Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet
 

Does anyone else do koshi nage with their feet together?

Re: Koshi Nage
 

I have done it that way for sure. Prefer to have a couple of inches between them for more stability though.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

There are lot's of throws that can be called Koshinage. As long as they go over your hips sideways, you could call it a koshinage. So yes, and no, depending on what kind of hip throw I'm doing.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Just the Judo people who are actually doing O-Goshi and such.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Illustration:

O-Goshi (Judo) : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PqLGjRU2kr0
Koshi-Nage (Aikido) : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ALr8_VkM9UY from about 2:33

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Yes, we do.
kihon waza says: keep your feet together.

Carsten

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Not how O'Sensei did it, then? No; feet appart.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Saito had mentioned that the feet should not be together before he passed away.
Ikeda Sensei's Koshi video shows some wonderful throws that end with the feet together, including a sick jo takeaway that I have never seen anyone else even attempt.
It appears to be one of those technical details that offers endless debate and minimal significance.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Why would a technical detail of a technique be insignificant? On the lowest level a technique is a collection of details, stringing those details together exposes the logic of the technique, different details == different techniques.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Ha, I really liked this quote, Then below that I see:

I see the validity in both statements, but I still tend to agree with the first much more.

It is very reasonable to say that doing something a different way, makes it a different technique, because that is a true statement. However It's also just a name, that points to a thing, and not actually the thing itself.

For example; Koshi nage is a very general term, it simply means "hip throw". That name points to a thing, the thing is someone being thrown by way of the hip. Now off the top of my head, I can think of about 5 distinctly different ways to accomplish that task. Those ways are all different and so might be the names by which I call them. But the end result is the same; someone got thrown by way of my hip.

We could debate the distinctions about those "techniques", but really they are all just hip tosses. I guess it depends whether your interest is in the overall effect or the specifics that led up to that effect.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

I do not think that the fact that a technique has a descriptive name gives you a license to make it up. Let me rephrase it, the name denotes a specific technique. You can make up stuff five or 25 ways that satisfying the name, that does not make them valid Aikido. O-Goshi is a great Judo technique (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZ02P8M10c) but wearing a hakama while doing it does not make it Aikido. Here for example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZ02P8M10c (starting at about 3:40), Saito demonstrates, why is important to be able to turn towards your blind spot once the throw is completed. This approach allows for multiple attackers and indicates true Aikido quality.

You are right, in one case you get cut from behind by the other attacker and in the other you do not.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

I've seen koshi-nage adequately demonstrated and rationalized in several forms.

I accept the founders words that aikido is the form of no form based on my observations and experiences of nature and my practice in aikido.
I've also seen waves form and break in many shapes and sizes. They were all waves.

But like surfing, we've all gotta start somewhere.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

I do not understand all this oceanic imagery, what are you saying?

Re: Koshi Nage
 

.
Aloha,

I'll try to find another way to say it. I believe the imagery is fairly straight forward if you've spent some time in the water.

Not everyone is as fortunate as I have been to be able to be in the water and on the mat for so much accumulative time. So, I understand.

Maybe someone else who has had similar experiences could jump in..
I'll think on it some more.

Best,
Jen

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Oh fortunate one
Thank you for being so patient, please, there is no further need for you to meditate further on the issue.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Bet you never saw a square wave, or one with an orange color with red dots. No, these don't exist.

You call it what you want, but you will be cut from behind if you do koshi nage like that...

:square:

Re: Koshi Nage
 

And you might be a fat woman in a tutu. I've never seen you either.

I'm certain I haven't stated how I do koshi nage.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

And there is no need to be impolite.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Maybe.

And I'm certain I haven't stated how you do koshi nage.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

My mistake.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

That there are many ways of doing koshi nage, but as long as certain fundamentals are kept then the technique is recognisable as koshi nage.

That's how I understood it anyway.

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Sorry, I thought you were a native English speaker. For your ready reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you .

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Yes. That's a good way of saying it.
Thanks,
jen

Re: Koshi Nage
 

Yes, but here we're talking about Aikido's Koshi Nage in contrast to other arts' Koshi Nage(s). And one fundamental to keep is "watch your back; that foe has friends!".

Re: Koshi Nage
 

If (big If) the sword wielding unfriendly guy is behind you, but maybe he is not behind you...

Kihon Waza is not Oyo Waza.