Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
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TANG HAO (1897-1959), also known as Tang Fansheng, native of Wu County in Jiangsu Province, famous martial arts historian. Born in a poor family, Tang was fond of literature and martial arts since childhood. After coming to Shanghai he worked as principal of Shang'gong Primary School; in Shanghai Tang learnt Six Harmonies Boxing (Liuhequan) from Liu Zhen'nan. Later he also studied Xingyiquan and Taijiquan from Li Cunyi and Chen Fake. In 1927, suspected of being a Communist Party member, Tang was arrested but then, thanks to Zhu Guofu's help, released. The same year Tang went to Japan to study political science and law; in Japan he learnt Judo, Ken-jutsu and other arts. After returning to China Tang hold a post of editorial department director at Central Martial Arts Academy (Zhongyang Guoshu Guan); in 1930 he led a Central Martial Arts Academy representation (incl. Zhu Guofu, Yang Songshan and others) to Japan on a tour of investigation; in 1936 Tang was defending Gu Liuxin and others in court (Gu and others were suspected of being involved in "Seven Gentlemen" case). In 1941, since Tang was still active as a lawyer in spite of the Japanese invasion, he was caught by Japanese soldiers, whipped and chased away to Anhui Province. After liberation in 1949 Tang Hao returned to Shanghai and was appointed to many posts in political and sports organizations; in 1955 Tang was appointed an advisor position with the China State Sports Committee. Tang Hao wrote many books and articles on the history of martial arts and is considered a pioneer of the history of Chinese Martial Arts and Chinese sport. Tang became especially famous for his research on the history of Taijiquan - after examining Taiji classics, Chen clan manuals, family chronicles and other text, Tang Hao draw a conclusion that Taijiquan was created/compiled by Chen Wangting of Chenjiagou Village in Henan Province. At the same time he rejected traditional view of Zhang Sanfeng as the creator of Taiji Boxing." [emphasis added] http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/ta...ngmanuals.html |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
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I'm the one that responded first and said "It can't be proved. The only ones who truly know are all dead.;) What we have is only historical ties, which seem rather logical. Instead of jumping through hoops to make connections that have NO evidance whatsoever, we at least have a solid and proved connection to Takeda. And evidence that Ueshiba's DR peers who trained with Takeda and Uehsiba had the same skills if not better. I'm sick of arguing it myself. It so damn logical its ridiculous. Instead we "look" for other sources that have that have little to zero connecting proof. But we see what we want to see I suppose WHat is facinating is that Ueshiba gave credit, and never mentioned other sources. and all those around him kept pointing to Takeda as the source. You'd think some other guy who taught him would have told someone about it since Ueshiba become so famous. And you'd think Ueshiba had trained, with someone else who'd know. Of course he continued to train on his own and make discoveries. That's not the issue. Ths issue is where he got it from and just what exactly he was doing. All parties privey to that knowledge are dead. Sorry Ellis. |
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
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And I'm sorry as well to have contributed to the diversion of the thread, so I'll step off now. I know others will continue, though. :rolleyes: |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
This thread kind of reminds me of people arguing that there is only one path to the top of Mt. Everest.
I think that we all can assume that there is some underlying level of Ki/Jin that people need to be able to display in order to perform an art to a level that people would describe as being an "internal art." I would argue that there needs to be some baseline natural physical abilities that a person would have to have. That person would then have to be exposed to good teaching in how to develop that "internal capacity." That person would have to practice those skills diligently. This would seem to apply regardless of the art being studied. I think one of Stanley Pranin's greatest contributions to our art has been that he exposed us, via the Aiki Expos, to other arts, some without any link to D.R., which reflected deep understanding in, and ability to utilize those "internal principles." I would think that it would not matter if my training came from Ushiro Sensei, the head of Systema, Koroda Sensei, my main teacher, Kondo Sensei, Mike, or Dan. As long as I was able to further develop my "internal skill sets" and could then apply them to my execution of Aikido, what difference would it make if I had never studied D.R.. I agree with Mike that this has become a fruitless argument. I would much rather learn from some of you how you evolved to where you have gotten and how that has changed your ability to do your chosen art. The overlap of the skill sets that I find in many of these accomplished martial artists with a high level of Ki/Jin development is what I look for in helping in my development in Aikido. Many of you have much to offer us in this regards. Marc Abrams |
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
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http://www.crackerjack.com/games.php |
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You appear to be confusing me with Mike, or confusing my argument against one proposition with an argument in favor of another one. Any assertions I've made in the past have been considerably more limited than the one you reference, based on academic and/or practical experience of the distinct training methods I'm discussing, and informed by a decade of study of East Asian languages. None of which speaks to what anyone else may or may not bring to their assertions. Best, FL |
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The thing that most plainly distinguishes O Sensei's art from DTR technically from my perspective, and post-dates his DTR training, certainly in the eyes of his son and in the words of his father on the realization of aikido is "...the old form of the posture in kenjutsu." While some have emphasized that Daito was a complete art together with sword forms, O Sensei specifically uses that phrase to describe the advent of Aikido, and his son, in The Spirit of Aikido, specifically distinguishes the admixture of the sword principles as the the key technical factor in the evolution. He ascribes his father's sword work mainly to Shinkage, which the experience of aikido and the reference to the "old form of the posture in kenjutsu" suggests is a natural fit to the sensibilities of the Yagyu muto techniques and the doctrine of katsujinto. [deep breath again] (as an collateral aside to Amdur on a point he has tried to correct here before -- Wikipedia still has O Sensei being granted menkyo kaiden by Masakatsu in 1908 -- you may wish to edit it or comment) Now what I think: It is the attention to "form" and "posture" in this description that interests me in regard to the other word that many (including Amdur) have mentioned as their desire or goal -- "Power" -- power as they perceive O Sensei to have had power. And therein lies what I believe is a great misunderstanding of what Doshu's project was about. The internal arts perspective of ki development as a change in the body's substantial neuro-physiological makeup may well be correct; it may also not be what the art is, exactly. Making a tougher, more responsive body clearly makes for more power. But form is power also. And strength of form is superior to strength of material. Those are lessons of the sword as well as the architect. Ellis Amdur very charitably addresses the problem set for Doshu at his father's death. As a sixteen year-old high school kid he played mediator to prominent Nationalists with whom his father philosophically disagreed during the War years. That was not a place to put a person whose basic temperament was -- unsubtle -- or lacking in careful thought. The means he sought to translate that intent had to be couched in a manner that was perceptible and attractive to a audience, in Japan and around the world, that was, at best, initially likely to be indifferent to it. O Sensei dealt in some fairly esoteric, even idiosyncratic material concepts (even for modern Japanese). In attempting to formulate a means by which to make the proverbial "it" accessible to such a wide audience he had to answer some basic questions about the nature of the fidelity he would maintain: 1) Did those who followed O Sensei have to essentially duplicate his training journey or praxis, and 2) Did they have to replicate his personal understanding and concepts, all in order to arrive at substantially the result intended by O Sensei for his followers on the path of aikido. Plainly, a merely rote fidelity (however great a task that may have been) might have accomplished preservation of the bones of a few of the things that Ellis Amdur is looking for. I do not think that is the kind of fidelity Doshu decided on. O Sensei's dispensing with anything like a kata-type presentation in his teaching made plain it was not his intent to transmit it that way (if not impossible to derive secondarily). Pranin and Ellis Amdur seem to agree on that. On the strength of what takemusu aiki purports to represent, I do not believe that O Sensei intended rote fidelity. He certainly did not make it possible or very probable to acheive, either. My question about Doshu and his task of developing aikido and spreading it, is whether there is anything intended by O Sensei to be kept that is "lost" in the art transmitted by his son in the sense that Ellis Amdur seems to mean. In other words, is it the lack of knowledge, or a lack of practice that causes the present problem of "lesser" seeming aikido in some places these days. I tend to the latter and conclude that more practice leads to less problem. Expanding the art to the great mass of people results inevitably in the spread of dilettantish practice (at times - Guilty). So, more practice. If O Sensei had one motto it would be "Practice!" Kata represent attempts to "code" the essence of an art. Doshu was left with no "code," and likely no way to "code" aikido in any traditional manner. Aikido is, in informational terms, very hard to code. That is to say, there is not any very obvious way to represent it rigorously in terms that are less than the whole of what it is. The variety and proliferation of attempts to code it by many exceedingly gifted students of the Founder, from many different perspectives, only prove the point. Form and perception of form of a variable dynamic but clearly identifiable type is what Doshu expounded as the basis from which the creativity of techniques could spring -- from practice, not a secret formula or reducible knowledge. "Not being spoon fed," the knowledge comes intuitively from the form of action and from no other place. That does not make it easy, but that also does not mean that there was any simpler way to do what Doshu set about doing. DTR techniques are the part of the rubric in which this essential form was laid originally, as are the weapons curricula of Saito or Saotome, and the basis for the ki explorations of Tohei. Given Ellis's initial plea to the Virgin, he may well understand when I say that while the rubric is always there and may change -- it should never be mistaken for the liturgy that never changes -- but is always new. The form is to join oneself in one body with the opponent -- and from this to join all things within your perception as one body -- and this is aikido and nothing more. That does not tell you how to put into practice, of course. Many people initially have grave difficulty making a collection of their own limbs into one body, much less an opponent. This may be accomplished in a number of ways in solo or partnered practice. But the principles are the same in either case, and the learning may progress by practice along either gradient. The endless variations are but aspects of a single inchoate form, which does not have, and cannot have, one faithful, reducible concrete representation, individually or collectively. |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
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I admire your fortitude with east Asian languages. I've embarked on the study of Chinese . . . it's fascinating and frustrating. |
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I would say that we are all 'the great one's' and good teachers help us to see/develop that baseline by way of this path. That is the basic, in my book( release date to be announced).;) |
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Found this on Aikido Journal: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=394 Nishimura Sensei: ... I believe that I am a man of foresight, you know. I encouraged Mr. Tomiki to start the art because I thought that the art was just wonderful. I myself didn't practice the art much, though. But Mr. Tomiki has been practicing for nearly 40 years. That's where he is so great. Ueshiba Sensei thought that Tomiki lessened the value of aiki, and Mr. Tomiki also had trouble with the Kodokan. However, he is a fine, serious man. He gradually attained proficiency in the art and now has many fine successors. He is now a university professor. One can continue to teach as a professor until the age of 70. Sunadomari Sensei: I believe that Ueshiba Sensei misses his students from the old days. He often talks about them. Nishimura Sensei: Well, we were all directly taught by Sensei. Also I was his first student from the judo world. Because Seishi told me to practice the art, I could do it with great confidence. Mr. Tomiki is having a hard time in his position between judo and aiki, but as could be expected, he has cooperated with judoka. You must have a dojo to practice in, you know. The Judo Federations of Kita Kyushu aixd Yamaguchi Prefecture are now beginning to include aiki. In present-day judo, people as they age gradually lose physical stamina. This is the reason aiki is now being taught to judo 1st and 2nd dans. In this way they can continue to run the dojo. You have to be successful financially to run a dojo, you know. Sunadomari Sensei: It seems so. Judo people have started to change their attitude toward aikido these days. Nishimura Sensei: The credit should go to Mr. Tomiki. Whenever I meet judoka who know aiki, they all know it through Mr. Tomiki. |
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I think the nature of aiki and learning how to do it are contained in the kata. The problem is finding a teacher that has done the work and progressed through the system of kata using aiki as the primary component of the riai and katachi. It is not labeled with Chinese terms, but aiki exists within the system. I don't think Tomiki and others knew how to "teach" it, but he could surely do it and I don't think he left it out of his teaching method on purpose. |
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We're all of us more or less reduced to the "I think...." perspective, since all we can do at this time is guess, based on what anecdotal indicators are left AND based on what is becoming more apparent about the ki and kokyu skills that seem to have been available in those earlier days. Tomiki demonstrated that he also knew the "secret" methods of generating qi and jin power, in the basic sense, but whether he understood the "aiki" use of those powers is simply not clear from the available documentation. If someone wants to argue that Tomiki did indeed understand how to use the "aiki" variant of those powers, I'd be interested in hearing them explain how it's done... a "Catch 22" if there ever was one. ;) Best. Mike Sigman |
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I do know what I saw Tomiki Sensei doing in 1966 and 67 that was not just mechanical connection, vectors, and timing, etc. I didn't feel his waza but I watched very carefully and have a pretty good eye. I did feel what a couple of his students could do and it felt very much like my teacher Mr. Li who I mentioned to you the last time you asked me pretty much the same question. I don't know any of Tomiki's students that are still active that seem to have what I saw him do on occasion. I really have nothing of value to add via discussion boards to your knowledge base that I don't already teach in public to my students. I'm spending lots of time right now learning how to change what I do enough to protect a bum hip until its replaced. Best of luck to you all in your search for more information. Semper Fi, |
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Unfortunately, I'm schizophrenic (and so am I), so I always have these conflicts going on within myself that try to argue both sides of any issue. Every argument I've ever had with physicists (during my engineering-training days), physiologists, etc., I've wound up losing when I took the position that something was outside of the normal rules of "mechanical connection, vectors, and timing", etc. My first thought, when reading your comment about things that are outside of these parameters, is "please explain how you know this". ;) How about the idea that these things do indeed fall within the normal realms, but in ways that we as westerners are not normally familiar with? In other words, what we don't know may not be so mysterious once we know what it is. Quote:
Best. Mike Sigman |
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Here's an interview with Tomiki where he discusses the rationale behind his thinking:
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But I would *guess* that he's saying that doing things in the old fashioned way takes a zealot's sense of propriety and dedication, which is beyond the needs and dedication of the majority of university students. I.e. Tomiki is concerned with developing a phys. ed. program for 4 year university students, that allows them to measure themselves safely (randori/shiai) and not in developing human weapons. My other thought (and I hope those of you who trained with Tomiki can shed some light on this) is that focusing on the ''parlor tricks" and ki stuff can draw the wrong kinds of students. That is, you get the people who want easy answers, and who are least likely to put things to the test, even in something as simple as an in house randori practice, much less shiai. At least if you have a randori/sports kind of program, you draw in those of a moderately practical bent. I suppose the logic would be that the most serious of those practitioners would eventually pursue the traditional ways in an effort to maximize their practice. |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
Tomiki Kenji
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2f...elated&search= He reportedly developed the solo exercises while a prisoner of war in Russia. |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
In Ellis's post he mentions the hard physical training involved in developing internal skill and gives examples of it. I wonder if Ellis you think that it is possible to lose such skill as your physical strength declines or if the physical conditioning only serves as a doorway to learning it and is not needed once such internal skill is possessed by someone?
I ask because it would relate to Ueshiba in his old age and I wonder if it had an influence on the post-war development of aikido. Also because of the list of examples given in the article and my own observations, namely: my girlfriend grew up on a farm and I know from talking to her mother (who I'll henceforth refer to as my mother-in-law for convenience sake even though we're not getting married for another year..) spoke of what she calls being 'farm-fit'. She too grew up on the same farm, a small-hold which is basically a hobby farm and is completely economically pointless, it can't make a profit. What this means is that there is no money to pay for farm workers and so all the work is done by the family, probably putting in more hours than an ordinary farm worker. Around the time my mother-in-law got married and had kids she moved away from the farm and when she moved back almost 10 years later found that she was exhausted most of the time because she was no longer what she called farm-fit. Sge'd lost that physical conditioning (hence the argument that it needs to be done every day...) This of course ties in to what Dan and Mike and others refer to as solo training. For example, we went on a hike a few years ago, my girlfriend her twin and their friend, myself and the mother-in-law. Guess who was always ahead of us up the mountain calling down to us asking if we wanted a tea break? Yup the 46 yr old woman who moves 1000s of pounds of horse around most days when she's not chasing sheep. The difference being in no way related to size (she was the lightest and smallest of us climbing that day, and of quite slight build). That's just one example I could give others. The other reason it intrigues me is that my own teacher had many jobs as a younger man that involved hard physical work, such as working on the railways. I've often wondered how much of a factor this is in his aikido. I mean he's solid as granite when he wants to be, but also impossibly soft and like a big hole in the world too when he chooses. I wonder if the solid as granite part is more attributable to hard physical training and the void-like quality to do with the internal skills he clearly possesses.... would a similar thing affect Ueshiba in his old age (I have noted how my own teacher at 65 is becoming more and more soft and void-like when you uke for him when compared to how he was ten years ago)? Is this a common process to other teachers? All food for thought anyway, thought I'd share it. Regards Mike |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
Re: "Farm Fit"---I've said this before, but normal muscle is capable of alot on its own. I've worked a number of manual labor jobs (most significantly as a bicycle messenger and loading trucks for UPS), and I can say that after a while you simply stop getting tired. There's a certain mental factor with those jobs, where you realize your body can do more than you think it can. While I was working those jobs, I was always the first man up the stairs and last to tire out, even with people who "worked out".
And that has nothing to do with the type of fascia-related skills Mike and Dan and all talk about. I'm learning to do some of that now, and its certainly different from the body mechanics I used in the past. So I don't automatically assume that "farm fit" has anything to do with internal skills. And while I don't mean to discredit Tomiki, I have to say it's possible to execute those 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-man throws without internal skills. I've done a two man throw myself, and I've seen someone (who I don't think possesses this type of internal skill) do the larger throws as well. So I wouldn't hold that story, in-and-of-itself, as "proof" of internal skill. |
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Mike |
Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal
Only got a few moments:
1. Mike - yes and no. The "yes" is that as we are not talking about magic, that even if we are working fascia, tendons, whatever, the muscles, if they atrophy, are going to not support movement. "No" in the idea that one remembers how to, for example, ride a bicycle years later, even if not having done so. Just my opinion, as I'm not a "how-to" authority - merely "so-I've-heard-and-am-trying-to-learn" 2. Timothy - your two man throw, or your acquaintance's more-man throw is equivalent to Tomiki if it is NOT done in the aikido environment. These were top-level judoka, who were absolutely non-compliant. Beyond that, of course, I've got no idea what Tomiki knew other than stories. Best Ellis Amdur |
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