Hormonal & Psychological Responses to Combat
<<Split from the "Dreaming MMA" thread>>
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This is black-letter stuff in unit cohesion doctrine: Quote:
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Oxytocin allows damaged tissue to remain viable longer and decreases stress effect systemically. Oxytocin causes contraction of myofascial tissues in a "smooth muscle-like" manner. On p. 53-54 you can see that mepyramine does also (a histamine or inflammation causing hormone), but NOT epinephrine (adrenaline), acetycholine (an muscle neurotransmitter) or adenosine (). It has been discussed here before that the stabilizing effects of faciasl tissue are likely important. Here too oxytocin causes fascial contraction that is demonstrably effective: Quote:
Gamma motor neurons are involved in spinal reflex cascades that involve the most fundamental motor functions of the body. Since induced contractions helps keep natural gait going at a reflexive level it is likely that myofascial contraction does this also. (Ob. Aikido -- My theory is that modulating and exploiting that reflex action internally, and using the same system of the opponent against him are a significant component of what we describe as the action of aiki (FWIW).) More interesting, in a conventional sense, induced contraction of mechanical tension in limb structure causes gamma motor neuron reflex responses to lose the normal neural "tone" inhibitions and thus they are allowed to become stronger and more responsive to a triggering gain. Myofascial contraction would have the same effect. Increased sensitivity to reflexive triggers with greater amplitude of action has obvious potential performance value in threat situations. Inflammation is partly mechanically caused by some of this same tissue response to histimane release upon wounding, and helps to stay blood loss. With the addition of oxytocin -- which has a positive feedback (think of labor in childbirth) -- my thought is that this tissue response to oxytocin may allow systemic tamponade of wounds far greater and for far longer than with histaminic inflammation alone. That would forestall blood loss and with the lessening of the stress reactions noted above -- delay the onset of shock -- which is the immediate cause of most traumatic death. The likely end result would be a leaking like a sieve and a shock collapse at the end when the oxytocin cascade subsides, and there are anecdotal reports of just this kind of post-trauma behavior in extraordinary performance events of this type -- the guy is clearly wounded but hardly bleeding as engagement ceases, but then collapses and bleeds out almost at once. It also suggests a thought for an addition to the "golden hour" frontline medical kit. |
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Read Hillman's introduction and you may have more sympathy for O Sensei's resort to mythic terms for dealing in love and the killing instinct. |
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http://killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm and here http://killology.com/article_psychological.htm Quote:
Spending time at your local VA Hospital with wounded vets is evidence enough of this. William Hazen |
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Why do you disagree with him? I don't see your point more broadly though. In a martial setting SOMEONE is by definition bent on harm, so whatever our statistical cases boil down to on rough tendencies, how does that position practically affect the psychology of the conflict? |
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Thanks for the info Erick. I will read it over. To be honest, this is outside of my area of expertise for sure. What I am interested in is how martial training methodologies might play in this whole process.
Based on the whole "detachment" thing and the vignettes above and my own experiences in military training, it would seem to suggest that we can inculcate habits through repetition and near real replication of the conditions in which those desired responses need to be triggered. Do you see anything different than this? I am not sure what the correalation between oxytocin and adrenalin is, all though I believe it makes sense to me if we can keep the adrenal response as low as possible, in my personal experiences, it causes me to stiffen up, and to move faster...things which I have found to NOT be good. Frankly BJJ and Judo Competitions have proven to be a great thing. At first I was all hyped up on adrenalin with the noise, crowds and the unknown and all that....over the years I have learned to deal with that and I am pretty darn level headed now. Not sure where you and I stand on this...are we on opposite sides of the fence...or the same side? |
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I submit to you the number is in the single digits... What the single largest producer of casualties in War Time....Answer... Technology If War is a natural state and men don't mind killing that much" Why do Armies Spend Billions of Dollars removing their soldiers further and further away from the consequences of their actions through the use of technology? I could go on...but my point is Killing another Human Being is not a "natural state of being" and for the average soldier despite all their training goals that condition them to kill... they still suffer huge psychological and emotional consequences for their actions... Unless of course they are Sociopaths. As for someone being bent on harm...In my experience that harm is mostly based on fear Though I have had experience with those whose intent goes beyond fear into malice. I am enjoying the discussion about hormonal responses to Violence" and look forward to more of your posts on the topic. William Hazen |
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That said, I think it's healthier (so perhaps in a sense more a part of our nature) to operate from an other-regarding, love-based intent, than an anti-social one (killing being perhaps the ultimate expression of anti-social behavior). |
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I think history shows that when circumstances are such that we differentiate between humans who are Us and humans who are Not Us, it becomes pretty easy to get a group of Us to decide its ok to kill Not Us. Unfortunately, those circumstances are pretty common.....
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IMHO, just because war is common in history does not mean its natural for humans.
Very few humans (agreed probably only single digits) ever see war. Of those who see war, very few see combat. Of those who see combat, very few even shoot to kill, let alone actual kill. While most humans will have a similar biological and psychological reaction to stress (combat) its the individuals reaction (through intent and a less degree through training) that directs their reaction to the situation. Some will flee, some freeze, only a few will run towards and fight/kill. No one knows their reaction until they have actually been there. So lets not generalize from those very few brave individuals to the rest of us. |
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I just realized that I'm engaging in a thread creep away from the subject so apologize and withdraw.... |
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I've found that those people who wax eloquently about war and killing have rarely experienced those factors to any meaningful depth. Those whom I know for certainty that have the experience don't like to talk about it.
I side more with William Hazen in his analysis. |
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I'm drawn to William's point too, but I'm not sure it conflicts with Erick's main thesis, which is not about reluctance to kill, but about heroism to protect those joined by close emotional bonds. Like William, I'm enjoying that part of the discussion too.
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Thus, training to promote oxytocin response under threat could potentially diminish or positively impact the incidence of combat related PTSD and dissociative disorders. It is known that animal studies show oxytocin in both increases agression towards sources of threat and inhibits it toward offspring.. Oxytocin modulates the HPA (hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal) axis with still poorly understood (especially in males) but significant associations as a modulator of stress response. The Services' continued attention to issues of "unit cohesion" -- which is our technical name for this form of human love (and that is what it is) is correct and invaluable. Anything that detracts from promoting that protective response in threat environments (vice the adrenal survival threat-response) increases elements aiding survivel and units effectiveness and likely helps diminish individual impacts post-combat. Quote:
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Eric, fascinating stuff. I'm curious if besides oxytocin there has been any research you've seen about possible role of PARAsympathetic system - the one that will lower pulse and BP, and presumably what is engaged in various learned/trained relaxation states ?
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More broadly though to anyone -- what would you be doing practicing a martial art if you don't think seriously about death and killing? Regardless of your actual premises or conclusions. |
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If this cardiac synthesis of oxytocin in situ is in humans as well (which cannot be very large in amount), but would be fast as it is a direct feed to the circulation -- and would kick start the oxytocin's positive feedback loop, the progressive effect on vessel walls would be FELT differentially -- and the source generally localized in the chest. I wonder if this sensation may be the reason for the worldwide tradition attributing the heart as the seat of emotion. This and other studies also show that the effect of injected oxytocin is more pronounced in cerebral ventricular injection showing that there is a strong CNS component to initiating its expression and thus likely more allied with parasympathetic processes. Meditaition-wise-- I think the religious experience MRI studies have shown that strong meditation techniques break down some self/non-self perceptual barriers. That would seem to broaden the scope of presumptive "loved ones" -- those identified with oneself, rather than as Other. That implicates the presumed biological role of oxytocin in protecting close kin. The Buddhist experience of profound compassion and Christian estatics ( lit. ("standing outside" i.e -- of oneself) love certainly seem to fit as training modes for related things, less martially applicable, but yes even so. |
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I "seriously" cannot recall the last time I thought about it while I was on the mat. Sounds like another thread topic to me. :) William Hazen |
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I think you also do not see the value in Hillman's Jungian mythological approach in helping to grasp Ueshiba's own mythological approach. To me that is immensely helpful and informative -- especially the "Hymn to Ares" -- in which the God of War is appealed to CONTROL the forces of war in human hearts and societies. That is very close to Ueshiba's way of thinking, I believe. I recently saw some of the complexity of this point put much better in a quote I came across: "A desire to commit violence is not the same thing as a desire to commit evil." I am not Jewish, but the Chabad folks have excellent theological insights to similar effect on Jacob and Esau and good and evil, and the role of violence in goodness and that speak to some of the same issues: |
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"Martial" arts like wrestling and (modern) judo have rules to avoid serious wounding or death because the possibility is real and the physical doing of harm ("acceptable" harm limited to destroying stability or freedom or movement) is intentional. But they are not really trying to come ever closer to the boundary of serious harm without going over. That makes them sports -- evolved from martial arts. |
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Heres a little movie metaphor which frames our discussion perfectly "Saving Private Ryan." And also the underrated but still excellent "When Trumpets Fade." Quote:
John Keegan's books are a much better fact based gauge on how men act in war and he was never shot at in anger nor did he have to explain why he felt qualified to write about the subject matter. Keep in mind I am not trying to win an argument here... I am just stating my opinion. I appreciate your sharing of what the different Hormonal Responses are under duress. :) William Hazen B 2/75 |
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William Hazen |
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I like Keegan -- particularly "Mask of Command." I am fond of Victor Hanson as well... Tolkien obviously (on fighting "the long defeat"), not to mention S.M. Stirling -- the latter two , not history of course -- but strong on the mythic mode in modern terms of stories about war itself as a human endeavour vice simply stage dressing for other drama or storytelling. |
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Pablo |
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Again If the desire to do harm to others is so easy to express... Why do modern armies spend so much time trying to get soldiers to translate it into "homicidal action "? William Hazen |
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