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-   -   Resistant Knife Training 1 (video) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24007)

Dan Richards 12-07-2014 08:47 PM

Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc9OwMhsCng

This is what using aikido against a non-aikido trained person armed with a knife can look like. It's not pretty, but the effectiveness is explored and demonstrated. This is a video clip from our class today, completely unrehearsed. The attacker's goal is to stab and resist.

Exploring different concepts and approaches to knife disarming.

Knife Tactics 1 - demonstrating the difference between effective offensive knife disarm, and ineffective defensive knife disarm.

Exploring degrees of effectiveness of Go no sen, Sen no Sen, and Sen sen no sen.

This will be part of an ongoing series on knife work. Comments and suggestions welcome.

Michael Hackett 12-08-2014 12:54 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Dan,
Your offensive attacking style of knife defense has a strong base in surprise. I would suppose a skilled and trained knife fighter would probably be prepared for your actions, but the standard issue thug on the street would be surprised at your approach. You got "cut" and that is to be expected anytime one faces a knife while unarmed. Were you successful? Yes, to a certain degree and maybe even more successful than with the more common knife defenses.

Unfortunately only two things work well for a displayed knife threat: be somewhere else, or be armed with a firearm and stay further than 21 feet away. Absent those two scenarios, the only question is how badly you will be injured.

You have an interesting concept and I would like to see you explore it further - and of course share it here.

Regards,

Michael

MRoh 12-08-2014 02:25 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Maybe it works if you want to disarm a child with a rubber knife.

MRoh 12-08-2014 03:16 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Just one example: between 1:25 ans 1:29 you would have been killed.

PeterR 12-08-2014 04:00 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 340999)
Dan,
Your offensive attacking style of knife defense has a strong base in surprise. I would suppose a skilled and trained knife fighter would probably be prepared for your actions, but the standard issue thug on the street would be surprised at your approach. You got "cut" and that is to be expected anytime one faces a knife while unarmed. Were you successful? Yes, to a certain degree and maybe even more successful than with the more common knife defenses.

Unfortunately only two things work well for a displayed knife threat: be somewhere else, or be armed with a firearm and stay further than 21 feet away. Absent those two scenarios, the only question is how badly you will be injured.

You have an interesting concept and I would like to see you explore it further - and of course share it here.

Regards,

Michael

I think you are too kind about the video and too dismissive of the capability of the thug who is very unlikely going to square off.

Dan

There was no resistance and more importantly no aggression in the knife attacks. I had the overwhelming impression that uke was putting himself in a controlled mindset at all times. At best you are exploring some ideas and kudos for that but a rubber knife wont hurt you and you could easily up the game and get a far better impression of what you would truly face.

Technically speaking - the first thing to do is get out of the way and then do you your business. Walking into an armed person is really not an option.

MRoh 12-08-2014 04:11 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
I hope nobody tries this out in reality.

Dan Richards 12-08-2014 04:44 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 341001)
Just one example: between 1:25 ans 1:29 you would have been killed.

He brazed me slightly as he crossed from left to right.

Dan Richards 12-08-2014 04:51 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 341003)

Technically speaking - the first thing to do is get out of the way and then do you your business. Walking into an armed person is really not an option.

That's not what I was taught by Nishio. In his school, doing your business is removing the way of the attacker. There is no "get out of the way ... and THEN..."

It's all one movement. Finished.

MRoh 12-08-2014 04:53 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 341005)
He brazed me slightly as he crossed from left to right.

What would that mean in reality, with a sharp knife and an attacker who is not just a dummy?

Dan Richards 12-08-2014 05:05 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 341003)
Walking into an armed person is really not an option.

It absolutely is an option. And often it is the best option. It's called irimi. Ueshiba's aikido was based on irimi.

http://.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irimi

Nishio, arguably one of the most studied and broadly experienced martial artisis of the 20th century, entered into the attack with frightening frequency in his curriculum.

And it all depends on the timing and approach.

http://www.aiki-shuren-dojo.com/pdf/Go%20no%20sen.pdf

PeterR 12-08-2014 05:07 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 341006)
That's not what I was taught by Nishio. In his school, doing your business is removing the way of the attacker. There is no "get out of the way ... and THEN..."

It's all one movement. Finished.

I doubt very much that he advocates impaling yourself.

The taisabki is integral to the technique but has the added advantage of leaving room for failure which is very likely with an aggressive truly resisting attack.

PeterR 12-08-2014 05:14 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 341009)
It absolutely is an option. And often it is the best option. It's called irimi. Ueshiba's aikido was based on irimi.

http://.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irimi

Nishio, arguably one of the most studied and broadly experienced martial artisis of the 20th century, entered into the attack with frightening frequency in his curriculum.

And it all depends on the timing and approach.

http://www.aiki-shuren-dojo.com/pdf/Go%20no%20sen.pdf

Sure, and all my favorite techniques in tanto randori involve irimi (please see the gif for one of my favorites)- just not running onto the knife. Taisabaki can be quite penetrating but it does avoid the thrust.

Dan Richards 12-08-2014 05:17 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 341007)
What would that mean in reality, with a sharp knife and an attacker who is not just a dummy?

Well, in the two times I've had to deal with people in real life who were swinging around knives, I disarmed them and put them on the ground. Another was an umbrella.

I had a student deal with being held at gunpoint last month, spilling the gunman into the street dazed, while he quickly removed himself from the area.

And the security people and healthcare workers I've trained to deal with violent people have...dealt with violent people, who have used bottles, syringes, feces, knives, loose change, lamps, sticks, stones, and even a Pittsburgh Pirate bobblehead doll.

MRoh 12-08-2014 07:23 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 341012)
Well, in the two times I've had to deal with people in real life who were swinging around knives, I disarmed them and put them on the ground. Another was an umbrella.

Mybe you were lucky.
But that's not an answer concerning the situation in your video. A real knife and a real attacker would have injured you seriously.
So this is no good publicity.

lbb 12-08-2014 07:24 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Markus Rohde wrote: (Post 341004)
I hope nobody tries this out in reality.

Well, Markus, they do say that in a knife fight, the winner goes to the hospital. If you think that effective defense against a knife means that you get off without a scratch, holding someone's training to that standard may be unrealistic and unfair.

Devon Smith 12-08-2014 08:46 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Sorry, but your attacker's goal was certainly not to "stab and resist". I'm in agreement with Peter and Markus. Train with a person who has intent, and you might get some outcome closer to reality.

http://youtu.be/9igSoJHEdUo

http://youtu.be/3zUI9NgBRTw

http://youtu.be/EDM6sV6666M

http://youtu.be/5r4NI5qmnf0

http://youtu.be/Wz-gQw7H3T4

Raw footage of reality with fatalities (not for the squeamish) http://youtu.be/75RTkGbiJpk

Devon

Devon Smith 12-08-2014 09:41 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
http://hakkoryu-kenshinkan.com/2014/...-probably-die/

Devon

Cliff Judge 12-08-2014 10:23 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
I watch the horrific "your knife defense sucks" videos as much as the next guy, and when they offer advice, to me it seems like they converge on the idea that if you can't get away, your best chance is to close the distance as much as possible. So while I don't think Dan's strategy is going to prevent him from getting cut, it doesn't seem to be all that bad.

jonreading 12-08-2014 11:34 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
I think your [more] realistic knife scenarios are going to be:
A. Present and confront (a scenario of drawing with intent to intimidate)
B. Occlude and assault (a scenario of drawing with intent to harm)
I am not sure "thrust and resist" fits into a category of practicality, and probably some knife people would contend that as a basic strategy in general - I have never heard a knife person use the word "resist" in knife play. If anything, they are less resistant... The vid sounds like its trying to describe responses related to a knife hold up gone bad, where your attacker presented a knife to intimidate compliance and has little skill to use the knife when the threat fails. I think this is a fair scenario because maybe people who commit this assault do not have training in using a knife. But, the scenario is completely different than a competent knife assault. You may need to clarify that scenario if that is what you are trying to describe.

Your description, "demonstrating the difference between effective offensive knife disarm, and ineffective defensive knife disarm," is somewhat inconsistent because you really only cover the groundwork to layout your claim, which is offensive knife disarming works. You never really cover the limitations of what you did, nor the successes of "defensive" responses. Kinda comes off with a clear bias. I think in this thread you do a better job of explaining that conceptually, you are entering. If that's the case, then offense and defense are probably not the right terms to frame the discussion. In fact, since everything we do in aikido should always be entering, your portrayal of defensive strategy is almost fictitious since you are certainly not doing aikido (which otherwise would have aiki, which requires entering). Does that make sense?

I would place a strong emphasis that this is conceptual work, not applied. I think I agree with a number of comments that imply this is not a good video to show success with this work. Even with an attacker who appears to be uncomfortable holding a knife and a defined attack strategy inconsistent with knife work, you make a lot of contact with the weapon in most of the scenario exercises. Also, you finish very few of the scenarios, even showing a little difficulty seizing the weapon during your control. I think you need to finish those controls to improve your portrayal of definite control during the attack with a clear conclusion.

While not as gruesome as some other vids, I do like this product:
http://youtu.be/iw4ft1L5a3U
If we had a Christmas list, this would be on it. Although, I am pretty sure you now have to get certified to even buy one of these things, let alone use...

Demetrio Cereijo 12-08-2014 02:19 PM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Dan Richards wrote: (Post 340998)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc9OwMhsCng

This is what using aikido against a non-aikido trained person armed with a knife can look like. It's not pretty, but the effectiveness is explored and demonstrated. This is a video clip from our class today, completely unrehearsed. The attacker's goal is to stab and resist.

Are you sure you uploaded the right clip?

aikijean 12-08-2014 02:23 PM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Again like I said in a another thread on almost the same subject. Nobody uses atemis or kicks in all the videos except one video with the big bearded guy. My tought is, if I am to get cut I might as well try to kick or punch as hard as I can.

phitruong 12-08-2014 03:06 PM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
have not heard anyone mentioned about suit of armor and flame thrower. a friend of mine told me that when you deal with knife, you should arm yourself with whatever you can find: roll up newspaper, rocks, sticks, belt, keys, cell phone, the poodle from the old woman, cat ... no not the cat as cat will hurt you more than the guy with the knife...., McDonald hot coffee maybe with some fries, fruits, jehovah witness guy, and so on. ..... and you should never arm yourself with an aikido person. :)

MRoh 12-08-2014 03:42 PM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 341017)
If you think that effective defense against a knife means that you get off without a scratch, holding someone's training to that standard may be unrealistic and unfair.

I'm not the one who thinks that.

The videos Devon posted, show that you can't handle a knife attacker like a little child whom you want to take away his chocolate.

PeterR 12-09-2014 01:53 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 341022)
I watch the horrific "your knife defense sucks" videos as much as the next guy, and when they offer advice, to me it seems like they converge on the idea that if you can't get away, your best chance is to close the distance as much as possible. So while I don't think Dan's strategy is going to prevent him from getting cut, it doesn't seem to be all that bad.

I agree with this - sometimes trying to break and run away generates its own problems or is just impossible to do. If you have to engage then engage and for sure don't limit yourselves to "Aiki" techniques or anything else.

I also think that testing what you think works or should work under pressure should give you a far better idea of what works or doesn't work. Besides its fun to explore.

My critique of Dan's video has really been about the titles claim backed up by the content. It really falls short but without too much effort the exercise could be improved.

Dan Richards 12-09-2014 11:36 AM

Re: Resistant Knife Training 1 (video)
 
I appreciate the comments.

What I'm wanting to demonstrate is the tactical approach of defensive vs offensive. And that a defensive tactic — waiting for someone with a knife to move in on you — is disastrous. And that by moving in preemptively when there is a high threat, your chances increase greatly.

As Cliff commented, I am in no way saying there is not a high chance of at least being cut. I mention that in the video — "It's a knife." Just in the same way you can't enter being afraid to get punched, you can't enter and be fearful of the knife.

We performed several attacks in the video, I was cut during a few, but I was never stabbed. And this is really exploring the difference between people going to the hospital vs people going to the morgue.

Also, concerning the knife wielding attacker in the video; he's is probably better at handling a knife than an average person. And even let's say he's below average. He was still easily able to slice me up multiple times when I took on a defensive posture. And that's the point. In fact I think that drives it home more clearly for those who might think he's a puny punk with no intent or real skills.

I absolutely100% stand behind preemptive, aggressive movement in on an attacker with a knife, We have found it to work over and over in our training and experiments. The Dog Brothers, and many others working with similar tactics have arrived at the same conclusions.

Conversely, taking a defensive tactic, and waiting for someone to begin moving towards you with a knife in motion, as often is the case in aikido training, has such dismal results over and over again, I wonder why it's even in aikido's training curriculum.

I also wanted to demonstrate that aikido can be quite effective with preemptive movements. There is an aspect of irimi that takes the courage to enter, to move past the fear of injury, to take control and dominate the situation.

I encourage anyone training aikido to conduct some experiments on defensive vs offensive knife tactics. And to do so with someone moving around with a knife, not just attacking with a tsuki that is delivered and then hangs in the air.

This is the first video on knife tactics. Perhaps I failed in aspects of the presentation. Possibly the word "resistant" set off some flags. Which I actually find interesting, since so much of aikido is practiced collusively.

Perhaps it would be as simple as changing the title? Something like: Knife Tactics" Offensive vs Defensive

And if I do that, is that concept demonstrated clearly in the video?


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