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torn 07-08-2013 01:55 PM

Aikido for all or one...
 
I have been practicing Aikido for about 15 years and enjoy it very much but, something has been bothering me for a while. I practice with a group we will call X. My Sensei is fantastic and I thoroughly enjoy practicing there. The problem is that he frowns heavily on practicing with other Aikido organizations and cross-training in other arts. I am very open to learning new things and different perspectives and am troubled by this attitude, Whenever I mention another art or shihan Z from organization Z the subject is changed or ignored. When I travel, I am constantly reminded to practice with only organization X. I understand that in Japanese culture you follow your sensei no matter what and jump when they say jump (I think.)
I am honor bound and owe my sensei a lot but where do I draw the line? I feel that my path is more open and would like to pursue other interests but at what cost? I feel that cross training in other arts or Aikido organizations would greatly benefit my Aikido not to mention broaden my horizons towards budo. This is a tough crossroads I am at now....any advice?

phitruong 07-09-2013 11:37 AM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
can't tell you what you should do, but if it was me, and my sensei said that sort of things, i would walk out. luckily, my sensei and the higher up in our org didn't have issue with cross training or training with other organizations. actually, they encouraged us to go and train. blending of one isn't really blending, right? isn't that the core principle of aikido, i.e. blend with everyone and everything?

Gerardo Torres 07-09-2013 12:54 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
I'm with Phi, I would walk out. I was blessed with a main aikido teacher who encourage us to try as many different teachers as possible, even different arts. One reason a teacher or organization might have to limit outside training or cross-training is to protect a certain organizational or dojo standard... but IME the main motivator is usually just political. It's good to have and protect a minimum technical standard; however by limiting exposure you will most likely end up with close-minded students with too limited a skillset unable to operate outside their paradigm, and this is particularly dangerous in an art without universal standards like aikido. The founder and most of his direct students cross-trained to some degree, it seems disingenuous and egotistical to limit the student and art growth by imposing limitations in this regard.

Marc Abrams 07-09-2013 12:55 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
The "Japanese Culture" is not so clear cut. Many people in Japan study in other arts and dojos as an "open secret"- Done, but not talked about.

After 15 years of practicing, you are more than ready and capable of experiencing other styles and arts so as to integrate them into your own unique expression of budo. There is no good reason for your teacher to be so locked in to one way only for the students.

My own personal training began to make quantum leaps after I attended the Aiki Expo. Not only did I begin some really serious growth as a martial artist, but more importantly, I was able to begin to better grasp what my Aikido teacher was doing so that I could be a better student of his.

I run my own dojo now and I still train weekly with my original teacher (Imaizumi Sensei). I also train in and teach a style of Karate- Shindoryu (training in Japan several times a year directly under Ushiro Sensei), and train with Dan Harden as often as I can. I still look to experience other styles and teachers. I expose my students to my teachers, talk about what influences me and allow them to develop their own paths.

Life is short, so why allow other people to box you in?

Marc Abrams

Terry B. 07-09-2013 01:10 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
I haven't trained for 15 years, but I have trained long enough to know the tough spot you are in. Be with the same sensei for that amount of time is monumental and admirable. But, would I be wrong in saying a relationship lasting for so long isn't going to have a few bumps in the road along the way. But now you are at an important cross roads, asking what is the right decision.

I have heard of the type of the inflexible Aikido sensei who is very controlling not allowing students to cross train, visit other dojos or go to seminars. Many sensei's are insecure feeling they are the only one. Whether it is insecurity, or another reason you have to ask yourself after 15 years is this a healthy and productive relationship to be in? A relationship that doesn't let you grow and develop is stagnating.

You put allot of emphasis on your sensei, but what about you, don't you deserve to expand your horizons. Are you suppose to stuck in one place like the Bronte sisters never experiencing anything beyond the walls of your room, the dojo? A relationship is a two way street where both have needs and it is fair when one person in the relationship stifles the other.

The cross road you face is if you leave, you could burn the bridge of a 15 years relationship you value. By leaving, it means you violate a long held verbal contract between you and your sensei. By waiting until now to train elsewhere, your sensei may personally feel violated and hurt. Usually, the result isn't pretty and more risky when there is a long history, emotions run high, and feelings are hurt all the way around. After all, you are both human. If you stay you keep the relationship intact, but sacrifice your freedom, personal development and independence something you strongly seem to desire, I mean even crave. What is the direction to take isn't a easy decision for sure, or something taken lightly.

Is there a possibility to have a one on one talk outside the dojo between you and the sensei in private to make a compromise, a new contract? There is a chance no compromise will happen. The silver lining in that cloud is your perspective of your sensei changes. Change can be good, leading you to seeing the sensei in a different light. The benefit is the illumination of a new path to move forward on. It is not unreasonable to think the relationship has run it's course, and time to move on. Cutting ties is always difficult emotionally. I would be wrong, but as it stands now you are asking others if you should take an important risk associated with great value and merit. By the nature of reaching out to others maybe it is time for change of some kind.

sakumeikan 07-09-2013 01:46 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 327942)
I have been practicing Aikido for about 15 years and enjoy it very much but, something has been bothering me for a while. I practice with a group we will call X. My Sensei is fantastic and I thoroughly enjoy practicing there. The problem is that he frowns heavily on practicing with other Aikido organizations and cross-training in other arts. I am very open to learning new things and different perspectives and am troubled by this attitude, Whenever I mention another art or shihan Z from organization Z the subject is changed or ignored. When I travel, I am constantly reminded to practice with only organization X. I understand that in Japanese culture you follow your sensei no matter what and jump when they say jump (I think.)
I am honor bound and owe my sensei a lot but where do I draw the line? I feel that my path is more open and would like to pursue other interests but at what cost? I feel that cross training in other arts or Aikido organizations would greatly benefit my Aikido not to mention broaden my horizons towards budo. This is a tough crossroads I am at now....any advice?

dear anon user,
Speak to your sensei, explain your position.Ask for leave of absence,Train elsewhere and if possible remain in a cordial relationship with your teacher.If a talk with him/her is not a productive one, you can then decide your next course of action.Cheers, Joe.

Just a thought 07-09-2013 01:47 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
My solution would not to make a hasty decision of walking away. I hear you saying ideally you would like your sensei to give you the ok to train elsewhere. At the same time allow you to continue training with him or her. I agree you need to first talk to your sensei and work something out first before bolting out the front door.

Before you talk to your sensei put yourself in his or her shoes. I don't think your sensei is a control freak. Let's consider there is a very good reason why he or she disapproves training outside the dojo. Here is one of many concerns I would think your sensei has, when going else where learn something different in a different way than what is taught in the class consider the impact it on his or her teaching credibility. Undermining a teacher purposely or not, when bring in different information, approaches, theories, or techniques needs to be considered by you. Put yourself in your sensei's shoes, understanding his position.

If you work something out where you don't effect your sensei's teaching and knowledge credibility in his class, maybe you don't have to leave. Give it time, don't expect it to happen in one meeting. You may have to meet several times over a period of time. Be patient, understanding, and willing to work something out.

PeterR 07-09-2013 01:53 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote: (Post 327961)
The "Japanese Culture" is not so clear cut. Many people in Japan study in other arts and dojos as an "open secret"- Done, but not talked about.

In Japan I was encouraged to cross-train. The dojo I trained at was full of people from other styles and many members did various things.

I really am not so sure where this impression comes from - not the first time I heard it.

Krystal Locke 07-09-2013 02:25 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Is your sensei Japanese?

Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 327942)
I have been practicing Aikido for about 15 years and enjoy it very much but, something has been bothering me for a while. I practice with a group we will call X. My Sensei is fantastic and I thoroughly enjoy practicing there. The problem is that he frowns heavily on practicing with other Aikido organizations and cross-training in other arts. I am very open to learning new things and different perspectives and am troubled by this attitude, Whenever I mention another art or shihan Z from organization Z the subject is changed or ignored. When I travel, I am constantly reminded to practice with only organization X. I understand that in Japanese culture you follow your sensei no matter what and jump when they say jump (I think.)
I am honor bound and owe my sensei a lot but where do I draw the line? I feel that my path is more open and would like to pursue other interests but at what cost? I feel that cross training in other arts or Aikido organizations would greatly benefit my Aikido not to mention broaden my horizons towards budo. This is a tough crossroads I am at now....any advice?


Torn 07-09-2013 02:29 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Thank you for all your advice. Interesting enough my Sensei brings in many different Shihan for seminars with many different takes on our style of Aikido. Many of them are vastly different in their waza and outlook. So he encourages us to learn from these teachers but of course they are from our organization. So I think there is a form of control for the students to follow our "leader" of the organization and others who follow him as well. I find it interesting that my Sensei encourages to learn different ways of doing things yet other martial arts and organizations are taboo. I have been practicing for a while now and can see the weaknesses of only practicing our style.
Another conundrum is one of the groups I would like to practice with requires you to become a member of their organization, So in turn I would be a member of two "rival" groups. I am not sure if anyone has done that before. To many it may seem like a bad idea but in my quest for knowledge I am really wanting to try this. I am sure my Sensei would not like this very much.
I think talking to him is a good idea but I know it would be strongly discouraged to train in anything else. He is clear this "this" is the best style so why train in anything else. If I was told no then what? I keep deeply thinking about this and am really troubled by this situation.

Just a thought 07-09-2013 03:02 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Torn by giving information on this situation, it seems to me the best thing to do is reconsider your perspective. You are a veteran, your sensei is accommodating, and it sounds you sensei has a strong conviction. Don't you think than this is a matter of differing opinions? Your sensei has been at Aikido longer than you and has seen more of Aikido. He or she may have a good point, a point you haven't come to see.

As for your other problem, don't play with fire if you don't expect to be burned. A hugely important lesson, I learned when I was dating. Any good frat or like group do expect a level of loyalty and respect, and you been with your group for 15 years. Do you think it is unreasonable your group would, including the sensei would be upset that you trained with a rival group? In the work place that is a cause for losing your job. In at a higher level of organization like the government and military that is treason. Would it be bad to suggest some personal reflection and personal inventory to assess what you really want?

Broaden your scope, take a more dynamic attitude, it may help you make the right decision. A decision which could lead you to harmony and happiness. Good luck!

Keith Larman 07-09-2013 03:25 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Well, I'll toss in my 2 cents and say I've trained with sensei who didn't want you going anywhere else. That's fine depending on what you're doing. I find it odd in the context of Aikido, however, as it is such a big, wide, fluttering tent of things. And I can only think of a handful of people out there where I'd even want to do such a thing in that world.

In the world of koryu arts, well, that's a different issue with different factors.

I will also say the ones I've met who were adamant about "go no where else" were the ones who were most, um, how to say it, haunted by self-doubt themselves. I enjoy cross training. I enjoy getting out and learning new things. I do, however, recognize that if you're a teacher as well you need to be able to tread softly on issues of style specific methods and approaches, if for no other reason for the sake of the students.

But all that said I'm still somewhat baffled when I hear of people doing that. If you feel the need to go outside, well, it is your life and your training. If your concern with your sensei's position on the topic overrides that, well, that's a decision for you to make and not random strangers on the internet. ;) So I'm not sure how anyone else is going to help you on this one.

Best of luck.

Keith Larman 07-09-2013 03:27 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
I should add that a rank beginner should probably decide to devote some time and focus to their primary teacher. But after 15 years, well, you really should be in a position to deal with a little broadening of your perspective...

Malicat 07-09-2013 05:09 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 327942)
I have been practicing Aikido for about 15 years and enjoy it very much but, something has been bothering me for a while. I practice with a group we will call X. My Sensei is fantastic and I thoroughly enjoy practicing there. The problem is that he frowns heavily on practicing with other Aikido organizations and cross-training in other arts. I am very open to learning new things and different perspectives and am troubled by this attitude, Whenever I mention another art or shihan Z from organization Z the subject is changed or ignored. When I travel, I am constantly reminded to practice with only organization X. I understand that in Japanese culture you follow your sensei no matter what and jump when they say jump (I think.)
I am honor bound and owe my sensei a lot but where do I draw the line? I feel that my path is more open and would like to pursue other interests but at what cost? I feel that cross training in other arts or Aikido organizations would greatly benefit my Aikido not to mention broaden my horizons towards budo. This is a tough crossroads I am at now....any advice?

It is the 15 years that throws me off, to be honest. Many of the dojo chos in our organization train two styles, Arnis and Tae Kwon Do to start with, and the head of our organization trained with Hohan Soken, so there are also several schools that train Hakutsuru. New students are forced to choose which style they want to start in, either Aikido, or the other one offered at the dojo, but after a certain level of training is reached, multiple training is allowed, and even encouraged. I was invited to join a Hakutsuru class at our Hombu dojo when I was visiting after about a year and a half of training in Aikido. The invitation, more so than any rank, is a compliment, and acknowledgement that you are beginning to get a good grasp on the basics. I've also studied with a teacher from a different style of Aikido due to the travel distance to my original dojo when I had to move, and my dojo cho encouraged it.

If, after 15 years, you aren't good enough to learn from another organization, or study another art, I would be concerned about the level of teaching going on in your dojo. Since this is most likely not the case due to your dedication to your Sensei, I would worry about his (or her) reasons behind discouraging any other study. Unfortunately, I am probably too blunt, but my only advice would be to force a confrontation. Explain to your Sensei that you are frustrated, and you need an answer from him about the issue with other Aikido organizations and other martial arts, or you are going to have to look elsewhere for instruction, and set up a time in a few days for a personal discussion. Maybe he has a perfectly good reason that we aren't thinking of, or maybe he just hasn't fully thought it out either and those few days will give him time to reflect on his policy.

Hopefully this helps!

--Ashley

odudog 07-10-2013 04:22 AM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
You should talk to your sensei to find out exactly why he only wants his students to stay within the org. I can think of the problems arising from using different verbiage to the sensei having troubles keeping everyone on the same page during practice. It is also possible that he wants to keep his style of aikido pure to its origins ala Saito sensei.

I train in another art as well as self study in other aikido styles from videos and youtube. It can slip into your practice while on the mat.

Dan Rubin 07-10-2013 03:39 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Does your teacher object to your studying a different style of aikido, or to your studying with anyone from a different organization? For example, a teacher of Nihon Goshin aikido or Korindo aikido might be concerned about protecting that style from being corrupted by the influence of Ueshiba aikido, which is quite different, especially if you are a teacher in his style.

On the other hand, after 15 years of practice you should be able to understand how to use any newfound knowledge.

Torn 07-14-2013 12:10 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 327972)
Torn by giving information on this situation, it seems to me the best thing to do is reconsider your perspective. You are a veteran, your sensei is accommodating, and it sounds you sensei has a strong conviction. Don't you think than this is a matter of differing opinions? Your sensei has been at Aikido longer than you and has seen more of Aikido. He or she may have a good point, a point you haven't come to see.

As for your other problem, don't play with fire if you don't expect to be burned. A hugely important lesson, I learned when I was dating. Any good frat or like group do expect a level of loyalty and respect, and you been with your group for 15 years. Do you think it is unreasonable your group would, including the sensei would be upset that you trained with a rival group? In the work place that is a cause for losing your job. In at a higher level of organization like the government and military that is treason. Would it be bad to suggest some personal reflection and personal inventory to assess what you really want?

Broaden your scope, take a more dynamic attitude, it may help you make the right decision. A decision which could lead you to harmony and happiness. Good luck!

Thank you for your opinion. I definitely understand your perspective and views. I in my own view I do not see this other group as a "rival". I try not to view any other groups as rivals but as other ways up the mountain. I think what I would like is a broader perspective and true harmonious view of Aikido rather than us against them. I am loyal to my Sensei and our group but I think my path and views are diverging in attitude and training. I am really bothered by this internally.

Torn 07-14-2013 12:15 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 327973)
Well, I'll toss in my 2 cents and say I've trained with sensei who didn't want you going anywhere else. That's fine depending on what you're doing. I find it odd in the context of Aikido, however, as it is such a big, wide, fluttering tent of things. And I can only think of a handful of people out there where I'd even want to do such a thing in that world.

In the world of koryu arts, well, that's a different issue with different factors.

I will also say the ones I've met who were adamant about "go no where else" were the ones who were most, um, how to say it, haunted by self-doubt themselves. I enjoy cross training. I enjoy getting out and learning new things. I do, however, recognize that if you're a teacher as well you need to be able to tread softly on issues of style specific methods and approaches, if for no other reason for the sake of the students.

But all that said I'm still somewhat baffled when I hear of people doing that. If you feel the need to go outside, well, it is your life and your training. If your concern with your sensei's position on the topic overrides that, well, that's a decision for you to make and not random strangers on the internet. ;) So I'm not sure how anyone else is going to help you on this one.

Best of luck.

Thank you very much for your advice. I am happy to see others that have a open attitude towards "others" outside of your group. I do feel that my path is one of a ronin sometimes as I am the only one in the dojo with this attitude. Loyalty vs your own path....

Janet Rosen 07-14-2013 12:20 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 328127)
Thank you very much for your advice. I am happy to see others that have a open attitude towards "others" outside of your group. I do feel that my path is one of a ronin sometimes as I am the only one in the dojo with this attitude. Loyalty vs your own path....

Some folks end up that route for a while until they find a new compatible "home"

Torn 07-14-2013 12:23 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 327991)
You should talk to your sensei to find out exactly why he only wants his students to stay within the org. I can think of the problems arising from using different verbiage to the sensei having troubles keeping everyone on the same page during practice. It is also possible that he wants to keep his style of aikido pure to its origins ala Saito sensei.

I train in another art as well as self study in other aikido styles from videos and youtube. It can slip into your practice while on the mat.

I dont see that talk going very well. lol. I do see my Sensei wanting to transmit his teaching of his teacher purely to his students. But there is so much out there, isnt there much more to learn than this senior Shihan's style? Its not as if I am refusing to learn his style but I would like to learn more from others as much as possible.

Torn 07-14-2013 12:31 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Dan Rubin wrote: (Post 328006)
Does your teacher object to your studying a different style of aikido, or to your studying with anyone from a different organization? For example, a teacher of Nihon Goshin aikido or Korindo aikido might be concerned about protecting that style from being corrupted by the influence of Ueshiba aikido, which is quite different, especially if you are a teacher in his style.

On the other hand, after 15 years of practice you should be able to understand how to use any newfound knowledge.

I would say that my Sensei is loyal to organization X and only X. Other organizations are not talked about or referenced. I understand the need to follow your teacher for a while especially when you are a beginner as it may be confusing to learn at that stage.

Torn 07-14-2013 12:40 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
I think some of my problem is trying to decipher my own intentions. Is this an ego thing? Is it a valid subject? Am I ready? Maybe it is all of these above. All I know is that Aikido supposedly is the art of harmony, right? Where is the harmony? Are we harmonious as long as we stay in our group? It seems to me that real harmony or love does not discriminate against anyone or organization. Do I really have this progressive attitude or am I a clown with high hopes of a tarnished dream?
I wonder if Aikido is really what I am looking for sometimes...

Cady Goldfield 07-14-2013 03:27 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
After 15 years, a person has enough experiential wisdom to determine whether a particular art or discipline is right for him/her, and also to train in other arts without any problems. A sensei who frowns on this, seems like a controlling or jealous person who doesn't want his or her students to mature and pursue further development for their own benefit. Either that, or it's a money thing...

Torn 07-14-2013 04:41 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 328132)
After 15 years, a person has enough experiential wisdom to determine whether a particular art or discipline is right for him/her, and also to train in other arts without any problems. A sensei who frowns on this, seems like a controlling or jealous person who doesn't want his or her students to mature and pursue further development for their own benefit. Either that, or it's a money thing...

I dont think its a money thing at all. I think perhaps it is more of a "property" thing. I think sometimes students are seen as a commodity in the dojo and the Sensei is the owner. Or another perspective is a Father or Mother to children. I do feel there is a sense of ownership there but at what cost? Is the child supposed to become your clone? Are you to shield this child from other perspectives and views? Being a parent also I see some of the reasons why this may be happening but what is different is I am an adult. I will always be grateful for my time and training with my sensei but, the world is bigger than this organization or dojo.

odudog 07-14-2013 06:06 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 328129)
I dont see that talk going very well. lol. I do see my Sensei wanting to transmit his teaching of his teacher purely to his students. But there is so much out there, isnt there much more to learn than this senior Shihan's style? Its not as if I am refusing to learn his style but I would like to learn more from others as much as possible.

Don't talk. Listen. Ask his reasons why for not going outside the org then just listen for a clear definitive reasons. The "talk" won't go well if you turn it into a discussion.

jonreading 07-15-2013 11:22 AM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Things that help me keep perspective:
1. My training is #1. My obligation is to learn aikido to the best of my ability.
2. My Sensei is the guide I have chosen to lead me when I cannot see where I am going.
3. My dojo is the location that will provide me a safe and constructive environment in which to learn aikido.

I have met great instructors without a dojo; great dojos with terrible instructors; great students with no guidance. You get the picture...

It sounds like you have a trust issue - you do not trust your instructor is acting in your best interest by discouraging training outside your organization. In the kohai/sempai relationship, there is some mutual respect and trust required. In the deshi/sensei relationship there is some mutual respect and trust required. If your instructor has violated that trust, then you have a problem that may not be reconcilable. If you are insecure in your trust, then your instructor may be able to reassure you by providing some clarity about his decision-making.

There may be a point of introspection on your part in contributing to your solution. It is not uncommon in educational systems to experience insecurity as part of the learning process. The question is whether your insecurity is justifyible or not.

For example, it is not uncommon for first responders like medics, police, and firefighters to habitualize mundane tasks. While it appears to be unnecessary or even punitive, the task is actually intended to internalize actions that often are integral if not vital to successful response in an emergency. On the other hand, it is also common in martial arts to exclude training that may jeopardize the quality status of the instructor or organization when compared.

Torn 07-15-2013 01:12 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote: (Post 328135)
Don't talk. Listen. Ask his reasons why for not going outside the org then just listen for a clear definitive reasons. The "talk" won't go well if you turn it into a discussion.

Good point. The only problem is that if it becomes a lecture on why I need to only practice this style of Aikido, then what? I will have a definitive opinion from my sensei but, no feedback from my side. I honestly think I know what will be said to me and don't think it will change my opinion about the subject.

Torn 07-15-2013 01:32 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Jon Reading wrote: (Post 328151)
Things that help me keep perspective:
1. My training is #1. My obligation is to learn aikido to the best of my ability.
2. My Sensei is the guide I have chosen to lead me when I cannot see where I am going.
3. My dojo is the location that will provide me a safe and constructive environment in which to learn aikido.

I have met great instructors without a dojo; great dojos with terrible instructors; great students with no guidance. You get the picture...

It sounds like you have a trust issue - you do not trust your instructor is acting in your best interest by discouraging training outside your organization. In the kohai/sempai relationship, there is some mutual respect and trust required. In the deshi/sensei relationship there is some mutual respect and trust required. If your instructor has violated that trust, then you have a problem that may not be reconcilable. If you are insecure in your trust, then your instructor may be able to reassure you by providing some clarity about his decision-making.

There may be a point of introspection on your part in contributing to your solution. It is not uncommon in educational systems to experience insecurity as part of the learning process. The question is whether your insecurity is justifyible or not.

For example, it is not uncommon for first responders like medics, police, and firefighters to habitualize mundane tasks. While it appears to be unnecessary or even punitive, the task is actually intended to internalize actions that often are integral if not vital to successful response in an emergency. On the other hand, it is also common in martial arts to exclude training that may jeopardize the quality status of the instructor or organization when compared.

Thank you for your great perspective. I do honestly trust my sensei. I am grateful to him from leading me on this path and wonderful training. I just feel that he may be stuck in the old style way of thinking. The "Us" vs "Them" mentality. This seems to be a theme with the older generation of Sensei. He has practiced long enough to remember the "The Great Schism" in the early 70's. Should I engage in this mentality also? Stick within this group and only this group? This is the way and only way? My issue I think is not one of trust it is one of perspective. I have practiced with many from our organization and others outside of our group and find them all to be great people. I believe in my heart that there is great Aikido to learn from all groups out there. If I ever open my own dojo I would encourage cross training and training with other groups.

I think maybe another big factor that dojos would prohibit cross training would be the loss of a student or students to other organizations which I can see a problem. This I see as insecurity on the Sensei's part though.

lbb 07-15-2013 02:03 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 328155)
Good point. The only problem is that if it becomes a lecture on why I need to only practice this style of Aikido, then what?

Well, then your head explodes and the world ends.

I don't mean to make light of your concerns, but I've been thinking for a while that you seem to be borrowing trouble in this thread. What if he thinks this, what if he says this, what if he does this, what if he's doing it because of X or Y or Z. This is leading you nowhere good. There's a real danger in writing a big story (and this one is starting to sound like a 600-page novel) without checking your facts. Once the story is written, if you start to check the facts then and find that reality contradicts the story, you don't like to mess up your nice neat story, and you may be tempted to deny reality and follow your own story line. People do this ALL THE TIME.

I don't think you were necessarily wrong bringing your question here, but I do think that this community (made of people who don't know you or your situation) has long since exhausted any useful educated guessing about your situation. If you want to know the answer, ask the question -- not of us, of the only person who has the answers -- and then listen. If you don't get the answer you like, then either decide to live with it/make your peace with it, or go elsewhere. I don't see any other choice.

Torn 07-15-2013 03:05 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 328160)
Well, then your head explodes and the world ends.

I don't mean to make light of your concerns, but I've been thinking for a while that you seem to be borrowing trouble in this thread. What if he thinks this, what if he says this, what if he does this, what if he's doing it because of X or Y or Z. This is leading you nowhere good. There's a real danger in writing a big story (and this one is starting to sound like a 600-page novel) without checking your facts. Once the story is written, if you start to check the facts then and find that reality contradicts the story, you don't like to mess up your nice neat story, and you may be tempted to deny reality and follow your own story line. People do this ALL THE TIME.

I don't think you were necessarily wrong bringing your question here, but I do think that this community (made of people who don't know you or your situation) has long since exhausted any useful educated guessing about your situation. If you want to know the answer, ask the question -- not of us, of the only person who has the answers -- and then listen. If you don't get the answer you like, then either decide to live with it/make your peace with it, or go elsewhere. I don't see any other choice.

Thank you for your excellent point. The talk or confrontation will be inevitable and I unfortunately know what my fate will be. Thank you everyone for your contributions and ideas. I will find my way up the mountain be it on my own path or another mountain altogether. Thank you again.

lbb 07-15-2013 07:13 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 328162)
Thank you for your excellent point. The talk or confrontation will be inevitable and I unfortunately know what my fate will be.

If you're following the plot of the novel that you've already written, then yes, you know what your fate will be. You could let reality be what it is and possibly provide you with alternatives, but...that's a choice. If you've already decided on the outcome of a conversation, you might as well not have it. Only have it if you're willing to set aside your story line and listen.

NagaBaba 07-15-2013 10:24 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Longer I practice, less I'm enthousiastic to advice practice aikido in different styles/federations. You see, each of them has his own ' system' where the way you practice, exercises, all small elements have a sense. Once you take it out of such contex, they became almost useless.
I.e. for Iwama folk going to Yamaguchi style ( vice versa) is a quite nonsense.

For practice other martial arts - this is other story. Take a 1year brake from aikido. Dont tell anybody and go practice where you like. After, take decision what next.

phitruong 07-16-2013 09:18 AM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 328172)
Longer I practice, less I'm enthousiastic to advice practice aikido in different styles/federations. You see, each of them has his own ' system' where the way you practice, exercises, all small elements have a sense. Once you take it out of such contex, they became almost useless.
I.e. for Iwama folk going to Yamaguchi style ( vice versa) is a quite nonsense.

i have the opposite problem. the longer i practiced the more i wanted to practice with other styles. to me, each style originated from one of the deshi. each deshi had a picture/view of what O Sensei's aikido was. so essentially, each deshi had a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. the more styles i practice with, the more pieces that i have to be able to see a larger picture of O Sensei's aikido. for me, i don't like to just own one piece. i want to see the picture. of course, that's just me. other folks might view thing differently.

Another thing i looked at is that when i practiced with other styles, and if i can do what they do, then i know i have good mind-body control. if i can't, because i am stuck in my "style", then it means to me that i don't have good mind-body control. i got to be able to look at someone doing the technique and able to do it close to what they do. that is good mind-body control.

hughrbeyer 07-16-2013 10:28 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Sounds like you know what you want to do and you know it's best for your training. You're just dreading the confrontation with your sensei. So stop worrying and just do it, it's never going to get any easier.

There's actually a traditional Japanese term, which I forget, for when a student in a dojo leaves that dojo and wanders around to different places for a while learning different arts and different approaches. Sounds like that's what you want to do. Anybody remember what the term is? It probably won't help, but it would at least allow you to present what you want to do in a traditional context.

lbb 07-17-2013 08:49 AM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Hugh Beyer wrote: (Post 328197)
There's actually a traditional Japanese term, which I forget, for when a student in a dojo leaves that dojo and wanders around to different places for a while learning different arts and different approaches. Sounds like that's what you want to do. Anybody remember what the term is? It probably won't help, but it would at least allow you to present what you want to do in a traditional context.

Perhaps you're thinking of musa shugyo?

phitruong 07-17-2013 01:02 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 328204)
Perhaps you're thinking of musa shugyo?

i thought it was ronin.

NagaBaba 07-17-2013 06:27 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 328178)
i have the opposite problem. the longer i practiced the more i wanted to practice with other styles. to me, each style originated from one of the deshi. each deshi had a picture/view of what O Sensei's aikido was. so essentially, each deshi had a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. the more styles i practice with, the more pieces that i have to be able to see a larger picture of O Sensei's aikido. for me, i don't like to just own one piece. i want to see the picture. of course, that's just me. other folks might view thing differently.

Another thing i looked at is that when i practiced with other styles, and if i can do what they do, then i know i have good mind-body control. if i can't, because i am stuck in my "style", then it means to me that i don't have good mind-body control. i got to be able to look at someone doing the technique and able to do it close to what they do. that is good mind-body control.

I'll give you an example: for Sugano sensei all what happens before contact it is aikido, after it is merly jj. For Saito sensei or Chiba sensei - they require very strong and constant contact. You mix both approaches and not only beginners are completly confused and lost, but in long term you develop strange mix without any clear path.

phitruong 07-17-2013 07:31 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 328228)
I'll give you an example: for Sugano sensei all what happens before contact it is aikido, after it is merly jj. For Saito sensei or Chiba sensei - they require very strong and constant contact. You mix both approaches and not only beginners are completly confused and lost, but in long term you develop strange mix without any clear path.

the OP has 15 years of aikido under his belt. i wouldn't call that beginer, unless he's a very sloooow leaner. in my org, ASU, under Saotome sensei, his direct students, none of their aikido looked like him. he wouldn't want them to. as long as their aikido exhibit the principles that he and Ikeda sensei taught, then that's just fine. and they insisted that aikido has no styles. to me, "clear path" doesn't mean much. it's only "my path" matter.

Asiatic Budoka 07-18-2013 11:22 AM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 328162)
...The talk or confrontation will be inevitable and I unfortunately know what my fate will be.

How do you KNOW? Have you asked why he/she does not want you to "crosstrain"?

Torn 07-18-2013 12:06 PM

Re: Aikido for all or one...
 
I would like to thank everyone for all of their opinions on this subject. The input and opinions are really helping me through this process. I don't really have anyone to talk to about this and having different perspectives is great,

Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 328172)
Longer I practice, less I'm enthousiastic to advice practice aikido in different styles/federations. You see, each of them has his own ' system' where the way you practice, exercises, all small elements have a sense. Once you take it out of such contex, they became almost useless.
I.e. for Iwama folk going to Yamaguchi style ( vice versa) is a quite nonsense.

For practice other martial arts - this is other story. Take a 1year brake from aikido. Dont tell anybody and go practice where you like. After, take decision what next.

This is good advice. I understand where you are coming from. the advice about quitting for a year sounds like sound advice. I can get a different perspective without training Aikido for a while.

Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 328178)
i have the opposite problem. the longer i practiced the more i wanted to practice with other styles. to me, each style originated from one of the deshi. each deshi had a picture/view of what O Sensei's aikido was. so essentially, each deshi had a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. the more styles i practice with, the more pieces that i have to be able to see a larger picture of O Sensei's aikido. for me, i don't like to just own one piece. i want to see the picture. of course, that's just me. other folks might view thing differently.

Another thing i looked at is that when i practiced with other styles, and if i can do what they do, then i know i have good mind-body control. if i can't, because i am stuck in my "style", then it means to me that i don't have good mind-body control. i got to be able to look at someone doing the technique and able to do it close to what they do. that is good mind-body control.

I think I can associate with Phi on this subject. I want to practice different arts and different styles of Aikido to get the "small pieces" to understand the whole picture, Even training from a different perspective can enlighten your training in your main art. Sometimes an "Aha" moment can result much faster training the same waza with a different teacher or training methodology. I don't want to be stuck in my "style" or attitude that my "style" is the best. I would like to train with everyone and anyone without having being felt like a traitor at my dojo. I admire Ikeda Sensei at Boulder Aikikai for doing seminars with different styles and organizations without prejudice. That would never happen at our dojo.

Quote:

Shareef Muhammad wrote: (Post 328247)
How do you KNOW? Have you asked why he/she does not want you to "crosstrain"?

Once a while back my Sensei explained to me as soon as a students name plaque was put on another dojos wall, their name would be taken off the dojo wall. He has never practiced anything but our style of Aikido. Also many of the senior students have told me that he looks down upon cross training and try to discourage it. There have been many other times where he has passively stated that this Aikido style is the only style and our "leader" is the true "leader" of Aikido. It is very clear in my eyes that he wants his students to do Aikido X and only Aikido X.


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