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-   -   Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15220)

Shane Marcum 10-06-2008 08:41 PM

Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
As I'm sure most will agree, the "Twenty Year Technique" has numerous variations. Some dojos appear to teach it directly in line with Irimi Nage, while others may start students with it and Shihonage as their initial projections.

I have a very technical question relating to the technique. I have been more successful using this technique against shomenuchi by following irimi-tenkan-pivot. By this I mean entering off the line to the outside as the attack comes in; cutting down on Uke's attacking arm and securing the neck against my shoulder as I tenkan; and depending on the momentum, pivoting at the end as I bring my arm up, then down across the face, neck, and upper body.

Does anyone else perform this technique in this manner?

mickeygelum 10-07-2008 07:36 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Mr. Marcum,

I know it as Aiki-nage...as you said, it has numerous names and variations.

Train well,

Mickey

ps.....(whispers)...and it does not take twenty years...:D

Carsten Möllering 10-07-2008 07:46 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Hi,
I'm not shure about what technique you talk. And I have never heard of a "Twenty Year Technique".
Is there picture or movie clip on you tube?

Carsten

sorokod 10-07-2008 08:48 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Shane Marcum wrote: (Post 217723)
Does anyone else perform this technique in this manner?

Probably. Check out YouTube.

Ketsan 10-07-2008 09:27 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Sounds like irimi nage ura to me.

Carsten Möllering 10-07-2008 09:35 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
maybe

I thought of a form of sokumen irimi nage = naname kokyu nage?

Carsten

C. David Henderson 10-07-2008 09:40 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 217746)
Sounds like irimi nage ura to me.

That's what I would say.

DH

gdandscompserv 10-07-2008 10:02 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Does it look anything like this?
http://www.aikibatto.com/aikido/vide...-iriminage.wmv

ChrisHein 10-07-2008 10:13 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
We do that technique and simply call it: shomen uchi Irimi nage. We call a million different techniques kokyu nage though.

We translate it as breath throw, or spirit throw. Although I hear it called the "twenty year technique" often, because it's suppose to take 20 years to perfect. However that's true of all Aikido techniques. Some people have 50 years in, and will still tell you they don't like their kokyu nage.

I think it's one of the most commonly shared techniques among the Aikido systmes.

Shane Marcum 10-07-2008 12:11 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 217752)

Ricky,

Yes, it is the second on performed in this video by Stenudd Sensei. Although, his footwork in the video is different than what I describe. That's where my question lies. Is my way wrong, or just "another way" of doing it.

Marc Abrams 10-07-2008 12:19 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Shane:

It sounds like a good technical start. I frankly use to consider all techniques to be 20 year techniques. Now that I am finishing my 20th year, I now call then 30 year techniques! Shoshin- Beginner's Mind. Never stop learning a technique.

Marc Abrams

Carsten Möllering 10-08-2008 04:22 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Shane Marcum wrote: (Post 217766)
Yes, it is the second on performed in this video by Stenudd Sensei. Although, his footwork in the video is different than what I describe. That's where my question lies. Is my way wrong, or just "another way" of doing it.

Ok, we call it irimi nage and our footwork is the same.

I can not imagine how irimi nage can work if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning round?

Carsten

phitruong 10-08-2008 06:37 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
19 years were trying to figure out what to call the technique, 364 days to debate whether we should or should not include internal training to do the technique, and 1 day to get it done. if you are lucky it happens on leap year, then you got 2 days. :D

kokyu = breath power => internal power with movement as an after thought. *put on asbestos underwear* picture anyone??? ;)

Carsten Möllering 10-08-2008 06:47 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 217818)
19 years were trying to figure out what to call the technique, 364 days to debate whether we should or should not include internal training to do the technique, and 1 day to get it done. if you are lucky it happens on leap year, then you got 2 days. :D

It's the other way round here: On the first day of training we get to know the name and we are said that working on technique by itself is internal training. Everything is said with that. The next twenty years we are only practicing.
On leap years we practice a little more.

Carsten

NagaBaba 10-08-2008 09:47 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 217808)
I can not imagine how irimi nage can work if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning round?

Carsten

The irimi nage can efficienlty work ONLY if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning. Other wise you create an opening and uke will spin out while you are doing tenkan. :p

Ron Tisdale 10-08-2008 10:23 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Mr. S and I are like minded there...I might not say *only*, but I would say most often.

Hi Dave...I see you lurking... :D

Best,
Ron

phitruong 10-08-2008 11:26 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
i am more of a mind doing atemi with the shoulder. but this being aikido where we suppose to be nice and all, I'll just cradle his head on my shoulder. i seemed to have more difficulty with the technique, because it against my nature, which is deep down, i am not a nice person. ;)

Flintstone 10-09-2008 06:31 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 217839)
The irimi nage can efficienlty work ONLY if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning. Other wise you create an opening and uke will spin out while you are doing tenkan. :p

Amen to that!

Carsten Möllering 10-09-2008 07:21 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Hi,
I love it, to be here. really do.
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 217884)
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 217839)
The irimi nage can efficienlty work ONLY if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning. Other wise you create an opening and uke will spin out while you are doing tenkan. :p

Amen to that!

Did you see the video I posted yesterday? We cut uke down by and while doing tenkan and turning. There is no opening because we conduct his movement and lead him in a way so he can't spin out.
Whe he is lead his coming up again, we lead his head to our shoulder and throw.

So don't you cut uke down in irimi nage "ura"?

If ukes head happens to be directly secured at our shoulder we don't turn but throw directly irimi nage "omote".

Carsten

phitruong 10-09-2008 07:32 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 217888)
Hi,
I love it, to be here. really do.

Did you see the video I posted yesterday? We cut uke down by and while doing tenkan and turning. There is no opening because we conduct his movement and lead him in a way so he can't spin out.
Whe he is lead his coming up again, we lead his head to our shoulder and throw.

So don't you cut uke down in irimi nage "ura"?

If ukes head happens to be directly secured at our shoulder we don't turn but throw directly irimi nage "omote".

Carsten

ask a BJJ or Judo person to be uke then do the cut down approach then ask him/her about what he/she thought of the opportunity for legs take down or scissor kick take down. just a random thought.

Flintstone 10-09-2008 07:39 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 217889)
ask a BJJ or Judo person to be uke then do the cut down approach then ask him/her about what he/she thought of the opportunity for legs take down or scissor kick take down. just a random thought.

Or simply ask someone good at kaeshiwaza, or someone that just have trained on it. Or in sutemiwaza, that is.

Ey, Carsten, even read CT saying Aikido simply doesn't work, so...

Ron Tisdale 10-09-2008 07:46 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

If ukes head happens to be directly secured at our shoulder we don't turn but throw directly irimi nage "omote"
...

Well, both omote and ura is done in the Yoshinkan with the head not going beyond the shoulder. Omote the head stays pretty much centered in my chest, ura the head still shouldn't (technically, in the Yoshinkan) go any further than the back shoulder. We do have some versions where uke is bent over more like what you are thinking of, but then instead of a large pivot we tend to body change cut down, body change and hit uke in the snozz, then throw them.

Different strokes and all that. I have seen some people who are VERY good at the style you describe, but I would say for *most* people (including me), there is just way to wide an opening without a compliant uke.

Best,
Ron

Carsten Möllering 10-09-2008 08:48 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 217889)
ask a BJJ or Judo person to be uke then do the cut down approach then ask him/her about what he/she thought of the opportunity for legs take down or scissor kick take down. just a random thought.

Ah, I see your point!

We have that in mind: We guide uke (or we try to ;) ) in a way that he can't get the legs or do kaeshi waza or apply sutemi. You can achieve that and control uke very good by leading his shoulder. So he shows me his back when going down. An he is off balance all the time.

We have always had judoka, jujutsuka and also karateka practicing with us in our dojo. That helped a lot.
And we have had over the years some seminars of jujtutsuka to explore things like this in Detail.

@ Ron: ukes head is never going beyond the shoulder in our practice. Like in all other techniques we try to have uke always before our center.

I have trained with aikidoka from Yoshinkan who did irimi nage in a very similar way, like we do?

Carsten

NagaBaba 10-09-2008 12:59 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 217893)
Ah, I see your point!

We have that in mind: We guide uke (or we try to ;) ) in a way that he can't get the legs or do kaeshi waza or apply sutemi. You can achieve that and control uke very good by leading his shoulder. So he shows me his back when going down. An he is off balance all the time.

We have always had judoka, jujutsuka and also karateka practicing with us in our dojo. That helped a lot.
And we have had over the years some seminars of jujtutsuka to explore things like this in Detail.

@ Ron: ukes head is never going beyond the shoulder in our practice. Like in all other techniques we try to have uke always before our center.

I have trained with aikidoka from Yoshinkan who did irimi nage in a very similar way, like we do?

Carsten

Unfortunately the reality is not so nice. While you cutting down and ‘leading' uke, there is (and it is clearly obvious from video) the space between nage and uke. This space it is an opening where uke can counter. The counter can be done in many ways:
1. as previously described by attacking the legs. There is nothing nage can do about it, because he is not locking uke by any physical leverage. Uke is so far from nage's center that nage can control him efficiently with his weight.
2. other nice counter for uke is simply to continue the spiral that nage started, turning in nage direction and then go completely out far from nage. I did it many times when I practiced with folks from that style and every time it was very big surprise and they were not able to find a way to avoid this opening. You don't need to be very advanced karateka, practice judo or jj to do so simple spin out. Everybody will do it very successfully. LOL

3. this cutting motion doesn't work with tall and heavy uke -- nage is using here only power from shoulders and not from center.

From what I understand , in this way of doing iriminage nage expect uke to simply get up once when he is on the tatami, so nage can quietly apply iriminage. Underlined concept here is that uke is harmonizing with nage, and not countering. Again - uke must be trained like Pavlov's dog :D otherwise nage is kaput!

sorokod 10-09-2008 03:56 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)
 
Shoulder control with Irimi nage (straight, not ura) as Saito Morihiro used to do: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouo6a...eature=related from about 6:40


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