Controlling Violence Without Harm [was: Using Daito Ryu's Aiki Without Harm]
Quote:
My more serious question concerns the extent to which you mean 'without causing harm'. I understand what you mean as a somewhat rhetorical expression -- the more so if the emphasis is on the 'potential'. I probably agree that the methods you use have 'greater potential' for that outcome than many highly technique-oriented approaches. That having been said, I don't actually know what you do. What I wanted to know is: do you, personally, feel that you can take 'control over other humans violent actions without causing harm'? I can accomplish this with my two-year-old, as long as he is not being *too* violent (so far so good), but I wouldn't nearly trust myself to do so with a trained adult. If you *can* do that, then that is very impressive. If you just hold it up as an ideal, I understand that too. Many people hold it up as an ideal, so I am just trying to understand the extent to which you are saying you can actually accomplish it. My general feeling from much of what you have written is that you are saying you can. Please accept my apology if I have misunderstood. Is that what you were proposing we bet about? Regards, Chhi'mèd |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
I can field this as I already posted this exact topic on a different thread in the past. It is my impression after having worked with him that one trained in that way can much more realisticaly take control of another adult as if they were a 2 year old (because the power differential is about the same).
I also find that Dan is working on is how to deal with other people similarly trained. That makes him farily unique in the scope of things. Rob |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Going back to my real question: you say (and I believe you completely) that Dan is 'working on' how to do this. Dan is 'willing to bet . . . which methods offer the greater potential'. So my question was whether he can actually demonstrate that his methods can accomplish what he says they can -- and with such clear superiority over all other methods. It's not that I disagree with the general thrust of Dan's points. I don't. But he did throw down a challenge, so I just want to understand what he is actually claiming. For example, I don't doubt that Dan can beat the crap out of me -- but I'm not sure he can do it without hurting me. It's not something I really want to test though, if you see what I mean. Hell, if I could win bets just by getting beat up, I wouldn't need a day job. Chhi'mèd |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Well, first I have a 4 year old who might swing wild sometimes and I've picked him up and calmed him down without hurting him.
I can say that I've had my body completely taken over by what Dan was doing - so that starts to make the impression. But I was skeptical myself about how well that would work on a well trained martial artists beyond myself. So, I brought the strongest and best one I knew with me one of the visits - who I saw completely dominated. (all in good fun - but the power differential was plainly obvious to all). That friend continues to come back like I do to learn. I've been martial arts long enough to know who is good and who sucks. It literally occured to me on my own that someone who developed such skills would - in general - command a power differential over most people that would be similar to what I have over my own child where I can stop him from hurting me and not hurt him in the process. Of course I am not Dan. And I have not been authorized to speak for him. However the premise of the thread is for people who have trained with him to provide their feedback and give their impressions. Dan repeatedly wrote things like "ask them". Since he obviously reads this thread, I would assume he will certainly chime in if I overstate something so I'm not feeling like I'm taking some big risk here. My experience(s) with Dan left me with the impression that one who is engaging with Dan will get fairly dominated fairly quickly - and the power differential would be similar to that between an adult and a child. And I posted that myself in a different thread, so I felt it appropriate to respond to your question about that exact idea. I'm 100% certain that there are SOME people out there well trained in external martial arts that could have a much closer fight with Dan say like 70% to Dan and 30% to them. (The friend I brought maybe being more in that category.) Fine, no one is claiming indestructable and undefeatable. Dan often writes that he is still just beginning to learn this stuff himself. Regarding "fairly unique". Well I dish out citations from the sematic police myself, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Dan teaches anti-aiki. As far as I know, that is his term, and his study. Which is unique. However, it would be plausable that this kind of aspect is done to some degree by some of the rare others who also work these skills. So I qualified unique. There are levels of infinity in math, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to say "fairly unique". Call it poetic license. Rob |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Rob, thanks for the reply.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To put it even more plainly, Dan has drawn a distinction between AIkido(™) and Aiki...do (I think I got all that right.) It seems like Dan's claim is one that belongs more to the Aikido(™) category -- even if Aiki...do facilitates the general skill. I would think Aiki...do would take a broader view -- one that allowed the possibility of giving someone a 'broken everything'. That's why I highlighted Dan's post originally. I *appreciated* that he was including it in his rant about Aiki...do. For him to turn around and offer to school me in 'without harm' -- for appreciating the other side of the coin -- just seemed incongruous. I think they *are* two sides of the same coin, and I would probably be willing to bet that coin if I could figure out *what the proposed bet might be*. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In any case, your 'semantic violation' is an entirely forgivable mistake of speech -- basically a typo; but it still demonstrates exactly the mistake in question. That wouldn't matter if the *actual meaning of unique* was not largely what is at stake in this discussion. Quote:
Chhi'mèd |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Hi Rob
To stick to the idea of the thread and to answer Chhi'mèd more directly: How exactly do you see the dominate force affecting the opponent? How would you see a power differential as being the studd of aiki? Some may wonder and equate it with the effect of using muscle or MMA skills, sicne their predominate repsonse may be to blend and move out of the way. Do you suppost that if I attacked you you could blend and take me or control me? How would that be different then what you do now? How is this control of forces beffiting of aiki? Say if you throw a punch or try to grab me?. Your friend was experienced in tuning MMAers-including one who appeared on the UFC, how did you perceive aiki...do affecting his movement when he tried to enter for a throw? Have you formed any opinions of your own about how aiki...do can truly transform your own Aikido™ and make it very potent as a martial art? Really this is open to Mark, Ron, Chris anyone who has gone to train with various people and may have thoughts on how this would effect their Aikido™-hopefully both in attack ro defense. How do you see it as making a change in connection values-for you? |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
I have started a separate thread on structure and dynamics for those that care: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...336#post210336 And for those that don't :D http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1 |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Chhi'mèd
Are we really interested in stretching and turning every phrase and word to unsreasonable and ridiculous lengths? No I don't make people lift up pencils and do automatic writing and make me coffee. Feeling like your movements are being totally controlled when attacking someone is well within hundreds of defintiions of high level aiki. If you are unaware of it-well...that pretty much speaks for itself doesn't it. If you are aware and have felt it, then knock it off and just talk plainly. Are you doubting that the same level of control can happen under more intense attacks? What? Can you state your questions to me in more simple and direct terms please?;) |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To be clear, I applaud the ideal, and I respect your acknowledgment of the pragmatics as well. Since you didn't know what position I was representing when you made your statement, I made the logical assumption that you felt your position could hold up against mine *without* knowing it. That implies a very strong claim. You would not be the first person in history to make such claims (or have them made for you) so I was genuinely interested in knowing if you *are* making it. I'm trying to ask this pointed question with as much humor and friendliness as possible. Quote:
Chhi'mèd |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
-I got it, but i'm going to be gone all day. I'll try to answer tomm. My position such as it is -has held up and been tested in many different venues. Exerience is a bitch to deal with on both sides; to carry its lessons and to refute them.
Happy independance day to everyone! And may I be the first to say "Thank you" to Dennis, William, Kevin, Mike Sigman, and also Kit and any others I missed- for all that you did or do to keep us independant. |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Quote:
-ck |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
Chhi'mèd,
I tried to answer that post after waking up at like 3 am for no good reason. I have no problems with the percision you would like to hold me to. But since you seemed to guess right about my intentions and restate them better it seems I was fairly successfull in communicating in my blurry-eyed state. You are of course right that I said aikido folks who worked with Dan and it was for aikido folks who worked with Dan, Mike, Aukuzawa, Rob J, and any other fast track folks. But that didn't really seem to confuse you much. This is just silly one-up-manship which you're welcome to have. I can't argue against Erick Mead even if I were right. He's too careful and I am not willing to put in the time on such things. I'm happy to just take some correction - if it is really helping clear up confusion - and keep moving forward. The secretary offer was not meant to imply PRESS SECRETARY. :) Just willing to organize things if requested. As far as being completely taken over. Well, I've been completely taken over by a large wave - and it couldn't make me pick up an object on a table next to me either. I just mean that I didn't get to chose what actions I took next - at all! My body went in some bizzare direction and my mind tried to catch up to what was happening. As far as how well trained I am. Well, it's always a matter of perspective. My body can take a hell of a lot of aiki power into it and take decent ukemi from most people but I could doubtfully succeed in a fight in the UFC very well. So I brought a friend. :) I was thinking about the power differential between you and a horse. While the horse has more power - I don't think that the horse has trained to take power away from you as you try to manipuate it. So I'm not saying Dan is stronger than a horse. I'm saying he is strong and makes you weaker than you would normally be against someone not trained like that. And given that, his approach is much more likely to produce the results of being able to subdue a violent aggressor while doing no harm than any other approaches I have encountered thus far in my constantly looking for such things for all of my adult life. So while I'm not Dan, I think I have a decent level of understanding which can probably add value to the discussion and answer some questions a bit. This being an online forum, and a topic I'm interested in, I hope you don't mind if I continue to dare to respond. :) I'll try to get back to Dan's questions, I have some plans today - that involve a 4 year old and a playground! Special thanks to all Military and LEO from me as well! Rob PS. a funny story about one-up-manship. I was in a car stopped in traffic at a light. My wife had her feet up on the dash (she was feeling very sick) and her seat was reclined. The guy next to me, beeps his horn. I roll down the window, and he goes into a long explanation about how dangerous it is for her to be doing that because of the air bag. I thanked him, my wife didn't change position one bit. And I simply remaked to my wife and our friend Jen in my car - "I notice there are no females in that car." :) |
Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?
First it should be noted that the title of this spin off thread (Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm) would make a reasonable definition for "aikido".
Quote:
However, I'm sure some people attack such that they protect both more kamikazi types as well as have pretty good structure as well as have fantastic internal/external fighting skills. My assumption is that this situation would probably wind up trading blows. The thing to note is that aiki blows are pretty much fight-enders. There simply cannot be too many people who can take several of those. In 10 years, will Dan be able to even handle that kind of attack and do no harm? Not sure, but I'll say that approach has the best chance I've seen so far. (The approach I HAD been going for was to develop even better keep away skills so that by the time contact was ever made I would have some tactical advantage from them over-reaching themselves on top of my having developed superior aiki power from my aikido-proper training. Now I see that I can focus on the aiki a lot more and learn to do no harm from this paridigm.) These skills are not the same as the typical MMA skills (although I have great respect for them). I would say my opinion at present is that: MMA with aiki power - turned into a force of doing least harm SHOULD BE the physical aspect of aikido that powers misogi training as well as provides proper context for the spiritual studies of aikido if you ask me. If you don't agree, that's fine, but that's where I plan to take it myself. (Ha and when I do, I can post about it and it will not belong in non-aikido martial traditions.) Quote:
Compared to the average joe my internal power and my finesse to hide my weaknesses were generally more than enough to deal with people from all sorts of other martial arts fairly well. Against people who do not have well developed internal power/aiki - I can move, blend, and control lots of people inside and out of aikido. I was just on my slow aproach to attempting to re-invent what you've already been doing for 12-14 years when I met you and happily realized I had a chance of getting much further than I had dreamed possible. Quote:
Rob |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
A picture of Dan training me:
He's the muppet... :) Ok seriously, it is a bit what it "feels" like. Rob |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Rob, no hard feelings from my side. Conversations take funny turns, so let's just focus on whatever meat might be in here and forget about the banter for the moment. Now that the thread has moved we can probably discuss more technical details if we want to, so even though I know it miffs you, it's probably better, right?
Anyhow, it looks like Dan's post to which you're replying got lost in the thread split. I'll wait and see if it shows up, since I can't really follow the conversation without it. Chhi'mèd |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Never mind. I see the post now, sorry about that. I'll still just wait for Dan's direct reply.
Chhi'mèd |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
No hard feeling at all. My previous post wasn't exactly serious. :)
|
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Rob, the image doesn't show up for me, so I just assumed it was a formal portrait.
|
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Darn, it was luke skywalker upside down in a 1 handed handstand with yoda sitting on his foot. Oh well, I never tried to link to an image here too bad.
The funny thing is that I do end up having to hold strange postures, and focus my mental intention. I just don't make rocks fly around... Maybe that will be next. :) Rob |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Hi Dan, I'm just writing in to this thread again in case you hadn't realized it has been moved. I know it confused me. Anyhow, if you happen to see this post -- please let me know if you need me to clarify my questions. I'm sure I will be able to figure out a way to put them very directly if we go back and forth a few times to refine it.
Regards, Chhi'mèd |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Without "Harm" is a manner of intention not just technique or method.... I would say dozens of times a day all over the US Police Officers draw their service weapon and point it at a suspect who may mean them harm and.... In over 98% (or higher) of these incidents no harm is committed in the act of "resolving" the conflict...
Knowing Aiki or expressing it is one thing... Your intentions are something else. In Aikido I would like to think we train ourselves to commit a minimal amount of "harm" by polishing our intentions... As Shoji Nishio put it.... "People who practice Aikido should be recognized as the best artists in the world. It's easy to create something good with good materials, however, we perform a martial art that is designed to destroy and kill people, which, is something people dislike. With these poor materials, we cultivate a society of friendship and build peaceful minds that people desire. Every Aikido technique has that mind/heart" So while all this talk of great skill is wonderful all I am interested in is what kind of man or woman it makes you into... That is Budo... and I think Fred Little said much the same thing in referring to Terry Dobson's last few classes at Bond Street before he died on a similar thread a few days back. William Hazen |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Quote:
Chhi'mèd |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Quote:
can provide "success without harm." Only a man bent on suicide would continue attacking someone who has "technical mastery" over him. To me it's all about intention since the technical aspect of Budo as expressed in Daito-Ryu is a moot point. William Hazen |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
It's not the skill sets that are special. Aikido has nothing that I have not seen in any other martial art as far as a skill set that is unique or sets it apart from stopping harm. IMO, there is nothing special in aikido in that respect. Nothing.
I agree with WIlliam Hazen, guns, nukes, whatever are the same as anything we learn in aikido. So, what is it that sets it apart? It has more to do with the holistic approach to budo than anything else. Budo is the answer. That should not be an excuse for us to not learn good martial skills. Quite the contrary, the study of budo done properly COMPELLS us to learn martial skills correctly. To look at the lethality correctly, to embrace it. I think if you start looking at aiki from that perspective it really changes things. It did for me. Krav Maga, BJJ, Judo, Aikido, or Internal Skills training...it all starts to be apart of aikido waza once you realize it ain't about the skills, but about the holistic study of budo. AIkido provides us a structure in order to study budo. A wonderful one! It does require us, I think to LET GO, of the notion of aikido as a set of skills though. William is dead on. |
Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm
Quote:
Chhi'mèd |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:29 PM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.