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-   -   Am I turning to the dark side? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14650)

Bill Danosky 06-13-2008 05:26 PM

Am I turning to the dark side?
 
I'm at an interesting juncture in my Aikido training path. The philosophy of the dojo I belong to is something like "power through perfect technique". I feel like I have a decent possession of the kyu waza and I'm even pretty happy with my jiyu waza. But lately I'm wondering how much there is beyond the mere techniques.

Yoshinkan Aikido is not known for emphasizing Ki. Chida Sensei famously held up his car keys once and said, "Ki? This is Ki."

I'm not so sure. There's a big part of me that says ALL martial arts are about war BUT I think my progress is leveling off because I'm still fighting instead of harmonizing. The Force is not strong with this one and whether it's "Jedi or Sith" I'm going to get to the next level.

I know what I should be doing but I'm just not buying into the "budo is love" thing like I need to.

crbateman 06-13-2008 05:32 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
So explore... The more you experience, the more you will know. How can you make decisions about your own path without having as much information as possible? In a nutshell, ki is for some people, but for others, it isn't.

Keith Larman 06-13-2008 05:43 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
As a guy who has been jokingly referred to as Anakin on occasion, I say explore. I've gotten out on the mat with folk doing daito-ryu as well as various other styles. For myself I hope to understand aikido better by better understanding its roots and influences. So I look to the weapons, I look to the originating arts, and I try to understand how what we do today came from those things. People like O-sensei did not develop his skills in one day from nothing. And many of his first generation of deshi themselves have considerable backgrounds prior to devoting themselves to aikido. So I see no reason why one shouldn't expand horizons in order to better understand what we do now.

YMMV, but I say explore and keep an open mind.

Enrique Antonio Reyes 06-13-2008 06:57 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Aikido is more philosophical than physical. Nope, you're not turning to the dark side you're probably just succumbing to reality...

Iking

SeiserL 06-13-2008 07:24 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
IMHO, some will consider this turn as towards the dark side because it is not the direction they are going. Others will consider it turning towards the light because that the direction they are going. Turning to the dark or the light is a matter of perspective.

Of course, I am one of those mat rats who are constantly respecting what I have while staying open to what I don't have yet.

Dathan Camacho 06-13-2008 08:37 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

I know what I should be doing but I'm just not buying into the "budo is love" thing like I need to.
Alright, I'm throwing this out there with my usual "I'm a young person new to aikido" caveat.

The shihan at my previous dojo used to joke with us sometimes and say "with all my love" as he completed a technique with a pin. We'd kind of laugh, because that statement always led directly to temporary pain and a tap out, which was ironic and funny.

But - if you put that in the context of a bar fight or something, where that pin, albeit temporarily painful, might prevent someone from doing something stupid and maybe going to jail, you could construe the pin, and the pain that accompanied it, as an act of love. Maybe it's a more enlightened, more evolved interpretation of the "take 1 life to save 100" philosophy.

I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this. I personally don't think you're at the point of "going over to the dark side." Love doesn't have to be a group hug.

Stefan Stenudd 06-14-2008 02:13 AM

A chance to retreat
 
Quote:

Dathan Camacho wrote: (Post 208735)
But - if you put that in the context of a bar fight or something, where that pin, albeit temporarily painful, might prevent someone from doing something stupid and maybe going to jail, you could construe the pin, and the pain that accompanied it, as an act of love.

Nishio sensei regarded every irimi entrance as giving the attacker a chance to stop the attack and retreat. This way, he saw aikido as a forgiving budo. His way of doing the aikido techniques usually contained not just one, but several moments where the attacker had a chance to halt and step back.

Where there is a winner, there will be a loser. I think that Osensei was aiming at a budo with neither, to do away with fighting completely.
It is an ideal, difficult to realize - but I think it should be strived for.
And oddly enough, this attitude leads to the most superior techniques.

Lauren Walsh 06-14-2008 03:54 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
One of my instructors once said that when he was training overseas a sensei told him "You are fighting; you will never learn anything!" I often remind myself of this when I find I'm resorting to strength and forcefulness.

As for the "love", I think it is something that can be contemplated on many different levels. It is said that "Budo is love". When one takes it upon themselves to learn a Budo form, they automatically assume a certain responsibilty associated with this. That is to protect the weak, uphold justice, promote peace, etc. I personally do not believe that learning a martial art should be purely a selfish endevour, but rather as a means to benefit others.

Then there is the philosphy of Aikido relating to Universal love and harmony, which is in turn embodied within the physical martial aspect of Aikido. But then I think these ideas stem straight from Budo itself, therefore itsn't strictly confined to Aikido.

At a technical training course I attended a few months ago, "love" was also defined as the respect you have for your opponent. Mostly it related to keeping correct ma-ai and a respectful distance from the very, very beginning so that you are in a somewhat safe and correct position before beginning any movement or technique. We were constantly reminded to "love our enemy" - not in an airy fairy way - but in a practical martial common sense.

You aren't drifting to the darkside!! You have come out and raised these questions for a start which is a fantastic way to start to explore these concepts.

Bill Danosky 06-14-2008 02:05 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Thank you, everyone, for your comments and encouragement. It's closer to the truth to say my intention's been to drift away from the dark side. I spent twenty years or so studying other martial arts and sought out Aikido a few years ago, attempting to soften my mentality.

My nature does tend to reassert itself so I have to stay focused on using my powers for good. So I'm trying to convince myself O Sensei's super powers were found through peace and love, hoping that will help me embrace it. But when you hit those plateaus in your training, the old habits seem very familiar and very alluring.

Dathan Camacho 06-14-2008 03:52 PM

Re: A chance to retreat
 
Quote:

Nishio sensei regarded every irimi entrance as giving the attacker a chance to stop the attack and retreat. This way, he saw aikido as a forgiving budo. His way of doing the aikido techniques usually contained not just one, but several moments where the attacker had a chance to halt and step back.
And he specifically pointed out these moments when he demonstrated techniques? Could you give an example, maybe a specific technique? I ask not to challenge the concept, but to understand it better.

Aikibu 06-14-2008 03:57 PM

Re: A chance to retreat
 
Quote:

Dathan Camacho wrote: (Post 208780)
And he specifically pointed out these moments when he demonstrated techniques? Could you give an example, maybe a specific technique? I ask not to challenge the concept, but to understand it better.

Yes he did. This is the basic philosophy behind his Waza.
I suggest clicking over to the Aikido Journal Website and perhaps purchasing his book or purusing Stan's excellent archive of Nishio Shihan.

William Hazen

giriasis 06-14-2008 04:51 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Or, others might just seeing you going Mando'ade, ner vode. ;)

Reject the jetiise and the darjettii.

mickeygelum 06-14-2008 05:17 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PTMSwr1h0

Mr. Camacho...Hope this provides you with your answer. Even though it does not address your question directly, it provides the answer to the question.

Train well,

Mickey

Dathan Camacho 06-14-2008 08:18 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Wow! That's an awesome aikido video, on many levels!

Thanks for posting that. Sensei Gelum, will we see you in Denver next month?

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2008 07:34 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Hi Bill,

I wouldn't worry about the peace and love stuff so much. I think Keith L.'s answer is a great one. Be open enough to get out and look at some different things, especially if they can provide context for aikido and where it comes from.

Some other important points (crucial, I believe) is to look at ***what*** powers your waza. Is your uke off balance the moment they touch you? Can you perform your waza slowly, and still have the same unbalancing affect on uke? Can you maintain your structure under non-cooperative attacks?

I think there are some answers to these questions, but I no longer expect someone to teach me these answers...I think we have to dig deep into our selves for these. Know your own body...and find the truly best ways to use it.

Best,
Ron

mickeygelum 06-16-2008 11:46 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

I think there are some answers to these questions, but I no longer expect someone to teach me these answers...I think we have to dig deep into our selves for these. Know your own body...and find the truly best ways to use it.
Ron Tisdale
The essence of self-victory.....:ki:

Mr.Camacho
...I am not sure at the moment. I will know in a week or two if I am able to attend Nationals or not. I am going to try, is Mink Sensei going to be there? Give him my regards, please.

Train well,

Mickey

phitruong 06-16-2008 12:18 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 208714)

I'm not so sure. There's a big part of me that says ALL martial arts are about war BUT I think my progress is leveling off because I'm still fighting instead of harmonizing. The Force is not strong with this one and whether it's "Jedi or Sith" I'm going to get to the next level.

I know what I should be doing but I'm just not buying into the "budo is love" thing like I need to.

"Resistance is futile!" oh wait! wrong sci-fi. wonder if the borg and the sith could join force, the borg of sith or sith of borg.

have not considered budo as love. compassion and mercy, maybe; not love. at least not yet. doesn't one need to know what fighting is before know what harmonizing, or vice versa? yin and yang sort of thing?

I also heard that the dark side threw great parties. :)

Bill Danosky 06-16-2008 03:09 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 208877)
Some other important points (crucial, I believe) is to look at ***what*** powers your waza. Is your uke off balance the moment they touch you? Can you perform your waza slowly, and still have the same unbalancing affect on uke? Can you maintain your structure under non-cooperative attacks?

Hi, Ron. You are well suited to hear my confession because it looks like you're also at a Yoshinkan school: My waza is more dependent on having good form than good movement. For instance, in Shiho nage I can keep my uke unbalanced, even when I'm working slowly as long as I have a good wristlock.

This is why I named this thread what I did. When you watch your uke's eyebrows raise, you know you're getting pain compliance, not real kuzushi. At this point in my practice, I feel like I should be getting beyond forcing non-cooperative ukes to receive the technique.

So I'm glad Uke can't do walkaways when I don't want them to. But I'm not having the magic Aiki moments I thought I'd have by now. I don't necessarily like torturing my practice partners but I'll take it over "Aiki-dance class".

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2008 03:22 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Hey Bill,

The 4rth Dans at the Doshinkan only cause me pain when they **want** to... :D I still have trouble keeping the "float" without *any* pain...but I can use much less than I used to!

Best,
Ron (don't look for magic, look for a LOT of sweat equity...)

Bill Danosky 06-16-2008 03:53 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 208914)
don't look for magic, look for a LOT of sweat equity...

Spoken like someone who has both!

Dathan Camacho 06-16-2008 04:23 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Ron, it sounds like you've reached the point where progress becomes harder to measure, i.e. when Aikido becomes less about memorization (like remembering footwork) and more esoteric, where you start to develop a 6th sense. Does this sound right? I can't really relate because I'm still in the memorization phase, but I'd be interested in hearing other's insight on this. How do you measure progression once you've covered all the basics and the milestones are less obvious?

Upyu 06-17-2008 02:27 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Dathan Camacho wrote: (Post 208919)
Ron, it sounds like you've reached the point where progress becomes harder to measure, i.e. when Aikido becomes less about memorization (like remembering footwork) and more esoteric, where you start to develop a 6th sense. Does this sound right? I can't really relate because I'm still in the memorization phase, but I'd be interested in hearing other's insight on this. How do you measure progression once you've covered all the basics and the milestones are less obvious?

Skip the memorization,
Cut to the chase find someone that can teach you how to train "what" is "supposed" to be trained in the techniques and you'll find all that rote memorization to have been a major waste of neuron space :D

rob_liberti 06-17-2008 06:38 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
well, as far as sith and borg, I think they covered that a to a degree with Darth Vadar.

As far as 6th sense, (first I find the first 5 are hard enough!): When I cut happo giri, I leave my mind with the previous cut all the way until I make the next cut. I do the same in multiple attack. So when I throw someone, I leave mental focus on that person until I deal with the next person. In that way, I develop some sort of 6th sense. I used to think it also had something to do with reading people's attacks a bit - but recently I've met people who move so differently that I'm not so sure that is as much of the same type of sense as I initially thought.

I believe that 7th sense in aikido is about seeing patterns of energy in nature and how it related to what you are doing with your body in martial arts. The Harmony of Nature does a great job demonstrating this type of stuff.

8th sense is probably getting into mysticism and is getting away from what I would consider aikido.

NONE of that has much to do with internal training. That doesn't have to be the dark sde, you can be an aiki jedi if you like.

Rob

Bill Danosky 06-17-2008 08:53 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 208946)
NONE of that has much to do with internal training. That doesn't have to be the dark side, you can be an aiki jedi if you like.

What if you don't like? Mmwaa ha ha ha ha.

Dathan Camacho 06-17-2008 04:49 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Robert John wrote: (Post 208935)
Skip the memorization,
Cut to the chase find someone that can teach you how to train "what" is "supposed" to be trained in the techniques and you'll find all that rote memorization to have been a major waste of neuron space :D

Right, but some of us are still mastering the first five senses - things like not falling down before uke! :D

Bill Danosky 06-18-2008 09:13 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Robert John wrote: (Post 208935)
Skip the memorization,
Cut to the chase find someone that can teach you how to train "what" is "supposed" to be trained in the techniques and you'll find all that rote memorization to have been a major waste of neuron space :D

That may be putting the cart before the horse-

They say Leonardo Da Vinci painted 1,000 hands before he painted The Last Supper. That may not seem related to Aikido, but the point is that you have to master the basics before you can really get down to doing any "art".

Extending that metaphor, you can see how artists spend years studying and working before they can even really say, "I'm an oil painter." As opposed to watercolors, pastels, etc. Then settle on a style, such as impressionism or cubist. Eventually they develop their own way of expressing their subject matter. Van Gough and Monet rendered scenes in completly different ways, and you might personally like one more, but neither is better.

Boy, I really wore out that simile, didn't I?

rob_liberti 06-18-2008 09:30 AM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
I'm not with you on this one Bill. The saying goes "Get off the slow elevator and run up the stairs."

There is power and finesse. I believe Rob J is saying find power - right now. Then learn finesse. Consider that finesse before power seems a lot more like cart before the horse. Feel free to disagree.

Rob

Stefan Stenudd 06-18-2008 10:29 AM

Art
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 209003)
They say Leonardo Da Vinci painted 1,000 hands before he painted The Last Supper.

I love the comparison. Aikido is art.
There's nothing as difficult to draw or paint, as hands. I wonder why.

Ron Tisdale 06-18-2008 12:30 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
I've seen two different approaches to this...train the generic patterns first, then work training internally. Or, train the body structure first, then either learn "technique", or better yet, your body will manifest technique naturally.

I really have no clue which is best, or even if one truly is best. I think people pick what is available in their area, and go with that approach (most often). Most often, the waza approach is what is available. Are rote patterns a waste of space? I don't know...I kind of like them, they make a pretty dance... ;)

Best,
Ron

crbateman 06-18-2008 03:08 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Two ends of the same sandwich. Doesn't matter which end you start with. You're hungry. Eat.

James Davis 06-18-2008 03:56 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Anakin eventually came back from the dark side. There's hope for you.;)

eyrie 06-18-2008 06:12 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 209003)
but the point is that you have to master the basics before you can really get down to doing any "art".

I believe Rob is saying that understanding the basis of applied power IS "the basics".

IOW, the "what" is "supposed" to be trained in techniques...is the basis of ALL techniques. So you can indeed skip the memorization part and really get down to doing the art. Mastery is simply being able to perform the basics "better".

Bill Danosky 06-18-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 209007)
I'm not with you on this one Bill. The saying goes "Get off the slow elevator and run up the stairs."

There is power and finesse. I believe Rob J is saying find power - right now. Then learn finesse. Consider that finesse before power seems a lot more like cart before the horse. Feel free to disagree.

Rob

Gwan Jang Nim always said, "We only get better at what we practice right."

Kevin Leavitt 06-18-2008 06:40 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Correct. so if you isolated, static, well defined techniques then that is what you will be good at. If you practice core body movements against a flowing, dynamic, and resistant opponent...then this is what you will get good at.

It all depends on what you want to be good at.

Bill Danosky 06-18-2008 07:38 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Or if you want to be really good, well defined techniques against dynamic, resistant opponents.

Aiki powers, activate!

Upyu 06-18-2008 07:59 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 209003)
They say Leonardo Da Vinci painted 1,000 hands before he painted The Last Supper. That may not seem related to Aikido, but the point is that you have to master the basics before you can really get down to doing any "art".

Sure, but that's my point, most people don't even realize what "basics" they're supposed to be mastering.

It's like calligraphy.
They have you draw tons of reps of straight lines, both vertical and horizontal before you even touch your first character.
Why? So you can get good at drawing lines?
:o

Incidentally calligraphy (at least asian) has everything to do the body skills being discussed.
It's why they make you do thousands of reps drawing lines. (Not that I understood this when I was 13 in bum"#$ck Nagasaki, I was too busy flipping paint at the girl next to me :D )

Dathan Camacho 06-18-2008 08:36 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 209007)
I'm not with you on this one Bill. The saying goes "Get off the slow elevator and run up the stairs."

There is power and finesse. I believe Rob J is saying find power - right now. Then learn finesse. Consider that finesse before power seems a lot more like cart before the horse. Feel free to disagree.

Rob

Rob,

I disagree, unless I'm misunderstanding. I'm 6'3", I weigh 235 lbs, and I've only recently switched from power lifting to yoga and circuit training.

If I look for power first, I'll never find finesse, or Aikido! :D :confused:

Gellum Sensei, Mink Sensei will not be joining us on the trip, but I'll be tagging along with one or two of my sempai. If you make it, we'll see you there. Just look for the big clumsy hispanic guy with the big smile on his face! :D

rob_liberti 06-18-2008 08:41 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Dathan, I think we have VERY different ideas about power. There is a power lifter training internal skills with us at Dan Harden's dojo/barn. He could probably squat the building off its foundation. And he is NOWHERE near the level of power Rob John and I are talking about. The poor guy's legs shake to the point he can't stand and pretty quickly because its just not about muscle power. In fact that kind of muscle power works against your learning internal power. (I'm certain that he won't be like this for very long as long as he stays with it.)

As far as shodo is concerned: I tried shodo (maybe shoji) and had no clue. A shihan at the art put her hand and her hara on my hand and did one of the practice lessons with me. A new world opened up to me. It was years ago now. I basically instantly gave up. I realized how deep the practice was and that I wouldn't have time to do both aikido and that (and everything else I was doing). I can recall that feeling vividly. I totally agree that it is all about internal skills. Now that I train them much more directly, I think I may get to go back to that in this life time after all!

As far as this thread is concerned, the possible is hard enough, why waste time practicing the impossible so much? I like waza too; it gets all of the stress I had been aware of out. I LOVE that. But, the internal skills applied to waza gets stress I had been unaware I had out. YMMV

Rob

eyrie 06-18-2008 09:12 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Nah... forget waza... ;)

It's a whole different way of moving and being.... you don't need waza...

Bill Danosky 06-18-2008 09:45 PM

Re: Am I turning to the dark side?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 209069)
There is a power lifter training internal skills with us at Dan Harden's dojo/barn. He could probably squat the building off its foundation. And he is NOWHERE near the level of power Rob John and I are talking about.

No, I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that if you power lift it makes all your techniques more powerful. Who was it that said that?:confused:


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