as Tohei's agree they are symbiotic. There's my 2 pence for the sake of promoting ai/harmony regarding this topic. |
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
Thank you for your reflections Mert.
Peace.G. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
The consensus seems to be that he took rather little of his training methods from O-Sensei. Alex |
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
Mert, these are some great points.
I've been cooking for a long time. Pretty seriously. Here recently I wanted to make rice pudding, and realized I didn't know how. I can usually throw things together, and they come out great. This was a different story. I started with some eggs, milk, rice, sugar, vanilla...came out like crap. My model for rice pudding was what I experienced in NYC at Jewish Delis. I did something I don't often do, and looked up some recipes. People had all sorts of things... even the kitchen sink. I did run into one comment on a forum that basically said, "You've got to understand the process, and allow the rice and milk to really hang out and get to know each other - and become something else." So, I simplified things. Just low heat, rice and milk. Then after things were nice and thick, I added sugar. I nailed it on the third try. And what I "nailed" was the experience and the texture of eating rice pudding from a Jewish deli. The point is, all I needed was the intention to match or exceed the texture I'd already experienced. And in this case that "model" that particularly impressed me was from eating rice pudding in a particular deli in '82. The point being, to relate this to internal training, is that all these parts - muscles, tendons, fascia, etc. have not only nothing to do with anything, they serve as a huge distraction. Power is intrinsic. We don't "get" power. It's already present. And it's not Japanese or Chinese or concealed in language or kanji or some historical "esoteric writings." Power is living. It's right here, right now. And it will clearly show itself on the surface. Even Nishio would say, "You already know this, I'm just reminding you." I'm totally fine with a few different parts to learn to understand something... low, middle, high - height, width, depth - inside, outside - above, below. But past that, once we start dissecting, and getting lost in, not only moving static parts, but moving processes - it becomes an exercise in navel-gazing and tail chasing - and adding when we should be subtracting. We always have to come back to, and keep in mind, the whole and our original intention and purpose. Have you ever noticed the difference between products that are designed by good designers, and products that are designed by programmers? There's a huge difference. Programmers get lost in the parts and what they can do. Designers approach something from the end-users experience. Good designs are always powerful, simple, elegant. If you look too deeply into the well - you fall in. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Mitori-geiko: the great historical differentiator in traditional budo teaching. Clearly all of Sokaku Takeda's best students were proficient in it, as were the best of Ueshiba's, in particular Tohei. All of these standouts operated within a similar technical syllabus and gleaned and/or developed solo training methods compatible with it. This is the bigger picture. Daito-ryu is in many ways unlike preceding/contemporary bujutsu/budo. In turn, aikido, as a whole, is a bit different in flavor from, though clearly technically indebted to the various Daito-ryu(ha), as a whole. Neither Takeda nor Ueshiba insisted on their students following a rigid syllabus. Evolution and personal interpretation that still hold true to the central principles of the system, i.e. those principles that support these arts' eponymous skill -- aiki -- were clearly lauded by both men: e.g. the regard in which Ueshiba held Tohei's understanding and interpretation of aikido. There are precious few people alive who've had the honor and opportunity to train with both Ueshiba and Tohei. My understanding is that at least two still reside in Hawaii, and one has already weighed in, saying that what Dan Harden is doing is in line with the aiki of Ueshiba. While I don't know this gentleman's specific take regarding what Dan is teaching relative to what Tohei expressed regarding aiki, if Ueshiba felt Tohei was on track regarding aiki, and people of the Tohei lineage here feel that IP/IS methodology (Dan's per se) is compatible with what Tohei taught, then all these data points support a clear relationship between the various methodologies, allowing for differences in flavor that would've been acceptable to Takeda and Ueshiba. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Carry on. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Tohei later claimed to have learned little from Ueshiba - but I wonder if that was true, or it was just part of the dance of hurt feelings that went back and forth among the involved parties. It was my impression that the Tempukai provided the framework through which Tohei understood (as much as he did) Ueshiba's "stuff", not that it provided the "stuff" itself, but opinions will certainly vary. Best, Chris |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
|
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
Quote:
That's why I feel fortunate to live in Hawaii, where we have the rare opportunity to get first-hand accounts from those who've felt Ueshiba's and Tohei's aiki, and who are still available to vet any pretenders to those levels and qualities of martial ability who care to let their wares be sampled. |
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
Quote:
|
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
I have been studying with a gentleman who fits that bill since 1988 (Imaizumi Sensei). It is beyond comical when people who have no real history or affiliation with Tohei Sensei, or O'Sensei begin to tell us what these two men did, said, or meant. These same people also seem to have an affinity for talking about what Dan Harden does or does not do without ever having met him, let alone trained with him. I simply ignore the "white noise" from those who claim things that is obviously beyond what they should ever claim, and continue to train with Imaizumi Sensei and Dan Harden. Like you, reality speaks a lot louder than the chatter in some people's posts. Regards, Marc Abrams |
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
Yes, Mert, there are those who have felt, and experienced, and know the difference between the "K's" and the "A's." And I mean real "K's" - meaning "Constantinople," not the new ones with the big K decal on them.
Have people "felt" Ueshiba or Tohei, or any one of their "K" students? Because they both had "K" students and "A" students. Shoji Nishio was not only a "K" student of both Ueshiba and Tohei, but many of the top artists of the 20th century - including Yasuhiro Konishi, Shigenori Sano, and Takaji Shimizu. It's surprising as the curtain comes up, and the propaganda machine breaks down, how many shihan and high-dan-ranked aikidoka, are, in fact, "A." There are "K's" out there. But you've gotta listen, and, like you said - have tasted it, felt it, experienced it - to know the difference. |
Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training
In rereading my post up above I said "Just expansion ...". In retrospect I suppose someone could read that as minimizing it. Not at all intended. It was great fun, challenging, elucidating, and like most good training each little discovery, each little new skill, each new "eye opener" gives rise to a whole new set of things to wonder about.
And then I rewatched videos of Tohei, Ueshiba, etc. (thanks Stan!) this morning. There's that cool stuff in various places, amounts and "styles". I do find it interesting that a couple of folk from our group didn't see any real conflicts or inconsistencies but were just excited to have a whole new toolbox of stuff to try and a whole lot of new stuff to work on. It's kind of like suddenly getting a chance to relive a joyful process. Others I know from some other lineages (in my experience, at least) sometimes seem to find it harder to accept. That doesn't mean it's harder to do, or easier to do for anyone, just that the comfort of the"fit" seems to vary a bit from group to group. And then there's those who have it all figured out already so it doesn't really matter what you put in front of them. Because they've long ago figured it out. And maybe they're right... Can't say... I just follow my own perceptions. So I keep going... |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
|
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
Do you ever visit Hawaii? If so, you should come out when Dan Harden's here and compare notes. Personally, I'd enjoying participating in the comparing, and talking music with you (Dan's a musician as well). |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
I think, say in half a decade from now, it'll be a lot easier for IP/IS folks to take just about anyone who's passionate about aikido's martial aspects, assuming that person is half-interested in participating in the process, and map his/her current approach to the art; to Ueshiba's, Tohei's, et al's (pick proven aiki exponent of choice) methods and philosophies; to the IP/IS interpretations and logical roadmap for training in a manner that positively influences that person's approach to the art. If someone is a spiritual person, and seeks to further that aspect of himself/herself through training, then the clarity of the IP/IS approach, if anything, removes clutter that gets in the way of this aspect of "the way". Then, add another half decade further out, and it won't be about IP/IS as distinct from aikido anymore in the corners of the art where IP/IS has long proved its validity -- whether during encounters when those seeking to experience the art graciously accept invitations to do so, or when they try to kick the door in. |
Re: The Empty Body
Quote:
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:11 AM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.