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-   -   O-Sensei a Shinto Priest? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17403)

Janet Rosen 12-23-2009 11:20 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 248580)
O' sensei.....Probably because he was a Shin Tao priest..

???

mathewjgano 12-24-2009 12:54 AM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 248617)
???

I'm guessing she meant "Shinto" but I don't know that he was a priest. I believe there's a category of shrine membership for non-priests who have undergone some formal training. My guess is that he fit into that category, but I could be wrong.

RED 12-24-2009 02:35 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 248617)
???

As a spiritual basis, Shin Tao(Sorry, Chinese characters for Shinto.) thought is that sound is the energy that moves the universe. Thus, O'sensei thought music was likened to Aikido from a spiritual basis. :-D

RED 12-24-2009 03:00 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 248624)
I'm guessing she meant "Shinto" but I don't know that he was a priest. I believe there's a category of shrine membership for non-priests who have undergone some formal training. My guess is that he fit into that category, but I could be wrong.

I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did) I don't know if anything ever comes out and says he is a priest I'm also having trouble finding any text that comes out and says the leaders of the Shinto were priests. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

Janet Rosen 12-24-2009 04:10 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 248674)
As a spiritual basis, Shin Tao(Sorry, Chinese characters for Shinto.) thought is that sound is the energy that moves the universe. Thus, O'sensei thought music was likened to Aikido from a spiritual basis. :-D

I'm not disputing the central role of kotodama in OSensei's spiritualism (which I believe is not mainstream shinto but omoto-kyo) rather referring to him as a shinto priest.

RED 12-24-2009 05:51 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 248688)
I'm not disputing the central role of kotodama in OSensei's spiritualism (which I believe is not mainstream shinto but omoto-kyo) rather referring to him as a shinto priest.

I actually don't know if he was really a priest or not. All I know is that there wasn't much a of a prerequisite to becoming a priest. Every shrine had one priest, and he was typically self appointed.

Ron Tisdale 12-24-2009 07:20 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 248679)
I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did) I don't know if anything ever comes out and says he is a priest I'm also having trouble finding any text that comes out and says the leaders of the Shinto were priests. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

RED 12-24-2009 08:01 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 248708)
Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

:confused:

Ryan Seznee 12-24-2009 09:24 PM

Re: Music Offensive
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 248708)
Ok, I'm sorry, and please don't take offense. But. Do you just make this stuff up???

Best,
Ron

Who wouldn't be offended that you think they are a liar? Wouldn't you be upset is someone said the same to you? You can should give some one a social out if you genienly don't want to offend them, like "I think you might be mistaken". This gives the person a chance to back out graciously instead of them being forced to eather be defensive or aggressive.

Back on point, "A Life in Aikido" is a book written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba is a book that talks a little about O'Sensei's life. In it he tells a lot of antidotes about how O'Sensei saw ghosts, tengu, and such... I would say that makes him a mystic. He also tells about how one Moriteru Ueshiba became involved with the Omoto-kyo sect of Shinto. He was a personal acquaintance of Oinsaburo Deguchi, the leader of the Omoto-kyo sect at the time. During this time Moriteru Ueshiba is said to have a student by the name of Naohi Deguchi, who became the third leader of this sect, as well as the majority of the Omoto staff at that time. He taught priest, the majority of the com unity (in a religious commune mind you), and was a noted personal confidant of the leader of the movement (a priest himself). I would say that gives strong evidence that he ether was a priest or was at least sound enough in Shinto doctrine to entrust future generations of priests. Read the book (it is pretty good), if anyone is making it up, it is Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

Michael Hackett 12-24-2009 11:56 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Ryan,

Isn't Ueshiba Moriteru the current Doshu and grandson of Ueshiba Morihei?

Kent Enfield 12-25-2009 01:24 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 248679)
I know he was called a "mystic", and he's been known to have trained clergymen. And he wore a white hakama,(all shrine workers did)

Except for when they wear red. Or blue. Or purple. Or . . .

And lots of people wear white hakama.

Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 248698)
All I know is that there wasn't much a of a prerequisite to becoming a priest. Every shrine had one priest, and he was typically self appointed.

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out." And when someone comes and asks for oharai or other services, you just make it up?

To follow Ron's thoughts, stop making shit up.

akiy 12-25-2009 01:47 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
Please watch the tone of your postings, folks.

-- Jun

Ryan Seznee 12-25-2009 04:37 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 248724)
Ryan,

Isn't Ueshiba Moriteru the current Doshu and grandson of Ueshiba Morihei?

You are correct, I made a typo. In my previous post, Moriteru Ueshiba is should be replaced with Ueshiba Morihei. The facts are still the same. Kisshomaru Ueshiba is also Ueshiba Morihei's youngest son, so it was an interesting perspective on his life.

Russ Q 12-25-2009 04:44 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
Hi all,

It's as if Ron did irimi but no tenkan.....:-)

Merry Christmas,

Russ

Michael Hackett 12-25-2009 04:57 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
I've gone back through my library and can't find a single reference that suggests that Ueshiba Morihei was a Shinto priest. I'm very confident that he was a member of the Omoto sect of Shintoism and that he was close to Deguchi Onisaburo. The record is clear that he accompanied Deguchi to Mongolia on the ill-fated expedition. The record seems equally clear that he avoided the suppression of the sect through his powerful military and civil patrons who supported his budo teaching.

I suppose he could have been called a mystic as well since he claimed all sorts of extraordinary events such as the famed "golden light" story. Those may have happened (who am I to say?), he may have BELIEVED they happened, and he may well have made the whole thing up to enhance his reputation.

For me, the bottom line is that Ueshiba O Sensei was a very complex character, a strongly religious follower of Omoto, and that there is no evidence presented that he was a priest of any denomination. He certainly practiced the kotodama and lead others in the practice, but that doesn't translate to priesthood either. I suggest that he was a layman, much like some christian religions currently have laymen serving as "deacons" and other titles.

The fact that he taught Omoto followers his martial art isn't persuasive evidence of priesthood either. At times they were living in a communal style and the residents surely gave of their talents to the group. He taught martial arts, others did construction and so on.

As for the white hakama, I've seen many photographs of individuals wearing white hakama who clearly weren't priests - the most recent person I've seen in the white hakama was Ellis Amdur Sensei at the Aiki Expo. I won't say that Amdur Sensei is or isn't a Shinto priest, but some of his writings strongly discuss his faith.

So, was he or wasn't he? I don't think so, but will keep an open mind in anticipation of some evidence or source material.

RED 12-25-2009 05:01 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Quote:

Kent Enfield wrote: (Post 248750)
Except for when they wear red. Or blue. Or purple. Or . . .

And lots of people wear white hakama.

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out." And when someone comes and asks for oharai or other services, you just make it up?

To follow Ron's thoughts, stop making shit up.

I don't appreciate the tone of your post.
If you think this is all bull, then you could ask "hmm,I've never heard that, where did you get it from?" Then we'd have a conversation about where I've heard this.
Instead you are being confrontational in a way that's coming across like you intend to incite an argument.
I can explain my sources to you if you actually want a conversation about the issue? But if your intent in posting was simply to incite an argument I'm really not game.

RED 12-25-2009 05:10 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 248771)

So, was he or wasn't he? I don't think so, but will keep an open mind in anticipation of some evidence or source material.

I'm not entirely sure if he was or was not as well at this point. I've always assumed he was due to things said by my teachers and one Shihan.
I've found a lot of things that referred to this movement as a 'cult' at first. So I'm wondering if the terms were loser back then for what constituted priesthood and what did not. A lot is unsubstantial right now for me. I'm looking stuff up.
I'm once again, getting all my info from: "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba

Ryan Seznee 12-25-2009 05:15 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Quote:

Kent Enfield wrote: (Post 248750)

Really? How does that work? Do you just walk into the shrine and declare, "I'm the priest now. You, get out."

In the "Please help with a small bit of history" thread, there is a comment that the Omoto Kyo sect requires all of its members to go through training of a priest (his involvement was 10 years ago so his information might be dated). This training lasted a week, and Steven Segal has claimed to be a shinto priest before, so it isn't that outrageous considering O'Sensei had a shinto shrine in every dojo he owned since his involvement in the Omoto Kyo sect.

I am personally a bit of a history buff, so any information you have on the subject would be appreciated. I am basing most of my information on O'Sensei's religious background on "A Life In Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, "Essence of Aikido" by Ueshiba, Morihei, and "Phylosophy of Aikido" by John Stevens. What evidence do you have to support he was not?

Ellis Amdur 12-25-2009 06:58 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Ueshiba - mystic, no doubt. Devotee and worshiper at shrines - no doubt. Shinto priest. NO.

White hakama are worn by many kendoka and other koryu folks.
Here's one of jodo:
And pre-war, more than a few aikidoka wore white hakama. After the war, it was relegated to Ueshiba and to 9th - 10th dan. Here's Iwata Hajime.
Here's Hikitsuchi, Here's Hikitsuchi and Ueshiba,
I'm told that in this picture Ueshiba told Hikitsuchi that it was an "unholy day" - sort of like "casual Fridays at certain banks. So they dressed down to go bar hopping and get ripped on cheap shochu (O.K., I made that up).

I've attached a picture from a demo in St. Louis. From L-R, there's Will Schutt, Diane Skoss, Meik Skoss, Phil Relnick, Larry Bieri, Dave Lowry, moi, and my student, Steve Bowman. (Why are all those people so little? Well, that's another discussion, I suppose).
Phil Relnick had the microphone answering questions, and someone asked the significance of the different hakama and keikko-gi and Phil graciously and unwisely handed the mic to me. I replied, "Well, the colors of the clothes are symbolize of one's moral intent and attainment. You see these people on my right, wearing all dark clothes, blue or black. They have embraced evil. I, wearing white, have embraced good. My student Steve, here, on my left, just can make up his mind yet which way he wants to go.
Merry Xmas
Ellis Amdur

akiy 12-25-2009 07:11 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
Hi Maggie, Ryan,

If I may step in for a moment...

It seems as though you have stirred up a veritable hornets nest with your thoughts that Morihei Ueshiba was a Shinto priest.

I think that the disbelief that you are encountering comes from the research undertaken by many, including those in this thread, that does not support your thoughts. Many people here have read the same books that you have, (some in its original Japanese language -- "Aikido Ichiro" and "Aikido Kaiso Ueshiba Morihei Den" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba) and have walked away not having found what you are claiming.

I'm sure that should you produce a substantive piece of evidence that points to Morihei Ueshiba's having been a Shinto priest, people would be quite interested, and most likely, happy to be proven wrong. But, until then, as what you are asserting is out of the norm, the burden of proof lies with you in pointing us towards the evidence (e.g. a quote and the page number from a book) that supports your assertion.

(As far as the other evidence cited of Morihei Ueshiba having worn a white hakama, having been called a mystic, and having had a Shinto shrine in all of his dojo, I would consider all of these to be circumstantial evidence -- many folks who are not Shinto priests wear white hakama, being called a "mystic" does not confer that person with priesthood necessarily, and the presence of a Shinto "shrine" in a dojo does not its dojocho into a Shinto priest make. I believe this is what many here in this thread are objecting to.)

Best,

-- Jun

PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...

Ron Tisdale 12-25-2009 07:41 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
Quote:

PS: Thanks, Ellis, for your thoughts. I'm still making up my mind of which way I want to go myself...
Oh no Jun, you, of all people, have definately chosen the light. You still tolerate old sour pusses like me, so it must be true! ;)

Quote:

Who wouldn't be offended that you think they are a liar? Wouldn't you be upset is someone said the same to you? You can should give some one a social out if you genienly don't want to offend them, like "I think you might be mistaken". This gives the person a chance to back out graciously instead of them being forced to eather be defensive or aggressive.
Dude, if I want to call someone a liar, I know how to type the word. If at some point I decide to use the word, no one will have to wonder.

Best, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and to all, a Good Night.
Ron

RED 12-25-2009 08:03 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
I actually only said he was in passing, off of what I've read and heard seniors suggest.
I'm not exactly sure why it stirs so much up. It was never any claim I defended passionately.
I feel a bit on egg shells.

Kent Enfield 12-25-2009 08:06 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 248772)
If you think this is all bull, then you could ask "hmm,I've never heard that, where did you get it from?" Then we'd have a conversation about where I've heard this.

That assumes that I think a hypothesis about Ueshiba Morihei being a Shinto priest based on his wearing white hakama and being a martial arts instructor for a cult is worth having a conversation about. That's akin to claiming that someone is a Christian priest because he wears black shirts and teaches boxing at the YMCA.

Ron Tisdale 12-25-2009 08:13 PM

Re: O-Sensei a Shinto Priest?
 
Hi Maggie, I'm just an old curmugeon. I probably didn't even spell that correctly. Just feel free to ignore me when I get cranky, and please don't take it personally.

Best,
Ron

RED 12-25-2009 08:13 PM

Re: Music While Training - Offensive?
 
Quote:

Kent Enfield wrote: (Post 248798)
That assumes that I think a hypothesis about Ueshiba Morihei being a Shinto priest based on his wearing white hakama and being a martial arts instructor for a cult is worth having a conversation about. That's akin to claiming that someone is a Christian priest because he wears black shirts and teaches boxing at the YMCA.

I had no hypothesis. That's what I've been saying.


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