AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Language (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   keiko (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4947)

Paula Lydon 02-03-2004 07:28 AM

keiko
 
~~Meaning? :D ~~

Thalib 02-03-2004 07:53 AM

Tracing the old?

Ron Tisdale 02-03-2004 08:03 AM

To reflect deeply upon the past...

Ron

ze'ev erlich 02-03-2004 09:15 AM

The Kanji and the original meaning of the word "keiko" had deep and spiritual meaning.

However in everyday Japanese the word simply means: "practice; training".

Ze'ev.

Paula Lydon 02-03-2004 04:42 PM

~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?

Thanks!

Don_Modesto 02-03-2004 04:58 PM

Quote:

Paula Lydon wrote:
~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?

Probably the same way (as someone suggested on these boards recently) that practicing "Martial" arts doesn't imply worship of Mars. :)

If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.

Peter Goldsbury 02-03-2004 05:34 PM

Quote:

Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.

Hello Don,

The place you are thinking of is probably Chapter 4 ("The Method") in the "Classical Budo" volume, except that Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once. Basically, training is what you do until you attain the heights of the DOU level, after which it becomes practice.

It is a nice, romantic, chapter, similar in tone to what aikido teachers sometimes adopt over a beer after keiko/renshu, when they wax lyrical and spice the discourse with gnomic quotes from M Ueshiba. I have heard the Draeger chapter expounded a number of times so far, so please pardon my laid back tone.

The problem is that Draeger is of no value for distinguishing between 'keiko' and 'renshu'. Both terms can apply equally to all stages of the process he describes.

Best regards,

Thalib 02-03-2004 07:28 PM

A shihan from Aikikai honbu dojo on his visit to Indonesia, during practice before yudansha test, was quite angry looking how most of us(Indonesians) were training/practice. I'm not going to go into the details.

One thing that he said made me think, "Everytime you go into the dojo to train... no it's not training... practice... no it's not practice either... it is keiko... it is tracing the old..."

P.S.: 3 periods (...) symbolizes pause... :p

Peter Goldsbury 02-04-2004 02:18 AM

Here is some relevant information concerning ekeikof, erenshuf and ekenshuf from the eNihon Kokugo Daijitenf. In all cases the meanings are given, together with the earliest references given in the dictionary. I have added a few notes and comments, but I apologize that time commitments have prevented an English translation. I leave that to the Japanese experts in this forum.

Keiko

ŒmŒÃ

1. ŒÃŽ--‚ðl‚¦‚āA•¨Ž--‚Ì‚©‚‚Ă ‚Á‚½‚ ‚è•û‚Æ‚±‚ê‚©‚ç‚ ‚é‚ׂ«Žp‚Ƃ𐳊m‚É'm‚邱‚ƁB

ŽO‘ãŠi|\ŽµEOm\ŽO"Ni822jŽOŒŽ"ñ\˜Z"úE‘¾­Š¯•„

2. ‘‚ð"ǂñ‚ÅŠw--₷‚邱‚ƁB‚Ü‚½AŠw‚ñ‚¾‚Æ‚±‚ë‚𕜏K‚·‚邱‚ƁBŠw--âBŠwKB

ŽO‘ãŠi|ˆêEOmŠi˜i830j

3. C‹ÆB—ûKB"Á‚É•pAŒ|"\‚Ȃǂɂ‚¢‚Ä‚¢‚¤‚±‚Æ‚ª‘½‚¢B

•½Ž¡i1220 ‚©jãEM—ŠM¼•s‰õ‚ÌŽ--

4. Cs‚ÌŒ÷‚ðÏ‚ñ‚ŁAŠwŽ¯‚âË"\‚ª‚·‚®‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚ƍ‚‚­•]‰¿‚³‚ê‚邱‚ƁB

‰Ô‰€"Vc›‚‹L|Œ³‰ž"ñ"Ni1320j‹ãŒŽ"ñ"ú

5. "Á‚ɁA‹ê•×—サ‚ČÎ--‚ɂ‚­‚Æ‚¢‚¤ˆÓ‚ð‹­‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚¤B

--¼ŒŽ‹L|³Œ³Œ³"Ni1207j\ˆêŒŽ"ª"ú

Note: The connection with ancient learning, probably Chinese learning & the rote learning of ancient texts, is quite strong and the earliest reference to keiko as training in the martial arts is for 1220, which is, quite appropriately, in the middle of the Kamakura bakufu.

Renshu

—ûK

Šw--â‚â‹ZŒ|‚È‚Ç‚ðŒJ‚è•Ô‚µŠwK‚·‚邱‚ƁB‚Ü‚½Aˆê'è‚̍ì‹Æ‚ð"½•œ‚µ‚āA‚»‚Ì‹Zp‚ðg‚É ‚‚¯‚邱‚ƁB

--¾t‰—ˆimid-11Cj

Note: The reference here to internalization by repetition is noteworthy, whether in scholarship or the arts.

Kenshu

Œ¤C

Šw--â‚â‹ZŒ|‚È‚Ç‚ðA‚Ý‚ª‚«‚¨‚³‚߂邱‚ƁB‚Ü‚½A‚ ‚éEˆæ‚ŁAE‹Æã•K—v‚È'mŽ¯‚â‹Z"\‚𠍂‚ß‚éEˆõ‚ðˆê'èŠúŠÔ‹³ˆç‚·‚邱‚Æ‚â‚»‚Ì‚½‚ߍuK‚Æ‚¢‚¤B

•‚¢Šá‚Æ'ƒF‚Ì--ځi1914j

Note: This is quite different from the other two and has the connotation of honing a skill or undertaking special training for a particular purpose.

Best regards,

Don_Modesto 02-04-2004 01:22 PM

Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once.

You're right. I obviously interpolated the Jpn terms.

Thanks for the detailed post on the two terms.

Tatiana 08-25-2004 03:30 PM

Re: keiko
 
It depends on the kanji. It can be a girl's name (in fact, before I found this forum, That was the only way I knew it... hehe)

It is kind of like training, but there is a more spiritual connotation (I think). For regular sports, like baseball, you would say renshu. It could also mean practise, or to reflect deeply on the past...

ŒmŒÃ KEIKO. This is a compound word composed of
(1) Œm The ‘厚Œ¹ Daijigen gives 'kanga(eru)' and 'todo(meru)' as readings for this word. There are several basic meanings: to think or dispute, to stop, and to bow low. The Chinese-derived reading (from ji / qi) is KEI. This is combined with:
(2) ŒÃ furu(i), inishie, meaning old or ancient times. The Chinese-derived reading (from gu) is KO and the combination gives KEI-KO, which means to consider or contemplate ancient matters and by transference, to pursue scholarship, academic learning, or other training.

saltlakeaiki 08-25-2004 03:39 PM

Re: keiko
 
Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this :D When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat :D

akiy 08-27-2004 12:55 AM

Re: keiko
 
Hi David,
Quote:

David Iannucci wrote:
Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this :D When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat :D

It looks like Tatiana was merely quoting other people on the AikiWeb Forums:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...98&postcount=3
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...00&postcount=6

Tatiana, please do follow basic netiquette and let us know when you're quoting others... Thanks.

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale 08-27-2004 07:17 AM

Re: keiko
 
I like that phrase "to trace the old"...seems to convey a little something extra. Thanks all for the contributions.

Ron


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:55 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.