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-   -   "I Hate Aikido" Thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4281)

Jorx 08-23-2003 12:49 PM

"I Hate Aikido" Thread
 
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showth...hreadid=102884

How to deal with such kinds of things?

Ignore it? Be "above" it? Frankly, I personally am already a bit fed up with "ignoring" and "being above it all".

And a bit of it is sad and sore truth in those posts as well...

But now I shut up and let you do the talking. (Brave and trolly ones go and flame that forum as well... I'll be reading your posts with pleasure:))

DaveO 08-23-2003 02:15 PM

Why bother?

They can say whatever the hell they want; what do we care?

A Judo club uses the mats before we do; it's owned and operated by Wayne Erdman; 6th Dan. (Former coach, Candadian Olympic team.) Every one of them - and it's a big class - is respectful, friendly and mature in regards to other disciplines.

So; I don't give two pins what the children on that other forum say or think; it's entirely their loss in my experience. As for going onto that forum; it's an exercise in futility; I for one have no interest in getting into a wah-wah argument with these kids; it isn't one you can win. Let them step onto my mats, I'll answer that way.

akiy 08-23-2003 03:04 PM

As the saying goes, you can only change yourself -- not others...

-- Jun

ajbarron 08-23-2003 05:01 PM

I just checked out the "I Hate Aikido" Thread". It was interetsing to me to read these "fighters" perspective on Aikido. When people ask me to show them a "move" I either pretend to turn and run, or I like to show them either "Aikido arm wrestling" ( you give with the person as they are pushing you ) or the "Unbendable Arm" which really stuns them until you show them how to do it and then they are even more amazed at how little effort it takes.

Why am I in Aikido?...because it suits my stage of life , family, beliefs and values etc. Their's ( the I Hate Aikido crowd)reflects this in them. Perhaps they with see other perspectives in the future.

L. Camejo 08-23-2003 06:16 PM

That was a very funny thread.

Had some truth to it though.

Many self proclaimed "fighters" simply cannot understand how Aikido works until they get bounced off the mat a bit. Tho I'd admit that there are Aikidoka as well who are in the same category :).

It's kinda hard for these guys to admit that after years of honing one's physical strength and fighting skills that it may be possible to be defeated by someone who does not break a sweat in the proces.

If one were to enter into that forum to "defend aikido" they would be doing exactly what could cause defeat in reality - being enticed to engage the enemy in his domain under his rules.

I think if one becomes infused by those statements they should ask themselves why - if their words are not true then it should not bother us.

Most judoka/jujutsuka/mma folks I have met have been very respectful folks. Those who were not either stayed very far and muttered comments or stepped on the mat and understood the helpless feeling of being hit by the earth.

It's all good. Either way we learn something.:)

Arigato

L.C.:ai::ki:

PhilJ 08-23-2003 08:55 PM

What interests me is the responses I'm seeing -- these folks really got to some of us, didn't they? :) Hey, they got to me too, just because we all have this thing called "ego".

As Andrew suggests, their context for martial arts is tournament fighting, and that's fine. My context is improving my work relationships, handling my mind better, and making myself more efficient in a "one-cut to finish it" type of action, no matter what it is.

Everyone is right. "Ishn't that veird?" ;)

*Phil

Chris Raywood 08-23-2003 10:52 PM

Jorgen:

I read your post, and must admit the thread bothered me a little too. But if it makes you feel any better, I'd like to make the following points.

1) The threads on the forum in general seem (at least to me) quite juvenile.

2) The respondents on the third and fourth pages of the particular thread seem a little more respectful, and do reprimand the original post.

3) Go to sherdog forum, click "other", then click "the archives." There is another aikido bashing thread there too. Now read it, and tell me if it isn't the biggest crock of manure you've ever seen. The guy is lying through his teeth, and you'll get a good feeling for what I mean by juvenille.

4) You are not in a competitive martial art, and I'm afraid that there is little you can do to impress certain people that are in competitive arts.

5) In my opinion, the art that you, and I are learning is street effective with techniques that have been distilled from historically proven methods. I know this to be true, since the techniques I am now learning are variations of techniques I have used in the previous arts that I have trained in, AND I KNOW THEY WORK!

Anyway, its 1:00 a.m. where I am, and I'm dead tired. I hope I'm thinking straight right now, and haven't offended anyone. I guess I had to say what I said. Take care.

Chris

aikilouis 08-24-2003 06:41 AM

This thread is a good test for our humility and sense of humour.

This said, those participating in the aforementioned thread rudicule themselves more than anything else.

PhilJ 08-24-2003 08:06 AM

No matter what we think of them, we need to let them be. 100 years from now, no one will care about what they say, or what we say. :)

*Phil

A. Palumbo 08-24-2003 08:38 AM

I took a quick look at the thread, and decided that posting would really be a waste of time. Too bad they're so ignorant.

Another thing I noticed was a huge lack of respect. I have never heard another martial art badmouthed in my aikido classes, actually quite the opposite.

I don't know what may be taught in judo, but I would hope that they don't actively denigrate other martial arts.

I can't change another person's behavior, I can only change how I react to them, and in this case, they're better ignored, I guess.

Joseph Huebner 08-24-2003 10:26 AM

I took a few minutes to read the thread. Like water off a duck's back. Train on.

Joseph

opherdonchin 08-24-2003 11:07 AM

I enjoyed reading the thread. I may have even learned some things. If being street effective was more important to me, or if I had more time in my life, I'd be very curious to try BJJ or judo.

I wonder about the logic that says, "I study martial art X and beat someone studying martial art Y, so martial art X is superior to Y." It seems to me that this overlooks many of the factors that play into success in a martial conflict.

Irony 08-24-2003 12:30 PM

What I liked was the post that insinuated that O'Sensei never proved himself because he didn't participate in the Pride/UFC tournaments.

I'll just get out my time machine...

aiki_what 08-24-2003 01:24 PM

"I hate aikido" thread
 
I think the only honorable thing to do is to challenge them to a death match.

aikidoc 08-24-2003 02:50 PM

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Sturgeon's Law: "Ninety percent of everything is crap."

I found the thread somewhat juvenile in the beginning. I've worked out with judoka in the past. They had trouble throwing me since I used extension and they could not enter. Then they'd try to sweep my feet and I'd just extend and life up my foot. I let them throw me and then reach up and tug their gi and toss them over (usually off balance do to a sacrifice throw).

Does that make them bad or me good. Neither. These were not street situations and stylistic differences explain the dynamics. I think the guys on the site have a bit too much testosterone and too little experience with martial arts.

jaxonbrown 08-24-2003 03:50 PM

i read the thread and can see those guys points of view. "too cooperative", "uke's throw themselves". these are the same things i thought when i first started. I still doubt parts of my training but I know Aikido works, just that _my_ aikido doesnt work yet. One of these days I'm going to amaze myself. I just know it.

SeiserL 08-24-2003 04:36 PM

IMHO, listen to criticism, evaluate your own training, let the criticism go.

Everyone's got an opinion. It is very common to defend your art by knocking others.

From what I've seen, MMA can beat most people in a sparring match. They are tough fighters. If all you want is one-on-one go-to-the-ground, its great. It has its limitations just like any other art.

Now get back to the mat.

sanosuke 08-24-2003 09:10 PM

they should remember that even Jigoro Kano sensei said that Aikido is his ideal budo. Anyway, just ignore it, their perception and expectation towards martial art is somewhat different with us.

sanosuke 08-24-2003 09:14 PM

Oh yeah, i ust read in that thread that Aikido is potentially dangerous because it builds you false confidence. Now that's interesting. What do you guys saying about this?

Chocolateuke 08-24-2003 10:42 PM

I think any martial art can be potentionally self destructive in combat because of ego. Bruce lee was not a great MA because of the system he studied, The man trained 6 hours a day. Ushiba would have never achived his level of mastery without hardwork and training. Granted they could whoop my but any day of the week, but not because of their style, but because of their skill and training.

I doubt a lot of those kids on that fourm has ever been in a "real" fight. I haven't I have used Aikido tech before once or twice, but not in life and death duels. The person who wins in Combat is the person who can control their actions/thoughts/adrenelin the best. Sure MA training may upp the odds, but so does a baseball bat.

Training is a tool for YOUR self improvement and hopefully improve yourself to the point you dont need to get angery and fight or do something stupid to get into a fight. Remember dont judge anybody, Ushiba's students say that Ushiba never classified people in catagories of, "that guy is bad I wont help him, or that guy is good I will hang out with him." Ushiba had a lot of compassion for human kind, that is why he created Aikido.

shihonage 08-24-2003 11:52 PM

The very first post in the thread is written by a person who is angered with an Aikidoka's behavior.

And that person is right. The Aikidoka in question clearly had more ego problems (derived from false self-confidence which was being ruined by this Judo guy) than the average Judo guy.

If he joined a Judo class then he should behave like he's expected in a Judo class, and not try to make everyone else behave like they're in his Aikido class.

He should accept "losing" in Judo, learn and get on with it instead of whining all the time.

There's a lot of Aikido practitioners with this kind of attitude.

There are even blackbelts (who wouldn't be able to pass their shodan test now if their life depended on it) who always say "Go easy whoa whoa" when one tries to give a sincere attack, give cheating insincere attacks as uke, stop technique 100% in it's tracks, with a fake smile on their face (because hey in an Aikido class you better smile !), in order to "show how to better do it", and when you start to pull it off, they will let go and roll "dignifiedly" by themselves, giving you no feeling of connection or anything whatsoever.

This is the kind of person who would behave that way in a Judo class.

So yes a lot of the complaints in that "I hate Aikido" thread are actually true.

bogglefreak20 08-25-2003 04:24 AM

As I am merely a beginner in :ki: :ai: :ki: :do: my thoughts might seem a bit (or more than a bit) naive to all of you. But still, the most obvious impression after reading the thread on Sherdog site is that the words express a lot of violence and that they are ment to insult someone, namely aikidoka.

A couple of rhetorical questions to contemplate upon: Why does one never see such hateful threads on this site? Could the peaceful nature of Aikido be the reason?

My impression of Ki Aikido after a year's training is that violence is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Some of you might disagree, however, the way of peace, serenity, least agressive action etc. remains the main goal in my personal training.

Reading the insults and other rude or otherwise overpotent words made this distinction between Ki Aikido and other martial arts even more obvious to me. Not that I mean anything bad about other martial arts or those that train them. To each his own.

And perhaps a final thought - I simply cannot think too highly of a site where a colour of a belt labeled under the username is a means to define the "weight" of someone's words. If you have something to say, say it and let the words express your mental state, feelings, character or spiritual level on their own. If nothing smart comes out, then simply take it as a challenge and train harder :) Hiding behind a coloured belt is in my opinion pure vanity. Again, no offense ment!

paw 08-25-2003 04:56 AM

Just to clear something up......
Quote:

Why does one never see such hateful threads on this site?
Such threads are here. They tend not to last long, but they do show up from time to time.
Quote:

Reading the insults and other rude or otherwise overpotent words made this distinction between Ki Aikido and other martial arts even more obvious to me.
Um.... That's an internet forum with it's own culture. It's likely that most of the people there wouldn't use the same language if speaking to someone face to face and people are disciplined on sherdog's when they cross the boundaries of that forum's guidelines.
Quote:

And perhaps a final thought - I simply cannot think too highly of a site where a colour of a belt labeled under the username is a means to define the "weight" of someone's words.
The "belt" indicates how long someone has been a member of the forum, not rank in any specific martial art/martial style.

Best advice has come from Lynn:

Now get back to the mat.

Regards,

Paul

John Boswell 08-25-2003 08:58 AM

One thing to consider
 
I think that another thing to consider when it comes to post like the one linked above is "What are they calling an Aikidoka?"

I've studied Aikido about a year. I'm fifth kyu, I understand but need a lot of work on the basics. Does that make me an "Aikidoka?" I use it, sure. I know the philosophy and principles behind Aikido. But if I were to step on the mat with someone who uses Judo, I'd probably get tossed around like a rag doll and if that person is a jerk, their impression of Aikido is that its a joke!

Aikido is only as impressive, dynamic, workable, useful... as the person using it. No more and no less.

Let all the macho jerks of the world keep their opinions. Personally, I'd rather they all think that way... it'll keep them off guard for when they meet a TRUE Aikidoka who will simply just own them.

2 cents. ;)

bob_stra 08-25-2003 09:16 AM

Re: One thing to consider
 
Well, after an indepth reading (ie: 1st sentance of of 1st post)...

Some thoughts -

Quote:

-"I hate Aikido and anyone who does it"

Meh.

I have a pet theory as to why MMA'ers hate aikidoka, but...also Meh.

Sounds like a communication problem / different expectations / not respecting the other guy kinda thing. Maybe a little primadonna-ism (Medical term, I swear)

Also, ignorance is bliss.

To sum up -

(1) Meh

(2) Communication problem between the two

(3) ignorance is bliss

PS: I just realized I answered a related thread over at R.M.A. On the topic of injuring your partners. -

"I hate this shit. Hate it with a passion. Not only is it dangerous, but its arrogant. I ain't your chew toy, fuckwit - I've got a family to feed and a job to go to tommorow"


laovel 08-25-2003 09:28 AM

Not that it means anything but I as soon as I saw the posters choice for an icon (Snoop)I knew that I would be reading a message from someone who had a long way to go on the path. Maybe he/she is on a different road?

I find it interesting that if you follow most MA to the higher levels they start training and talking about what O'Sensai had his students (and now us) start at the begining. I'm not saying that makes Aikido better/worse, just an interesting training point. Would we do more body effective training if we concentrated on it? I think so. Would we have to take more steps on the path of the way? Yes.

Peace/Love/Tofu.

It's all the world needs.

bob_stra 08-25-2003 09:47 AM

I just read the rest of the "I hate aikido" thread.

Now I'm in a grumpy mood.

You guys suck for bringing it to my attention.

;-)

Lyle Bogin 08-25-2003 09:50 AM

As the saying goes, you can only change yourself -- not others...

-- Jun

Is that really true?

If, for example, I roll with one of these guys and get them to tap, and they then decide that aikido has some value, what does that mean? He has changed his opinion, as a direct result of my ability to apply theory in action.

When Rickson Gracie showed those interested in MA the value of his training methods and techniques, and thousands of people started adapting to and enjoying his family's style, what did that mean? Did he change anyone? People certainly changed their opinions and actions.

When O'Sensei brought his art to the world and gave us such a wonderful outlet/tool/whatever we consider out art to be, were we not all changed in some way?

It seems to me that people must allow themselves to change, therefore the direct cause of that change can be said to be internal. However, I don't think that diminishes the value of the external events or actions that initiated that change.

Thoughts? Am I saying anything at all, haha?

paw 08-25-2003 09:53 AM

Quote:

Not that it means anything but I as soon as I saw the posters choice for an icon (Snoop)I knew that I would be reading a message from someone who had a long way to go on the path.
Not like you would judge them, or anything.....
Quote:

I find it interesting that if you follow most MA to the higher levels they start training and talking about what O'Sensai had his students (and now us) start at the begining.
Most MAs? Bit of an exageration there, don't you think? Recall that O Sensei talked about kami entering his body and often his students claimed they didn't fully understand what he was talking about....

IMO, the original thread was a basic "we are right, they --- aikidoists --- are wrong", and now there is a similar theme from the aikidoists --- albeit with more polite language.

It shouldn't come as a shock that there's a good population of martial arts/martial sports that find aikido, and other arts, worthless based on some criteria they hold dear. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul

akiy 08-25-2003 10:07 AM

Quote:

Lyle Bogin wrote:
If, for example, I roll with one of these guys and get them to tap, and they then decide that aikido has some value, what does that mean? He has changed his opinion, as a direct result of my ability to apply theory in action.

Exactly -- he has changed his opinion...
Quote:

It seems to me that people must allow themselves to change, therefore the direct cause of that change can be said to be internal. However, I don't think that diminishes the value of the external events or actions that initiated that change.
Without one's internal motivation (conscious or subconscious) to change, one will not.

For example (going back to Internet discussions), I'm sure everyone here has seen enough "discussions" where there are people trying to change the other party's mind through "proof," "research results," "statistics," "credentials," and "attributions." People who don't care to have their minds changed will not care about such things however meaningful they may be to you. The thread in question seems to have been started by people who have no willingness to change their minds. As Paul says, some people find no value in aikido (or whatever it is that they don't care for). And so it goes.

-- Jun

laovel 08-25-2003 10:27 AM

I wasn't hiding the fact that I was judging (<gasp><grin>) their music tastes but more from what I think of how Snoop acts and stands for (not that I would really know, just from what mass-media I see)and why would someone follow/adore/glorify (or whatever it is we do to pop-stars) that kind of person? No need to answer that anyone, I don't need to put on my flame retardant suit.

"Recall that O Sensei talked about kami entering his body and often his students claimed they didn't fully understand what he was talking about...."

Ok, me type bad. I was talking more basic, as that is my understanding of Aikido. I was speaking of things like "getting off the line" and "blending" and "using the attackers strength/intention". Not kami, I have no experience with that. The few other MA's that I've had a taste of or have spoken to someone face to face about (*not just random web posting <smirk>) seem to lead to that sort of feeling. Obviously not all of them...i'm not saying Aikido is "better" for it, i just find it interesting and think it's nicer to talk about comparisons then the sandbox mentality of "i'm better then you, because I'm wearing a star on my belly!"

Personally, I'm really liking the idea of training being misogi at this point in my life, and trying to take my training off the mat. I'm now a father of two and it's the hardest Aikido that I've ever done!

I'm not shocked by anything people say or do out there...I think that baseball and cricket players probably have the same kind of discussion between them.

Budd 08-25-2003 10:28 AM

Re: I love Aikido
 
"Sticks and stones . . .

May break my bones . . .

Especially when swung or thrown!"

Seriously, it doesn't bother me that Aikido gets trashed on a testosterone-filled forum of angry teenagers that are prone to making snap-judgements and seek to legitimize said opinions through profanity and obstinacy. As someone earlier wrote, it's an ego thing and a game I choose not to play. I would invite any that think it's weak to come train at my dojo, but generally don't bother because I've found it to be an exercise in futility when it comes to online communications.

But are valid points made as well? I think the aikidoka (assuming the poster was being honest) that displayed such poor behavior at the judo school was not the best representative one could have hoped for. In some ways, I think aikido faces many of the same issues as tai chi. Plenty just see a system of fancy movements, whereas I see systems of practice that are ideal for self-development and interpersonal relations, while at the same time, instilling excellent martial principles.

The quality of instruction is, of course, a variable that's dependent on the training facility, teacher, etc. The opinions of folks looking to trash aikido aren't going to affect this.

Lyle Bogin 08-25-2003 10:34 AM

"Without one's internal motivation (conscious or subconscious) to change, one will not."

And without external motivation to change, one will not, especially in this case.

These people who are so unwilling to change their minds might not be so unwilling if they got a good toss or effective pin from an aikidoist. The foundation of MMA is adaptablity and the acceptance of the validity of a martial art based on efficacy of techniques in a certain environment. If they were to be "defeated" some how by aikido techniques, their adaptation to or inclusion of those techniques would be proof that they believe aikido works. Of course, one can argue that the theory of aikido is already present in well accepted MMA components such as BJJ. And so it goes :).

kensparrow 08-25-2003 11:05 AM

My favorite quote from that thread was "Pain is temporary but pride is forever!" He must have meant that matter how hard we work, we will forever be doing battle with our own egos. I would never have expected to find such wisdom on a forum like that! From the mouths of babes...

Cyrijl 08-25-2003 11:38 AM

1-The reason why aikido gets very little repsect these days is precisely because of all of your self-agrandizing posts

2-
Quote:

It's kinda hard for these guys to admit that after years of honing one's physical strength and fighting skills that it may be possible to be defeated by someone who does not break a sweat in the proces.
Well then that happens let me know

3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

4-By taking the so-called 'high road' many of you are acting just as those you would criticize.

5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.

akiy 08-25-2003 11:45 AM

Quote:

Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.

I do? Hm.

-- Jun

Budd 08-25-2003 12:15 PM

Quote:

Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
1-The reason why aikido gets very little repsect these days is precisely because of all of your self-agrandizing posts

2-

Well then that happens let me know

3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

4-By taking the so-called 'high road' many of you are acting just as those you would criticize.

5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.

I didn't realize that we were all being self-aggrandizing. I thought the general theme seemed to be, "oh well, let them think what they'd like".

You sort of dance around a valid point -- namely that there are people that exhibit bad behavior regardless of style, age, rank, etc. But lumping all of us that have participated in this thread into that category seems a bit overly judgemental.

I'm somewhat new to the boards and don't have time to extensively read the archives, so I'm not sure if you're coming from the standpoint of 'I don't like aikido', which I don't agree with (but fully respect your right to feel that way), or 'Some aikido people tick me off', with which I can relate.

bob_stra 08-25-2003 01:25 PM

Quote:

Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

Seconded on both counts.

Cyrijl 08-25-2003 02:27 PM

1-if you get upset by me saying self-aggrandizing posts, then you must lump yourself in that category.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.

You will see that consistently i have praised the techniques in aikido, but question the validity of many of the training methods in terms of effectiveness. I was even told in one dojo that aikido is not good for self defense until you have been studying for a while.

The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.

For people who get upset so easily:

If you love aikido, fine. If you can say you train in the manner you wish too (either for dance or for fighting), that is great too. No one should waste a minute of thought getting upset at what i write/wrote. It is merely my two cents (or a bit less)...

Cyrijl 08-25-2003 02:29 PM

p.s. I like aikido too, the techniques and theory of body mechanics. I try to apply them in the martial arts i study now. I also enjoy most of the people on this board for their views and knowledge, experience and stories. But that does not mean that some people are not full of it.


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