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-   -   How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13144)

Daniel Ranger-Holt 08-27-2007 02:22 PM

How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Just an honest question, of course ive asked my Sensei, Higher grades and would be interested to hear people views on this. Besides the entering at the beginning of the technique, i dont see another reason to train with the Bokken, as opposed to empty handed. I dont enjoy weapons training, all the time my pea brain is telling me "this isn't of much use" but of course i respectfully continue. But when i hear we have a whole lesson of weapons ahead i become uninterested. It feels pointlss, and im very stubborn :)

Im not talking about wrist excersices of course i understand the relevance there. I just want to understand more and hear other explinations, as to why we learn sword techniques, how does this effect our Aikido (i assume most dojos do??). I will share my senseis views on this once i hear some other peoples. Personally i still have a hard time seeing (besides where i said) how training to disarms someone with a sword, or how to cut them, slash them, is really helping my Aikido. Bear in mind i am a year and a bit newbie. :straightf

Chuck Clark 08-27-2007 02:31 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
One reason, Daniel, is that any problems with posture, movement, and, for example, hand - foot coordination is improved because of the exageration caused by the longer lever in your hands affecting your center of gravity. Your ability to deal with the aspects of target, distance, and timing fundamentals can also improve by training with bokken and jo. Of course, this all depends on whether the fundamentals you're doing with bokken and jo are sound in theory. If so you'll improve your tai jitsu. I have seen many students with problems in empty handed training improve through good weapons training. The fundamentals, of course, are the same.

Shany 08-27-2007 03:19 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Apart from the fact that weapons improves your balance and put your body in the correct posture, balance..etc, sometimes it is better and easier to understand a tai-jutsu (with hands) techniques when using a weapon.

for example:
Technique: Shio-Nage.
Weapon: Bokken.

Stand in a standard Bokken holding posture, (gyaku-hanmi, if there is other person infront of you), raise your sword as if you were doing yoko-men-uchi (side-head-inner strike) with your jo, and turn with ur bokken and body 180 to the right and lower your bokken as to finish the strike.

this is nicely done, and would help understand shio-nage with much faster understanding than just trying to do it with brute-force tryings mantra until the brain goes "ahhhhhh now I get it...".

SeiserL 08-27-2007 05:17 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
IMHO, if you move as if you have a sword (cut don't pull), your technique will improve.

John Ruhl 08-27-2007 07:41 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
For what it's worth, I find that paired weapons kata really highlight those moments when your concentration fails. Nothing like a wooden stick coming at your head to make you confront the fact that your brain just hiccuped.

As such, I think they are great tools for developing concentration and focus, in addition to the good things already mentioned.

-John

asiawide 08-27-2007 08:38 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Well... there are many different styles in aikido. But anyone can practice aikido(especially taijutsu) with other people from the different styles. For aiki-ken or -jo, is it possible? The basic kamae of aiki weapon is different. 11(foot position) style(like mondern kendo), 1 style(like koryu kenjutsu). Which one is right and help you to improve aikido taijutsu? Shihonage is a typical example for aikiweapon and taijutsu connection. But is it REALLY necessary to learn aiki weapon to do or improve proper shihonage? Is it a TOOL or OBJECT itself?

Janet Rosen 08-27-2007 09:15 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

Jaemin Yu wrote: (Post 187806)
Shihonage is a typical example for aikiweapon and taijutsu connection. But is it REALLY necessary to learn aiki weapon to do or improve proper shihonage?

Um....for some of us, yes.
I have used the bokken to demo shihonage to kohei and it has served for them as the same AHA! moment it did for me.
So, in that sense, it is very much a learning tool....and while I realize not all dojo include weapons, for those that do, I do not see that "learning tool" is something separate/distinct from the whole art.
The original poster was not asking "is training w/ the bokken an integral part of aikido" but "how does it help improve my aikido?" and I think many of us are providing specifics.

Karen Wolek 08-27-2007 09:32 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
All I know is that after 5 years of aikido, if my Sensei tells me to cut like a sword when we are doing empty-handed practice and I do just that.....man, does the technique work so much better!

Daniel Ranger-Holt 08-28-2007 02:51 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Brilliant, thanks everyone, appreciated. It has put the weapons training into a different light. I don't think i've asked enough questions about it.I was always told mainly for entering and posture, not much else. Interesting.

odudog 08-28-2007 12:29 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Just practicing a shomen cut {suburi} with the bokken will tell you many things about your Aikido such as:

shoulders are burning - not relaxed enough
stiff movement - not relaxed enough
out of breath - not breathing properly
bokken tip pointed down after cut - not in control
can't move hips well - not relaxed enough
can't move hips well - using arms instead of hips to provide energy
hands are tired - gripping bokken too tightly {not relaxed}
can't move hips well - kamae is too narrow or too wide
etc.....

wildaikido 08-29-2007 03:34 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Simple, if you can strike, or take a sword from, a kendoka, you will have no problem dealing with any one else, eg a boxer.

Regards,

Daniel Ranger-Holt 08-29-2007 04:05 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

Graham Wild wrote: (Post 188011)
Simple, if you can strike, or take a sword from, a kendoka, you will have no problem dealing with any one else, eg a boxer.

Regards,

I don't really understand how one translates to the other in this instance, can you explain further. If i can take a sword from my opponent, i will have no problem dealing with for example, a boxer?

Aristeia 08-29-2007 04:06 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
What everyone else said. Great for awareness - even better once the blade becomes shiny rather than wooden. I'll also add a couple (which may have been mentioned as I just did a quick skim of responses).

1. Centering. I can remember very clearly one particular student I had who I was struggling to get him to sink his weight. His movements were all up and a bit too floaty. I got him to start doing lots of jo kata work and his center started to drop.

2. Footwork. Particularly beginners sometimes are not as precise with their foot work as they could be. Usually this takes the form of extra steps, and just kind of walking around the mat as they do their waza as opposed to moving simply, strongly and with intent. Weapons practice is great for instilling that ability.

Aristeia 08-29-2007 04:10 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
oops double post

wildaikido 08-29-2007 04:15 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: (Post 188013)
I don't really understand how one translates to the other in this instance, can you explain further. If i can take a sword from my opponent, i will have no problem dealing with for example, a boxer?

I am not talking about a normal opponent, but if you can take a sword from a kendoka (someone who does kendo) then I honestly think you would have no problem dealing with someone like a boxer. Simply because the sward is moving faster then a punch, and you have to cover a longer distance (the length of the sword) to get in and disarm the person.

Even if you just have effective Tai Sabaki (body movements) against a swordsman, you will have no problems moving out of the way of a normal attack, eg a punch.

Regards,

Gonçalo Alves 08-29-2007 04:45 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
for me weapon training is just fundamental!!

learning proper maai, tai sabaki and difficult kamae like hitoemi!!

Aikibu 08-29-2007 03:17 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

Gonçalo Alves wrote: (Post 188018)
for me weapon training is just fundamental!!

learning proper maai, tai sabaki and difficult kamae like hitoemi!!

Exactly..."Aikido is the Sword"

To students of Shoji Nishio Shihan; A Bokken is the hub in which the wheel of practice revolves around. :)

William Hazen

CitoMaramba 08-29-2007 06:08 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 188086)
Exactly..."Aikido is the Sword"

To students of Shoji Nishio Shihan; A Bokken is the hub in which the wheel of practice revolves around. :)

William Hazen

Yes, and the jo is hub of the other wheel :D

Time for a new thread.. "How does training with the Jo help to improve my Aikido?"

Eric Webber 08-29-2007 08:38 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
I find that training with bokken significantly improves:
1. ma-ai
2. martial awareness
3. whole body coordination
4. mindfulness
5. physical power focus/concentration/delivery
6. ki extension (if you're into that sort of thing...)
7. ki-ai practice
8. awareness of hanmi and balance
9. understanding of empty hand techniques
10. overall mental health

Additionally, it gives me something to do at home when I cannot make it to the dojo for a class.

I specified "bokken" rather than "weapons" as I am partial to the bokken and tend to gravitate toward it in my practice. I'm sure there area folks who find these same things and more in practicing with the jo or another weapon. I should also specify that my practice includes basic suburi, solo kata, as well as paired practice (generally in the form of whatever was shown at the previous year's summer camp, plus our standard kumitachi).

Karen Wolek 08-29-2007 09:44 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
One of the classes tonight turned out to be just me and another 1st kyu. And Sensei, of course.

He had us do 500 bokken cuts first. Then we did freestyle for the rest of the class. He does not like my shihonage so I worked on that A LOT tonight. He mentioned while correcting my shihonage that this is why he had us doing all those bokken cuts, and that instead of pulling in and pushing down (two things we are never supposed to do, pull and push, and there I was doing them both in one technique, ha ha)...I needed to cut and extend, just like with the bokken.

That I just cut with a few minutes ago. 500 times in a row.

Heh.

Now, if only I remember that lesson the next time I do shihonage.

It was an awesome class...

ChrisHein 08-29-2007 10:40 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
When you wish to hit someone with a bokken, you will do it better.

CitoMaramba 08-29-2007 11:32 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 188111)
When you wish to hit someone with a bokken, you will do it better.

Yeah! Like this guy:


Walker 08-29-2007 11:47 PM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
"If we swing the stick for 1000 years we will become like Musashi. When we become like Musashi we will rule the world!" :hypno:

CitoMaramba 08-30-2007 12:11 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Quote:

Doug Walker wrote: (Post 188115)
"If we swing the stick for 1000 years we will become like Musashi. When we become like Musashi we will rule the world!" :hypno:

Ummm.. can I pass on the never taking a bath part? :D

Bronson 08-30-2007 01:35 AM

Re: How does training with the Bokken Help to improve my Aikido?
 
Well, after a lifetime of arduous training and personal sacrifice you'll be able to do stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBe0B...e=user&search= and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJyqZ...e=user&search=

And let's not forget that you're probably also learning to use the staff as well so we should take a look at the skill that years, nay, decades of dedication and living your life on the martial path can bring you ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc336...e=user&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqx-b...e=user&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsl01...e=user&search=

And here's a link for all the folks in the above clips: http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec19/ch222/ch222e.html

Bronson :D :p


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