Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
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I think it is quite a stretch to compare Judo's simple motto "Maximum Efficiency, Minimum Effort, Mutual Welfare and Benefit" to the religious and spiritual concepts talked about by Ueshiba, including but not limited to Kami gods, Ki, peace and love, etc. Kano's concept was a general connection to well being while Ueshiba's was overtly religious, even if he did not expect people to follow his religion he preached it non the less. |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
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I believe there is a difference between personal belief and competence. What you are hearing from several other posters, including myself, is that usually good aikido is practiced by aikido people that at least understand Ueshiba's spiritual teachings, even if they maybe don't share his beliefs. I think that spiritual comprehension of the principles of is important to training and should not be ignored, just as I think that physical comprehension of the techniques is important and should not be ignored. |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
If anyone wants to see a good example of mysticism that all martial arts could do without, look no further than this thread:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8210 |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
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I don't really think that we are a polar as you might believe. Michael, Ueshiba had certain religous and spiritual beliefs. As do you and I, and so did Kano. What the "DO" arts become, cannot help but be influenced by the founders background. It does not mean that there is no room for other beliefs, or that they become the central aspect of the art. Last I checked, no one was required to sign a profession of loyality to the kami gods. I would admit that AIkido can be more overt in it's alignment to the spiritual aspects of the art than Judo. but the underlying philosophies are the same. Different paths to the same WAY. The ONLY point I have been making is that there is a philosophical and spiritual aspect to Judo as well, it is simply MORE than a collection of techniques. Why have the rules and such in judo. Why strip out many of the submissions etc? It is so you can have competition, and have harder training. Kano thought the WAY to personal improvement was through competitive and hard training. I know you have professed this. Many of you have made it clear that aikido is not your cup of tea. That is fine. It is sort of the pot calling the kettle black to profess the strictly combat and technical orientation of judo though, because that art too has many of the same underpinnings. |
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
Sorry Phillip, you are correct, and I agree with you, at least for me. I have no problem with those that want to focus or explore this area, I however do not have any interest in this extreme.
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
I would have described the problem that was displayed in the referenced thread was 'Faith' or 'Belief' in something without empirical knowledge of it, rather than the presence of the word 'ki.' The problem is a lack of skepticism or critical thinking - but that's hardly specific to aikido and (as noted above) not even general to aikido. I would roll my eyes as much over a team prayer before a football game (not being xian).
Personally, however, I find the *concept* of 'ki' beneficial in improving my technique. Whether it has any actual reality, other than a metaphor for the cumulative vectors of force involved or for the body language/intent percieved in an opponent, I don't know. I've heard similar metaphorical language from horseback riding instructors and crew coaches, though they didn't call it 'ki.' -Lk (apologies for jumping in towards the end, especially w/o having read the entirety of the preceeding argument. Reverting to 'lurk' for this thread). |
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Are you speaking of the sudden acquisition of knowledge like the old stories of technique being passed along by mountain goblins ;) Quote:
Bronson |
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Philip: I do not understand your post. Every major religion in the world has spiritual principles. What do you think the Ten Commandments are? What do you think those pleats on your hakama represent? I am not making any comments about spiritualism; I am making an academic argument that argues for a complete education of aikido. I am a libral arts graduate, but in order to graduate from college I was required to learn sciences. Why? I haven't titrated an GD thing in almost 8 years. Couldn't tell you what the atomic weight of Potassium is either. But in order for me to obtain a complete education that satisfied the academic criteria set forth by my school, I took chemistry, earth sciencs, and physics. That's why it's a complete education. Understanding the spiritual aspects of aikido, the analogies, the psuedo-experiences are important to training. Just as important as understanding the physical techniques, body movement and strength training. |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
My hakama pleats represent something?
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Principle, by definition, doesn't have to be related to religion or spirituality. Quote:
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http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...aido-l&P=21839 In a semi-literate society with a scarcity of paper, all kinds of everyday objects would be folded, knotted, gridded, etc, in patterns that were related to small catalogs of this kind. |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
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Judo is not a religion. It is not a spiritual journey. It is not a philosophy of life. Judo is jacketed wrestling. If some nut, like Kano, wanted to pretend it was something more, then he was just fooling himself. You don't have that sport-turned-religion-problem in America, because in the United States we have the Bible which is far greater Spiritually and philosophically than anything the Asians have ever produced. They are so starved for any type of spiritual or philosophical enlightenment, that they would worship ping-pong if they thought it would help (in china many of their ping-pong champions actually have stated that ping-pong is a "way" (do) of life.) Judo is not that important. Judo will never be that important. If a person came to my dojo, and had this view of Judo, then I would tell them that they were foolish. I tell you the truth, I have known people to give up happiness for Judo and they have been miserable ever since. But, what can we expect. When nuts like Ueshiba and Kano get so drunk on their own ego, and on that which they think they conjured up (which we all know neither one invented either system, but eclectically combined what they thought was important.) we can expect a whole slew of fools to follow them mindlessly. Do I have a picture of Kano in my dojo so that students can bow to it. To hell with that. Kano was just a man. A man who liked to wrestle. I would easily give up Judo if some idiot told me I had to bow to a picture of a wrestler. I do not bow when I get on the mat, and I do not bow to my opponent. Bowing is a leftover from mystical days of paying homage, respect, and worship to the many deities that are supposed to be present on the mat and in each of us. I do not bow because I do not hold to such Asian religious views. If you want to be a better person, then don't study Judo or Aikido. If you want to be a better person, then study the Bible. Bowing before you wrestle is like making the sign of the cross before you eat. I am not Catholic, so you are not going to see me do that either. Take your religious superstitions to the idiots who agree with them If I want to know if it is wrong to beat someone up, then I don't ask some sensei who knows Aikido or Judo. I read the Bible and find out what it says concerning this subject. Thats right, you don't have to practice shihonage a thousand times to discover it is wrong to hurt another person. You can read the Gospels and never have to break a sweat. Note that many people practiced fighting systems in the Bible, but they did not learn their theology from their wrestling (Jacob wrestled in Genesis for a submission). They practiced sword fighting and spear fighting quite often, but they got their theology not from such practices, but from revelation. Warfare is just one tool. It has its small place in the larger world view of man. It is not that important. Red Beetle |
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Jun, can we have this troll banned....Please? |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
Red Beetle, why do you hate Asia so much?
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
Even if one removes the mysticism, there is quite a lot of wisdom in the eastern cultures. I would never try to become asian, but I would certainly try to absorb the vast amounts of wisdom that pour from their teachings. And I think that, yes, it would make me a better person.
U. |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
Red Beetle wrote:
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Good discussion I thought until we had to go here. I vote for a ban as well if this is what we are going to be subjected to. |
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Where I'm beginning to become lost in this thread is that on the one hand there's a total discarding of anything remotely "mystical" in order to improve the martial art, while the examples used to show the misuse of mysticism are practitioners whose own capabilities are hard to overestimate. Am I a fan of mysticism and ritual? No, but I also don't disregard it as I am a firm believer in correct attitude of mind. If someone can find that attitude through following what, to others, is esoteric dross, I don't care. Monty, I think you're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. |
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You know, I wrote an entire book trying to explain Aikido principles without relying on Eastern dogma and still found it necessary to deal with 'ki' as a seperate chapter. However when I tried to explain it to a fellow whose handle was AIKI-JEDI@AOL.COM or something similar to that, I gave up trying. If you want to play samurai and pretend you're a Jedi Knight, God bless you.
I actually have dreams of a dozen of so Japanese walking out of a locker room. They are wearing chaps, ten-gallon hats, and vests along with their spurs and wooden six-guns. Their sensei tells them to line up and then shouts "Draw, Pardner!" They all jerk out their little wooden guns... I shudder. |
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Or based on what criteria did you come to this opinion? |
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
Hmmm.... I would think that *any* credibility he had had would have been thrown out with the baby by now....
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