Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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Well of course, you are entitled to your opinion. As for me, speaking from my own experience, a little doubt is always a good thing to keep in the back of one's mind. Would you not agree? While I may not be the most serious martial artist on the planet, I am very sincere. Now if you ask me, sincerity and skepticism go a long way towards balancing each other over time. I have chosen not to comment on the video, itself. As such, I am thoroughly enjoying the varied display of people talking out their pie holes about which they know less than nothing. Quote:
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...? ...?? ...??? So Dan, would you like for me to arrange for you to ask Abe Sensei, yourself? . |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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Is there a specific culture or tradition where the above paragraph makes sense? It doesn't work mathematically. I'm trying to figure out how to interpret your remarks. Sincerely, Mark |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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The simple stuff Mathematically these two are the same, the difference being 1. 2-1=1 0+1=1 The less simple stuff The idea of zero being "nothing" goes far beyond numbers. Culturally, religiously philosophically and martially, the ideas of approaching infinity (maximum centrifugal) and the approaching the void (maximum centripetal) may very well be argued as what drives the forces within the universe. Maybe even so far as what created the universe. There is a concept in macrobiotics where something becomes so yin (or yang), known as "super-yin" (or "super-yang") that it turns in on itself and becomes the opposite yin becomes yang, yang becomes yin. In terms of direction infinity becomes the void, or visa-versa. This is where extending out to infinity at the speed of light will allow one to be anywhere in space/time, including nowhere and never. Here are some relevant quotes from Wikipedia: Quote:
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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No thanks I would be more happy to have him try and throw me either that way in particular or in any other way he thought possible. Hell I won't even fght back, I'll just use my meager understanding to try and absord and redirect, you know-try and keep up. I'll just be standing there and moving a little bit and seeing what power level and understanding of aiki he has-one on one. I don't want to hurt the guy or cause harm. As you can tell, I am just not buying it-even for one minute. I went down this road with some big shots before, from diverse arts. Does he come to the States? |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
I just want to comment on something that came up on page one about going at a 90 year old man with 'resistance'.
I am the probably the most vocal supporter of resistance training on this forum. I spend the majority of my posts trying to convey information and dispell false theories on what resistance training is and how it can be used to benefit any physical activity. However, even I would not go full bore at a 90 year old man. I would respect him, go with the flow and take a fall. Does that mean his stuff doesn't work? No it means I am a in shape 28 year old guy with years of training. Beating a 90 year old man (without his expressed request) would show nothing. Of course if he asked me to try my hardest to punch him in the face, well, I guess it's his own fault if he isn't ready. You do not need to fight your teacher to get better. Resistance training is not resistance against everything training. There is a time for both. There are great boxing coaches out there that do not get in the ring and spar their fighters to prove their teachings. My judo coach is a multiple national champion and 70 years old. I do not need to randori him to know what he is telling me is correct. I can see it though applying his teachings in my sparing against other students at my level and above me. In short (do I really have a short?) Aliveness training is good to help integrate and expand your own personal abilities, not for testing the abilities of others. |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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It seems to me that regardless of whether you are learning to use either power or a skill that "precludes any opportunity to be outdone by another", the same rules apply. I'm assuming that Abe sensei is better at that skill than you are; therefore, there is as much a skill gradient there as there would be with gaining power. The question goes from "how powerful can you become" to "how well can you learn to use the opposite of power", yes? If you are better at using your skill than I am at using internal power, you win. If I am better at using internal power than you are at using your skill, I win. The skills may be opposites, but the process is the same - you keep practicing to get better at something, which minimizes the chances that you are going to come across someone who is better at what they do than you are at what you do. Josh |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
I just try to be the best I can be at everything I do. If there is someone out there who is better then me, and he wants to take my life, there is naught I can do about it.
I accept that I can lose. I embrace it. Then I learn to minimize it. |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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Wang Yongquan at age 83 (maybe 84), confined to a chair: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=6-_qR-sP9js Wei Shuren, student of Wang Yongquan: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vaogb-2vdrU Demonstrations of sensitivity (ting jin) and internal connection. The partner's body becomes your body. A useful step on the way. But it may not be the same way that Dan Harden describes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlMC6gUoM&NR=1 Same stuff, different perspective? I think Akuzawa's "stuff" is closer to what Dan writes about than the taiji or bagua demonstrations. The methods the old Chinese gentlemen are showing tend to discuss how to directly affect the 'yi,' or intent + awareness, of the partner/opponent--leading it, tricking it, perhaps taking advantage of wired-in human reflexes relating to standing upright in gravity, perhaps playing with mirror-neuron systems or other elements of proprioception and "body maps" in the brain--the same stuff--maybe, but with a markedly different emphasis. Akuzawa feels like someone in a passing roller coaster has suddenly grabbed you and taken you along for the ride. Akuzawa is the roller coaster. Older Chinese gentlemen demonstrating the skills shown in the first couple of clips tend to lure you into the roller coaster car by holding the door open for you--they just don't get in with you. Putting this to use in fighting? To even consider that, you need to have the internal connection skills in the first place, to begin to feel what's possible. Feeling people who can demonstrate this skill can be an inspirational first step to engaging in the training. |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
He Josh
I agree totally It seems many assume 'power" to be a type of fixed strength to go through people. That is only one small portion of power. I could argue the opposite as well, having power to stand there and not receive much direct power as possible and be able to redirect it while retaining a higher percentage of retained balance without stress. you can stress the balance of most people with relative ease, then use directed force to undo them. Most I have met are simply undone when meeting the guys out there who's centers they cannot touch while they are moved all around. that level of sensitivity and softness can be ghosty soft, fleeting and hard to find or hit you like and anvil and crush you. So power is not a single entity. It is myriad, it is power in use. Having great body conditioning for internal power- leads to aiki. Or you could say "is aiki" if you were trying to be short. In my view you can have the former without the later but you cannot have the later without the former. |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
Don, excellent post.
Best, Ron (are you injured again? Or just bored on judo.com :D) |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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In the old Dojo Crashing Days The Tradition is You did not get to waltz up and challange the Sensei You had to deal with his junior then senior students first...If you wanted to test that Dojo's technical acumen Some posted that vid of the Chinese 94 year old man demonstrating his awesome IMA Skills and I did not see one Aikidoka post the desire to attack him to prove his technique... Here's ABE Sensei having fun and sharing his knowledge with a curious outsider and some folks want to dis him for it... With all due respect...Meet me at the Dojo. :) William Hazen |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
Don
Asking would be a waste of time. There are levels of resistance that are profound and refined and not gross resistance. What do you think I was offering to do? I'm a gentleman. The former-is a trained skill that is demonstrable and obviously different than a 28 yr old going after a 90 yr old guy. Come on guy. There are easy and small finite tests, larger tests, static and moving tests, and then while I am a lowly mudansha in Aikido I can fly and move quite well. So offering a shomen or a wrist grab, or just standing there and seeing if he can "suggest" I fall, can be a pleasant way to spend an afternoon for both parties. In fact I'd be willing to bet no one even breaks a sweat.;) That type of training is empty and requires conditioned responses or it will not work. It is that simple. |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
i wonder if he can dodge a punch from me when he does the 'kicking your ass with KI' thingi ...
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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The 94 yr old guy was doing small tests and display of skill involving........touching and grabbing. No one was flying through the air by a hand signal. Lets see I saw a video of Chinese guy who was in his 70's that was interesting. I went to meet him too. He had real power was not afraid to show it and delvered. In fact he delighted in it. There was no whining..and no "fighting" either. Though he did try a bit. tests William...tests. What part of two posts did you miss? Quote:
There is nothing personal here. |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
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But since you mentioned it. I would love to have a visual point of referance from you personally; So that I may better understand the points you are trying to make. :) Take Care. William Hazen |
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SO GLAD YOU ASKED!!!!! the simple answer is, "NO!" - I would say that your conclusion is based upon a "Western minded" method of analysis. This is not a case where we compare when I make you cry by hitting you and you make me cry by hitting me harder. We know where that will lead us. This is more of a case where you want to hit me, but I make you cry from loving you. Where might that lead us? Quote:
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O'Sensei taught Abe Sensei and what O'Sensei was teaching is authentic O'Sensei taught Abe Sensei and what O'Sensei was teaching was a series of not very good parlor tricks... There are many many layers of this rhetorical fallacy as you know Dan so do we really need to parse them? here's another one from my perspective as a dear reader... Rob Liberti whom I respect greatly and have started to develop a good friednship with says you're the real deal. I believe him Shaun Ravens who has personally taught by Abe Sensei and is a great dude whom I have practiced with says Abe Sensei is the real deal and I believe him... I am confused Why does this thread have to be like Thunderdome? it is equally possible with regard to Internal Power A. Both You and Abe Sensei are wrong B. Both you and Abe Sensei are right C. Abe Sensei is wrong and you are right D.If Abe Sensei is wrong then O'Sensei is wrong because Abe Sensei learned from him E. Abe Sensei is right and you are wrong F. We're comparing Apples to Oranges G. I have been hit on the head too many times with a surfboard help me out here and the rest of the gentle readers. :) William Hazen |
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Now I really have to go to work. Yes even folks in Malibu have to work once in a while LOL William Hazen |
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Pardon me, but I did no such thing. There are people in this thread who without any direct experience of anything even remotely close to what is happening in that video have decided that
I did not defend the "something" that you have dismissed. I pointed out that there may be "something" there that you
Pointing out something that may, in fact be true is not defending some irrelevant sensitivity-based ukemi drills, far from it in fact. By the way, I did not take your post personal at all, I think this is a very relevant discussion and being held at a fairly high level of respect in discourse. . |
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Now, I find Aiki to be the penultimate of of the potential for non fighting. I don't want to talk about me except to say I have stopped some rather interestingly capable people in without hurting them. There are many methods and means to neutralizing power without aggression Shaun. Aikido does not and never has had a corner on it. Ueshiba got Aiki from Takeda, then caught on to using aiki in a way that could be less violent. Though he most certainly has been a violent man himself. Practicing the physical form is but one aspect, and not the greatest. |
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Hi Shaun I had that post up and didn't see all the other ones until later sorry. I'm happy for the level of discourse too. I missed what you were pointing out. Help me out here. 1. We are agreeing that no one is touching each other 2. Are you stating there is a force throwing someone? 3. Are you stating that the ukes are rolling involuntarily? 4. Are you stating that this will work on someone not pre-conditioned to respond? 5. Or are you stating that there is most certainly preconditioning, that there is no force and it is an exercise that will not work on just anyone, but it is good for your aikido training? Thanks in advance |
Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
Hi WIlliam
No thunderdome exists except in YOUR mind. We're talking training method here guy...not fighting. I'm starting to believe you about the surfbaord hitting your head too often :-) |
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