Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
Just for general discussion:
"Internal Strength" is a loose translation of the term "Nei Jin" (roughly: "Internal Trained Force Skill"). The point is that "neijin" is a very common term, so "Internal Strength" would be the closest translation that is generally suitable. "Internal Power" I don't know anything about, but it seems to be a term that is a square peg in a round hole. "Fa Jin" is also sometimes loosely intermixed with "Fa Li". "Fa Jin" is literally "attack jin"; "Fa Li" is literally "attack strength".... the implication in both is a *whole body shaking issuance of strength*. "Li" by itself is just the word for strength and often implies normal muscular strength. "AiKi" implies a 'mixing of ki-strength' or a 'mixing of ki'. All strength and movement comes from ki in the body (which is interrelated with fascial strength), so a weight lifter can have 'strong ki', but he may not be able to manipulate that ki in the optimal way with his hara/middle/dantien. So if the aforementioned weight-lifter attacks someone who is skilled in 'internal strenght', there could be a mixing of forces which in turn defeats the weight-lifter. Hence, "Ai Ki". FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Best, Chris |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
Mike.
You've spurred my interest again. The terms and definitions are very clear and I learned something. I only have this question though: Who said this is Aiki? Is that a personal view? Plus Aiki implying a mixing of Ki or mixing of ki strength . Who said that? Is that a personal view, an internal arts view? Regards.G. |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Mike |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Mike |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Best, Chris |
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What do you think? David |
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The mixing, blending, combining? These words may well have been used in certain arts in the past and even today but they are not the terms mostly used by O'Sensei and thus his meaning for AI KI or even Ki. He most usually used the words harmonizing, harmonizes. The logic that O'Sensei knew about these historical and oriental views means that's what he meant is what I always disagree with for to me it's patently obvious he didn't. That's why I like to find out what your view of Aiki is as different from O'Senseis not to make yours wrong but to see the difference. It's simple really. Aiki prior to his AIKIDO had a meaning obviously and was no doubt to do with to whatever degree what you say. That's all good and useful to know and do and thus help make sense of some of Aikido. However, his explanations of Aiki and bu and Budo and Ki were different and it's that difference which made Aikido. Such is my view. I'm also learning from this that there are descriptions of heart, thus desire leads mind leads ki etc. Once again I then understand where others get these Ideas from and no doubt these are old chinese concepts from various arts. However I have never heard or read of O'Sensei or Koichi Tohei giving that sequence or holding that belief. In fact Tohei said the sequence is simply spirit-mind-body or ki-mind-body. This indeed may have led to those old heated debates between chinese and japanese as to Ki being different to chi. This will at least give you how some in Aikido relate to Aiki and thus see other views of it as different and belonging to something else, whether it helps Aikido or not. It's all interesting nonetheless. Regards.G. |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Best, Chris |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Mike |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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I don't want to put words in O-sensei's mouth. I don't have any agenda. But I really think we have a lot of work to do regarding understanding what he meant. So we do need to have these conversations. And we need to trace the kind of things that he said through a lot of mess in order to arrive at good translations. Looking at the traditional meanings of neijin-related terms that O-sensei would have read is a good way to do it, and the cultural, historical, and religious analysis that people like Peter Goldsbury, Stan Pranin, and Ellis Amdur do is also an important and necessary task. |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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No mistranslation. I don't buy this historian knows best logic. Historians gather data and should just give their data, which Stanley Pranin for example is good at. His opinion however or any persons opinion given to him is that only. Any conclusions drawn are coloured by the personal beliefs and understandings. Kanji can mean this and that. One word can have many meanings. Mostly I've seen that just as a way of avoiding what he said because people including those there at the time didn't understand what the word means even if he was to print it on their heads. They can't relate it to what he did so he must mean something else type of logic. Some or even much of what he said was either translated by someone close to him, in the same time as he was saying it and who understood English very well thank you very much. No looking back years later, no lack of understanding him as a person, no Kanji. Finally, using Ai when I was explaining Ki and what he said about Ki in respect to harmony shows another misinterpretation in english let alone japanese. ( a response to Mikes view of mixing ki, blending,) Regards.G. |
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Tohei spoke good English. His son made sure of the proper translations as he was there to translate. When it comes to religion and people trying to analyse it and compare this way and that invariably they miss what's staring them in the face. How can they analyse love and compassion and humility when they don't even know what it is in their own language? I don't know of a religion where the major enlightened people of it didn't say and preach about the power of love and compassion ans spirit, call it holy spirit, prana or whatever. The same words in many languages given over and over as lessons that few discipline themselves to understand. No mistranslation. I could take maybe ten sentences from a thirty sentence piece and ask someone to demonstrate it. Most couldn't. I suppose all ten sentences must have had different meanings then. mmmm. Don't think so. You can relate them to whenever, whoever, however but the fact is you don't understand them. As a famous modern seer said in music, 'don't believe the hype..' ha, ha. Regards.G. |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Best, Chris |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
But the fact is he said :ai: and :ai: :ki:, rather than specifically chosing "harmonize" instead of "combine" or "merge" or any other English term. The folks you mention translated as they did, that I will not argue, and there must have been some reason for the 10th dan rank promotions. But Tohei openly dismissed the way O-sensei presented his thoughts (in terms of kami, etc. see his interviews), so are we really entertaining the idea that Tohei fully respected the intricacies of the religious overtones in O-sensei's lectures? Combined with the famous "when I look back, no one is following me" comment from O-sensei, I do think it remains to be demonstrated if anyone ever has really understood and interpreted for us the entirety of what O-sensei said. Point being-- I don't see any one english term being correct when translating terms like aiki.
But... this is the non-aikido forum. The terms in the OP are the point. Mike, "aiki" and "IP" are the only terms in your list that are not directly related to Chinese (or older) usage. I get conceptually how aiki fits, but is there any direct link just in terms of terminology? |
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2 cents. Mike |
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So does everyone else who was there at the time. Why do you think he was such a phenomenon? Because it was the same ? Most admit they didn't understand him and they all spoke Japanese. So obviously it was not only different but outside of their definitions of Aiki. How can you take a 'fact' like someone gave him the name 'Aikido' and say that means x,y,z? That thinking treats him like an idiot as if he would just accept any name and wasn't too interested. Basically, the past to do with fighting you can understand and 'physical ki' you can sort of get but that's as far as most go. Just admit he went much further than that and stated it was nothing to do with the thinking of the past or how you would like to translate it so you could relate it to other things. Every time he was asked if it's like this or that in judo, or if he learned it from Takeda, or if it's sen no sen, etc. he answered no. Maybe translaters can't translate no. Regards.G. |
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You can search for something that someone ie: Tohei, dismissed and try to use that to serve some idea if you like and then everyone can say 'even Tohei said' How silly can you get. It wasn't Toheis way of presentation. Tohei was not of that religion. So it's obvious rather than an example. The one connecting factor that led Tohei, Hikitsuchi and others TO understand him was that they did a spiritual practice. There's one famous teacher who explains quite clearly the reasons why he and others couldn't understand what O'Sensei was on about and says it was because of the time difference and not knowing or understanding the old religious tales etc. He then goes on to say he finally understood only after studying zen, a spiritual activity. Others will know of whom I speak as I can't remember exactly who that was. It's not a matter of translating a word literally it's a matter of understanding conceptually. To understand conceptually you thus have to increase your spiritual awareness. Regards.G. |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Regards.G. |
Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.
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Best, Chris |
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Frankly, given the fact that Ueshiba came from a very traditional culture, I don't think that there would be much tolerance for people using traditional terms in any way that they see fit. It just wouldn't fly; there wasn't that "words mean what I want them to mean", etc., that you see in a lot of the current western counter-culture. 2 cents. Mike Sigman |
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