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Ron Tisdale 08-06-2004 12:18 PM

Onegaishimasu
 
Hi folks,

I'm a yoshinkaner here, so bear with me...

In standard aikikai practice, people often say onigaishimasu to each other when requesting a partner to train with (please help/teach/instruct me, right?). Is this typically said by the jr. to the senior only, or by both partners, or by whoever is asking, and the one who accepts says nothing?

Based on the meaning, I usually say it in aikikai settings regardless of the rank of the person I'm asking to train with for a couple of reasons:

1) since I don't usually train in the aikikai, I figure just about everyone is my senior there

2) even if I am senior (or by some strange trick of fate, actually have something usefull to share) I have no problem asking for instruction from a jr.

Can some people from various associations here (in the states) and in japan enlighten me as to common practice and true meaning?

Thanks,
Ron (yoshinkan impaired / inhanced [your choice] aikidoka)

Chuck Clark 08-06-2004 12:49 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Hi Ron,

In my background, the meaning (in a dojo setting as opposed to in common use in Japan during daily activities) has been explained to me like this. Onegaishimasu = "Please, would you train with me?" Along with this invitation to do something together is an implied agreement that we'll do our best to do this as well as we can and take care of each other.

Juniors usually ask the senior and the senior nods or says something that acknowledges their understanding of the agreement.

This has been explained to me by several senior budo teachers in similar ways but the capsulized version above is mine.

I have heard many other interpretations over the years. I'm always curious to hear more...

Ron Tisdale 08-06-2004 12:52 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Hi Chuck!
So by this understanding then, it would be inappropriate for the senior to respond with 'onegishimasu', correct?

Thanks!
Ron

John Boswell 08-06-2004 01:10 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
An observation:

We have a nidan at my dojo who first studied aikido under Frank Doran Sensei in San Fransico. This nidan always begins practice with each individual with "Onegaishimasu" at the start of each technique. His definition of it is about the same as what Sensei Clark has said above, but I've never seen any issue with it as far as rank goes.

My interpretation of it is: it's just good manners! Saying Onegaishimasu is, in my mind, asking someone to train with you in such a way as to help you learn and neither of you get hurt. And afterwards, you thank them with "Domo arigato."

My organization is AAA, and I've seen it done this way at seminars as well as in my own dojo. Dunno if this will help... hope so. :)

Ron Tisdale 08-06-2004 01:14 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
It all helps, as it increases my understanding. Thanks,
RT

Greg Jennings 08-06-2004 01:23 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
http://www.aikiweb.com/language/onegai.html

Don_Modesto 08-06-2004 01:27 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Hey, Ron. I haven't paid enough attention to details while training to answer your question precisely, but fwiw...

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

...not directly pertinent to your question, but I hope it's interesting anyway. Take care.

Ron Tisdale 08-06-2004 01:36 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
kool, its good to get so much input. Jun's description is really worth reading, and gives me the impression that the form we use is pretty much stripped of rank connotations. I asked because someone recently told me that only a jr. would say this to a senior...it had never really struck me that way, and I kind of like saying it to anyone I'm training with. Of course, when in Rome...

Thanks again all,
Ron

ps, Hi Don, check out the latest post on e-budo in the AJJ dojo finder, you might have an answer...
RT

akiy 08-06-2004 01:44 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote:
I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

Basically, likewise here -- although I usually say, "Thank you!" after I train with someone.

It seems odd to my Japanese ears to hear "onegaishimasu" after training. It's usually said before whatever it is that you wish to have the other person undertake (eg train with you, pick you up at the airport, etc)...

I can say that I've heard senior people say that phrase to juniors, most ostensibly in bowing to start a class when they're teaching it. Of course, it's all intertwined in the Japanese hierarchical society. One might argue by saying, "onegaishimasu" that you're placing yourself "under" the other person (as you are, in a way, asking for a favor of the other party). As such, a person more senior might ask you if you can do something for them by asking, "Can you ------ for me?" rather than putting it as a "favor" of sorts.

But, to answer Ron's original question, I'd say that most of the time, both parties training will say, "onegaishimasu" to each other before training. It doesn't seem odd for me to say such to my partner regardless of their rank...

-- Jun

Charles Hill 08-06-2004 02:11 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

John Boswell wrote:
This nidan always begins practice with each individual with "Onegaishimasu" at the start of each technique.

The younger shihan/shidouin who teach the beginner classes at the Aikikai Honbu do the same, although their purpose might be to model proper behaviour for the students.

Charles Hill

Chuck Clark 08-06-2004 03:41 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Hello,

I often hear onegaishimasu used in reply to someone as they begin, however, there is a "different" intonation that seems to mean to me, "Yes, please lets do...thanks for asking" ... kinda and then thank you (in whatever language is appropriate) after the practice. This often happens quickly and informally depending on the situation, etc.

I do think the word implies an "agreement" or yakusoku that saying please in English does not often carry with it. I like the idea and custom of this understood agreement.

Good discussion, thanks.

senseimike 08-06-2004 03:55 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
I always understood it to mean "I ask of you a favor" or something in that nature. The students say it to sensei at the beginning of class to ask the favor of teaching them. The sensei says it to the students at the beginning to ask the favor of their attention. The students say it to each other to ask the favor of training and taking ukemi for each other, basically the favor of the use of their bodies. Just my take on it... may not be correct

Lan Powers 08-06-2004 06:08 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
As our instructor has put it to us, ...."Thank you for this favor".
You do the favor to train together....both sides gain. (aiki for it to benifit both without indebtedness implied, to my thought) I like Mike Taylors take on this. :)
Interesting to hear other viewpoints....

Charles Hill 08-06-2004 06:14 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Japanese kids in candy or toy shops scream " onegai, onegai, onegai" when they want mom or dad to buy something. So I guess it can be translated as "do it for me or you'll never hear the end of it."

Charles Hill

otto 08-06-2004 06:20 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Pardon my ignorance ,but i've never heard this word used on an aikido dojo as implied here...

I'm curious about its pronuciation , is in form of an answer? or more like a request?

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote:
Japanese kids in candy or toy shops scream " onegai, onegai, onegai" when they want mom or dad to buy something. So I guess it can be translated as "do it for me or you'll never hear the end of it."

LOL , I'll have to teach that to my niece :D

Quite a bit of interesting info guys , keep it coming..

maikerus 08-06-2004 09:03 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
I'm in Yoshinkan as well and when I trained in Canada I don't believe anyone ever said "onegaishimasu" on the mat (although we always bowed out with "arigatou gozaimashita).

When I came to Japan my first experience with the word was to Kancho Sensei when we were introduced as the members of that years Senshusei course. I remember having a really hard time trying to remember how to pronounce it as I stood up in front of everyone and bowed to him <wry grin>. At the time it was explained to me as "please think upon me favourably" or something close to that that doesn't have an English translation.

Aside: If anyone's interested I think I was told to remember "On a guy she must" and drop the final "T". Okay..not politically correct, but I did remember it! Also, for "doitashimashita" or "you're welcome" I was told to remember "Don't touch my mustache".

During the senshusei course we used "onegaishimasu" as part of our morning shinkoku (report) to the instructors, but not on the mats.

As I stayed in Japan longer I started using it more because it is a large part of Japanese society and language. Interestingly enough, now that I am running my own dojo I have found that most Japanese beginners use "onegaishimasu" automatically when they are beginning to train with their partners. Yoshinkan has a formalized "bowing to partner" before beginning a technique and my Japanese beginners add the "onegaishimasu" during that. My foreign beginners just look a little stunned at the whole bowing thing (unless they've been in Japan for awhile).

I have also noticed that Yoshinkan children's classes have the kids yelling out "Onegaishimasu" at appropriate times. And, now that I think about it, my son's daycare events have the kids lining up and shouting "onegaishimasu" at appropriate times to each other and to the parents.

My son also says "onegai" meaning "please" when he wants something. And if I don't say yes immediately it becomes "onegai! onegai! onegai!".

I guess all this means is that I see "onegaishimasu" as being a significant part of Japanese society (like please/thank-you/excuse me) and is taught to kids as they grow up (like please/thank-you/excuse me) and since we're studying a Japanese martial art we're picking up on this stuff.

As to why its much more prevalent in Aikikai than Yoshinkan...I haven't a clue. Maybe it's because us Yoshinkan types use "Osu!" to cover a zillion meanings that include all those covered by "Onegaishimasu" and we wouldn't want to be inefficient in our use of language <grin>.

Osu!

--Michael

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Berney Fulcher 08-07-2004 07:18 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
There seem to be a lot of Japanese phrases that are used very widely. I'm finding it hard to get a cross cultural/language handle on this. For instance in Aikido, it seems like "Onegaishimasu", "Hai", "Osu" are used a lot in a lot of very different situations.

I'm not sure if this question makes sense, but are there equivalent English / American phrases that would be similarly used? I'm just trying to get a gut level comparison that my mind can wrap itself around...

Lyle Laizure 08-08-2004 09:59 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Onegaishimasu as it was explained to me mean "please, I ask a favor of you" Specifically between practice partners it's sub meaning is that I am offering you my body to use as a training tool please don't abuse it. Between sensei and student I would assume it would mean the same.

batemanb 08-10-2004 01:30 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Tossing into the melting pot, I was taught that "Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu" is translated as "please do me a favour", or "please look kindly on me". "Onegaishimasu" is the shortened version but is used in the context "please look kindly on me". When I was in Japan, at my local dojo everyone said "onegaishimasu" at the first rei, and every time you started to work with a new partner (which was each new technique). At the Kobe dojo I visit often, they have the same formality. At the Aikikai Hombu, the same, but you stick with the same partner, my memory is fuzzy here, but I recollect saying it for each technique, but that may just have been me.

I don't recollect anywhere that seniors didn't say to juniors in normal practice, but I do recollect that if you partnered up with someone of a high level (6th Dan upwards), some of the Shihan just bowed, the onegai if said, was inaudible.

If we were changing partners, we would say "arigato gozaimasu" at the end of training with each partner.


rgds

Bryan

Robert Cheshire 08-11-2004 07:45 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
We use this phrase in Yoseikan too. I have always been taught, and as a result teach, that it means "please show/teach me." It is said by both individuals (senior and junior) because both can offer a teaching experience to the other. Obviously, the senior can teach the "technique" to the junior. However, (I think this is sometimes overlooked) the junior can provide the senior a new way to learn how to teach the technique. There are people that have limitations (skill, age, physical handicaps, etc.) where the technique must be taught a little differently than the "traditional" way. Simply said it is (should be at least) a reciprocal relationship. At the end of training we add the formal Japanese "thank you" for the same reasons - thank you for what you have just showed/taught me.

Ron Tisdale 08-11-2004 08:10 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Thank you all for your continued responses...I've learned a bunch!

Ron

Josh Reyer 03-03-2007 10:10 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
"Onegai shimasu" is one of those phrases that are a completely normal part of everyday Japanese culture that can sometimes be mystified and grandified beyond it's rather mundane usage.

First, a little linguistic background. As Jun mentioned in his linked post, "o + verb stem + suru (shimasu in this case)" is kenjougo, or "humble speech". One uses humble speech to indicate lower status, and/or modesty. However, "onegai shimasu" is so commonly used in everyday speech that it's actually moved to a different sphere. Rather than carrying connotations of modesty or lower status, it's more like teineigo, "polite speech". It's used in contexts when we'd use "Please", "Thanks," and "I'd appreciate it." For an example of the last two, my boss will frequently say, "You have to do A, B, and C. Onegai shimasu." My aikido sensei will say, "Everyone make sure you've paid the monthly dues! Onegai shimasu." Here the phrase has less literal meaning (sensei isn't saying "I humbly request your monthly dues,") it's more like a general softener tacked on to requests and orders.

Here's an example from our weekly meetings.
Manager: "Miitingu wo hajimemasu." (We'll begin the meeting.)
Us: "Onegai shimasu." (bowing in our seats)
Manager: "Onegai shimasu."

Here, again, the "onegai shimasu"es don't really have a specific meaning. We're not really saying "We humbly request that you do begin the meeting" (and the manager saying, "I humbly request your attention). The manager simply announces the beginning of the meeting, and our "onegai shimasu" is just an acknowledgment of that, and if anything marks a certain change in "kamae", from relaxing and joking before the meeting to being attentive and focused during the meeting. The manager's "onegai shimasu" is just a reflexive response (typically she's not even looking at us, but going over her notes or something). The meeting ends and everyone says, "Arigatou gozaimashita".

This is almost exactly the case in the dojo. Or at least my dojo. We sit in seiza, waiting for the sensei to begin the class. He comes over, kneels down, talks about some related business (upcoming testing, new member introductions, perhaps an acknowledgment of someone who's come for the first time in a while, etc.) and then bows and said "Jaa, hajimemasu. Onegai shimasu." We bow, say "Onegai shimasu" (except this is a dojo, so it's more like, "Ngai shmassss") and then right into tai no henko. Again, here they essentially mark the beginning of class, and acknowledgment of that and change of focus.

Likewise, the "onegai shimasu" between two students who are about to practice doesn't carry precise meaning (aside from maybe "Please be my partner"), and in my dojo, at least, is completely divorced from rank. Whoever notices the other person first is the first to say it, regardless of sempai-kohai. It's essentially an attention-getter/signal of change in attitude.

Another example outside of aikido: you'll see almost all interviews on TV/radio begin with mutual "onegai shimasu"es.

crbateman 03-03-2007 10:57 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Japanese is all Greek to me :D , but I have often wondered why, if "onegai shimasu" is supposed to be a formal statement in this context, should not "onegai shimashita" be used? My limited training has imparted that the "-masu" verbs are informal, and the "-mashita" verbs are formal. (Of course, I have also learned that there are seemingly infinite exceptions to this type of grammatical "rule". I think I'll stick to English. I have a hard enough time with that. ;)

Josh Reyer 03-03-2007 11:57 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote: (Post 170524)
Japanese is all Greek to me :D , but I have often wondered why, if "onegai shimasu" is supposed to be a formal statement in this context, should not "onegai shimashita" be used? My limited training has imparted that the "-masu" verbs are informal, and the "-mashita" verbs are formal. (Of course, I have also learned that there are seemingly infinite exceptions to this type of grammatical "rule". I think I'll stick to English. I have a hard enough time with that. ;)

Actually, "-masu" and "-mashita" forms are polite/formal. The former is the imperfective (present and future tense), and the latter the perfective (past tense). "Onegai shimasu" - "I make/will make a humble request." "Onegai shimashita" - "I made a humble request."

crbateman 03-03-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up...:confused: Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Josh Reyer 03-03-2007 12:32 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote: (Post 170529)
So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up...:confused: Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Well "Arigatou" derives from "arigatai", originally meaning "rare, precious", and thus to the modern meaning "grateful, thankful". "Arigatou gozaimasu" is a rather archaic form essentially meaning "(what you do/have done/will do for me) is rare and precious (and thus I am grateful)". "Arigatou gozaimashita" essentially means "(what you did for me) was rare and precious (and thus I am grateful)".

So basically you use "Arigatou gozaimasu" for something someone is doing or will do, and "Arigatou gozaimashita" for something they already did. Although "Arigatou gozaimasu" can also be used in that situation. My understanding is that the Japanese people collectively decided to do this just to screw with newbies to Japanese. :D

charyuop 03-03-2007 01:00 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
When I was a teenager I tried to study Japanese as self taught student. The hardest part was giving a meaning to a phrase. Many times you could translate the whole phrase, but not catch the real meaning, or misunderstand it.

I have always seen the Onegaishimasu as the English "Pleae". If you turn towards a dojo mate and tell him please it can be meant by you as in "please, step on the mat", "please, train with me", "please, help me learn", "please, I am a beginner, don't hurt me too much hee hee"...and so on. I have always seen as Onegaishimasu the same way, it is in the mind of who says it the meaning hidden in it.
Same way I gave my interpretation of Doomoarigatoogozaimasuta. Even tho literally it should mean "I Thanked You", I have always meant it as "I thank you for what you just did".

Joshua, I have a question. By what you said about Onegaishimasu, is it correct to say that it has a similar meaning of Doozo?

crbateman 03-03-2007 02:18 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 170530)
My understanding is that the Japanese people collectively decided to do this just to screw with newbies to Japanese. :D

Mission accomplished...

I have a brushing of O'Sensei's, and weeks of discussion among even native speakers transpired, without a firm consensus even of whether it should be read left-to -right or right-to-left.

Josh Reyer 03-03-2007 11:54 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: (Post 170532)
Joshua, I have a question. By what you said about Onegaishimasu, is it correct to say that it has a similar meaning of Doozo?

Just "Josh", onegai shimasu. :)

Doozo and onegai shimasu are quite different, meaning-wise.

One use of "doozo" is an intensifier in requests and prayers. In this way it might seem similar to "onegai shimasu", since it's so often related to "negau", humbly requesting or praying for something. But it's merely in an intensifier, essentially meaning "somehow, in some way".

"Doozo" is used in this manner, then, when offering someone something. Imagine you offer someone some food. In Japanese society, you downplay the quality of whatever you are giving someone, so you say, "Doozo omeshiagari kudasai". Translated somewhat stilted, "Please partake of this somehow." From this kind of usage it's become now commonplace in any kind of situation where you offer or give something to another person, or indeed, just handing someone something.

Me: So-and-so-san, could you hand me that stapler?
So-and-so-san (grabbing the stapler and holding it out in my direction): Hai, doozo.
Me: A, doomo.

And so now, when one says "Doozo tabete kudasai" (please eat this), it doesn't so much have the sense of "somehow, in some way", but rather, "Go ahead and eat, please!"

Josh Reyer 03-03-2007 11:55 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote: (Post 170534)
Mission accomplished...

I have a brushing of O'Sensei's, and weeks of discussion among even native speakers transpired, without a firm consensus even of whether it should be read left-to -right or right-to-left.

Seriously? That kind of thing tends to be easy to figure out... :confused:

Mato-san 03-07-2007 06:42 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Ngai shmassss....I like that...thanks Josh I get lost here sometimes. Great points made!

Ngai shmassss is that similar to the shop keeper that says agagozamassta? as you leave the mise?

MM 03-07-2007 07:26 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote: (Post 170529)
So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up...:confused: Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Let's see if I can translate this. :)

In Jeff Foxworthy terms.

masu, as in arigato gozaimasu would be if a relative came up to you and gave you ten dollars that they owed you. You'd say, right then, "Shiiiiiiit, 'bout time ya paid me back, Cousin/Uncle/Grandfather Slim." Translated -- arigato gozaimasu. (English - Thank you for repaying me right now.)

Now, let's say that yesterday your neighbor helped you round up five cows that had strayed beyond your fence. The neighbor had something to do so you didn't get to talk to him after you put the cows back in your field. You see the neighbor the next day and say, "Hey Billy Bob, ya'll sure got me out of a pickle tha ot'er day." Translation -- arigato gozaimashita. (English - Thank you for helping me yesterday)

Mark

Mato-san 03-07-2007 08:18 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
nice translation mark.....so we have past tense and present of thank you very much but what does onegaishimasu mean in the context of Aikido and in accord to rank and forms of speaking in a cultured kind of way in regards to the mat ,thank you? Josh? I think you already had a nice say on this...but it seems we are moving towards comedy.....I can handle that wait let me get another beer!

Mark Uttech 03-07-2007 03:31 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Onegaishimasu: "please, to share this practice..." That to me also means: "please, to share this moment". So it is an excellent honorific to use when writing letters, answering the phone, etc. I usually accompany it with a slight standing bow. It is a true way of bringing aikido into the world off the mat, which brings it to yourself as well.

In gassho

Mark

Peter Goldsbury 03-07-2007 03:54 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 170854)
Let's see if I can translate this. :)

In Jeff Foxworthy terms.

masu, as in arigato gozaimasu would be if a relative came up to you and gave you ten dollars that they owed you. You'd say, right then, "Shiiiiiiit, 'bout time ya paid me back, Cousin/Uncle/Grandfather Slim." Translated -- arigato gozaimasu. (English - Thank you for repaying me right now.)

Now, let's say that yesterday your neighbor helped you round up five cows that had strayed beyond your fence. The neighbor had something to do so you didn't get to talk to him after you put the cows back in your field. You see the neighbor the next day and say, "Hey Billy Bob, ya'll sure got me out of a pickle tha ot'er day." Translation -- arigato gozaimashita. (English - Thank you for helping me yesterday)

Mark

Here is an example commonly used in day-to-day Japanese. My nephew is staying with me and we spent a few days in Tokyo. At every station we heard this refrain on the Shinkansen.

As the train left Tokyo Station, and all the other stations on the route:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimasu.
Thank you for using the Shinkansen.

Shortly before the train stopped at each station:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimashita.
Thank you for using (=having used) the Shinkansen.

Best wishes,

MM 03-07-2007 06:46 PM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 170923)
Here is an example commonly used in day-to-day Japanese. My nephew is staying with me and we spent a few days in Tokyo. At every station we heard this refrain on the Shinkansen.

As the train left Tokyo Station, and all the other stations on the route:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimasu.
Thank you for using the Shinkansen.

Shortly before the train stopped at each station:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimashita.
Thank you for using (=having used) the Shinkansen.

Best wishes,

Ah, a very nice example, sensei. arigatou gozaimashita.

Mark

Mato-san 03-09-2007 08:28 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote: (Post 170920)
Onegaishimasu: "please, to share this practice..." That to me also means: "please, to share this moment". So it is an excellent honorific to use when writing letters, answering the phone, etc. I usually accompany it with a slight standing bow. It is a true way of bringing aikido into the world off the mat, which brings it to yourself as well.

In gassho

Mark

This is exactly how I would see it! But then again off the mat it holds different meaning based on context and by no means am I an expert I have only lived in Japan 2 years but if I wanted to make it simple I would say that it means "lets do" and applied to different situations it would take on a different meaning. Josh is more informed on this level.

Pauliina Lievonen 03-09-2007 10:38 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Onegaishimasu always reminds me of a phrase I learned when my family moved to a town in northern Finland when I was 9. Kids up there will ask each other, on the playground or coming to the front door "Will you begin me?" ("Alakkonää mua?") and yes, it's sounds just as odd and grammatically incorrect in Finnish. :D Anyway, what they mean is "will you come out and play with me?" and that's the same feel I have with onegaishimasu when I bow to my partner. :)

kvaak
Pauliina

Ethan Weisgard 03-15-2007 02:00 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote: (Post 77199)
Hey, Ron. I haven't paid enough attention to details while training to answer your question precisely, but fwiw...

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

...not directly pertinent to your question, but I hope it's interesting anyway. Take care.

Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote: (Post 77199)
Hey, Ron. I haven't paid enough attention to details while training to answer your question precisely, but fwiw...

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

...not directly pertinent to your question, but I hope it's interesting anyway. Take care.

Hi Don,

In reply to your question regarding Iwama dojo reigi: when we were in the dojo under the tutelage of Saito Morihiro Sensei, the person who received instructions or corrections from Sensei during the class would bow (zarei) and say "arigatou gozaimshita." The person's partner would bow as well (zarei) and say "onegaishimasu."

If the person who was the partner to the person who was being corrected wanted to, this person could also say "arigatou gozaimashita" instead of "onegaishimasu."

Other trainees who were in the vicinity of the people who were receiving the corrections would sit down while Sensei was demonstrating, to make room for him, and show respect. These people would also say "onegaishimsu" when he was done with his corrections. This is the equivalent of when Sensei would show a technique for the entire class, and then say "Hai, dozo" as a sign for us to begin training. All the practitioners would bow and say "onegaishimasu," before beginning practice.

I believe that the tendency for some Iwama practitioners to say "onegaishimasu" when they are finished training with their partner, and are bowing "out", may come from the abovementioned situation, and a misunderstanding of what to say and when. In this kind of situation you had one person (the one who received the correction) saying “arigatou gozaimashita” and a whole bunch of people saying “onegaishimasu.” It is possible that foreign students thought that they should use what most people were saying, namely “onegaishimasu” in situations like these.
The Japanese practitioners in the dojo would not finish a training session by saying say "onegaishimasu." I try to explain to students here in Europe who finish their training and say "onegaishimasu" that this is a phrase for beginning your practice with someone, and not a means to thank them. It actually indicates that you want to continue to practice!

Another possible reason for using "onegaishimasu" in other settings could be that people equate it with the ubiquitous term "osu." There could be a cross-over influence from “osu” since this is used for just about anything. I remember that Inagaki Sensei’s students would always say “osu” in the Iwama dojo, and Sensei finally told them that you don’t use “osu” in the dojo here-to which they all replied with a loud “OSU!” A great dojo moment!

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Josh Reyer 03-15-2007 11:58 AM

Re: Onegaishimasu
 
Mishearing may also be the culprit as well. Said in the quick and rough way that many Japanese budo folk tend to use, "arigatou gozaimasu" can sound a lot like "onegai shimasu." Particularly in the Kanto area, where "g" is often pronounced like the "ng" in "singer". As I said, in my dojo "onegai shimasu" often comes out as "Ngai shmassss." "Arigatou gozaimasu" often comes out "Ar'ga't'g'zaimasu". (Needless to say, it's not easy to transcribe!)


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