Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
Curious as to what the IP/Aiki folks think of this video. Personally I'm quite impressed, especially with Mifune's sumio toshi at 1:09 of the first clip....is this a good demonstration of IT?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ye5D...eature=related Truly, Russ |
Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
Funny timing, Russ: my new class at the dojo follows a judo class (which seems to be more budo type, not sports type) and so just a few hours ago I was chatting w/ a fellow aikido student who has been attending the judo class as well - the subject of Mifune came up as we are both very familiar w/ the first of the two clips you link to - and my comment (in the context of thinking about the aiki seminar) was that his structure is amazing to me: with no feet on the ground he appears to remain in perfect balance with internal structure intact.
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
Definitely has it. You can't get kuzushi on him, because Mifune is downweighting and the other guy can't get under. Mifune is essentially relaxing and allowing the weight of his structure to go down the ground, so the guy who is trying to lift him cant because 1) he's fighting against the force of gravity 2) it's not like Mifune is dead weight, Mifune is a living thing who is manipulating the forces of gravity to keep in his structure in tact (and thus maintain a dynamic downweight) and to remain umthrowable.
Notice also when he threw (and throws the guy) the kuzushi is very subtle. You don't see it. No excessive pushing and pulling. At that time you pointed out, there is a millisecond there where you see him plant his feet to to set up, "get under". He just gets low to create momentum for his throw. The foreign player can't sense his balance being taken at all. |
Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
Thanks for the responses! I saw this just the other day and like it a lot.
Cheers, R |
Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
The sequence is he gets under lower than his opponent (think about why a moving train can take your balance, its "under" you) plants his feet and at that moment gets kuzushi, and then throws. He doesn't just "throw" you cause that would mean he's using brute force, and his body frame won't allow him to use brute force. Causing unbalance in the other person will allow the other guy to be light, and thus easy to throw.
But Mifune has developed it to such a subtle degree that the transition from kuzushi to throw is seamless that it almost looks like he's just throwing people at will without any unbalancing tricks. |
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Also, in your first reply you were talking about him being unthrowable, and I agree, but I wonder how much of that unthrowability is also him keeping his center away from nage? I've found that to be a very interesting thing to play with, though I can't do it against any pressure without some external shifting. I believe Ark does some demos along those lines where he'll squat and have two people push down on him from each side. They're connecting to him and pushing him down, but then he subtly shifts his center to break their connection and is able to just stand up regardless of the weight/power they're putting into him. I would imagine they're some of that going on with Mifune as well. |
Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
At the Aiki Principles seminar Threadgill sensei was speaking about not letting your partner feel your center (while touching theirs). This is the practice....moving, kuzushi and throw all while keeping ones tanden entirely relaxed......deep study.
R |
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Yeah, I think that's naturally the effect. A guy pushing onto a guy who is "lower" than the other guy, will naturally prop himself up, because the guy who's low is directing his "energy" or "center" to the ground. In that case, yeah, the table image is suitable. I got some "a ha" moments from watching some Kondo videos of him teaching a seminar and while people might suggest other Daito Ryu guys for good examples of "aiki", his demonstrations of aiki, while lacking in subtlety, gave me ideas as to why it's easy for small guys to throw bigger guys. Kondo would do aiki using aiki-age, and put his attacker on his toes, upon which Kondo would throw him. If you are on your toes, you are basically powerless, and you can be easily thrown. But I figured, you don't literally need to be on your toes, you just need to be unbalanced for you to be throwable. That's what I mean by "dynamic downweight". I didn't really explain. Why is that if a strong guy lifts a 150 pound weight and curls like its nothing, but can't throw a 100 pound dude (like Mifune)? The weight has a recognizable "center". It won't move. If you are strong enough, and can "sense" where the gravitational pull is on the weight, you can move it. But with a 100 pound guy, he can hide his "center" while maintaining a downweight anywhere on his body. So the guy will not be able to sense where the pull is on the 100 pounder, while the 100 pounder is mentally directing gravitional force affecting his body and consequently aligning his body in such a way that it desires to stay clamped to the ground. I don't know if that makes sense. Jeez this is hard to explain. |
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Or to put it another way, I think of using aiki to feel their center while not allowing them to feel mine. Or to keep mine controlled and invisible to them. So I can affect them but they can't affect me. Kuzushi on contact via aiki. Yeah, while really hard to explain it is so much harder to do (for me at least). Still learnin'... |
Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
And yes, with Toby he'll sometimes do this thing where he'll say "I have you, I don't have you, I have you again..." From the outside you don't really see much of a change. But when you're on the receiving end if you're reasonably aware of how they guys can probe to your center you can feel exactly what he's saying. Yes, he does then it goes away. Then it comes back. Subtle shifts. The problem I find with Toby (and others good at this stuff) is that I can't ride that feeling back in to his center. With most "normal" folk when they have me I feel them as well. Then the issue becomes one of strength, positional advantage, etc. So if they do the technique correctly and have me compromised then my ability to ride back in to them doesn't help me as much as it could. But with guys like Mifune what you see is the bigger guy, even with apparent positional advantage, cannot seem to latch on to him. And it takes very little for Mifune to get kuzushi all while not compromising himself. Cool stuff.
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Cheers, Russ |
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The tension/relaxation thing, I don't know where you got that because that's something I got from Systema guys. I've rolled with Vlad and he did the get my body to tense up in ways that would allow me to be easily put down. I don't know if this is the same as aiki though, unless you can explain more.
Keith I like that sandbag analogy! It easily describes what I'm trying to say, heh. |
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As far as calling it aiki, I think it depends on how its done. When done in the way we're talking about, using the body skills we're talking about, I wouldn't hesitate to call it that. Especially considering that it seems to conform to the common demos we see of aiki, which is getting under uke for kuzushi. Though I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time :) |
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This is said to be a clip of Mifune doing randori (year 1922).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_2EVfT03kA |
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If you've ever been foot swept by a skilled player, you will find there is no power in their move, just excellent timing and technique. Judo is based on leverage and not power. Competitions don't always show this aspect though. - |
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make sense? I think I got a little rambly there, but I hope it was clear. Do you agree or disagree with that attempt at a definition? |
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki
BTW,
How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie It has to be felt. |
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Is there a hint of sarcasm in that? You are either very wrong or very right. |
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So yeah, the guy has some serious skills. Seems obvious from the video. |
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not sure if serious or just being sarcastic... |
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