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-   -   can we just get along (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9582)

justinmaceachern 01-10-2006 08:54 AM

can we just get along
 
Hi evry one, how are you. Look i am tired of trying to prove the practicalities btween arts. when people get on here and say that their art is better then the other, you know what that tells me?
They have not yet got the point. Martial arts is like a religion, its what ever is best for you. For instance; if I was in a real fight i probably wouldnt think of what to do, or what art is best to suit my situation, I just do what I know. Bruce Lee knew tons of techniques that could make you fall but when confronted, if he didnt know what you had he would stick to the same 4 or 5 moves. I respect any and all forms of martial arts and will not put any down, and realy offends me to see these yahoos putting an art that i feel deep compassion for. This site is for conversing not starting fights.
Again thanks for your time.
With much pleasure
Justin
MacEachern
3rd kyu

happysod 01-10-2006 09:35 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Martial arts is like a religion,
agreed and the heretics must be burned at the stake!
Quote:

This site is for conversing not starting fights
Also agreed, which is why I'm going to use your thread to add a rant of my own....

Often, I see threads or posters claiming that subject x or y should be out of bounds on the grounds of good taste, honour etc. etc.

Now, if the dialog in question is merely a serious of personal attacks between posters, it should be stopped. If it is not about aikido or even martial arts, it can be moved. However, if it an essentially open discussion based on the posts (rather than the personalities involved) why oh why does someone feel they can censure it by invoking Budo/respect (or whatever).

Justin, I appreciate your sentiments, but I fail to appreciate your request for censorship.

(rant over, deep breaths ensue)

bkedelen 01-10-2006 10:04 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Ian, I completely agree. This is an open forum, the ettiquette of which may not be completely obvious to a noob, and about something worth lifetimes of study in subtle and hard to discuss areas. If we do not choose to assume that almost everyone (excluding ad hominim attackers) is here to further their own and each other's understanding, then we may miss out on an important vein of discussion, or just reduce the forum to a cyclical re-discussion of "acceptable" topics. I am not always a fan of the Chinese martial artists who do not even study Aikido getting on here and discussing "ki power" as if they are totally "in" on what we do in Aikido, or the flower children getting on here and talking about how if only police officers and soldiers knew Aikido the world would be without violence, but I understand that this is a community of substance and an effective locale for the discussion of ALL matters pertaining to Aikido study. Others may loathe my topics of interest, but they are always welcome to view a different thread or close their browser window. I think it is remarkable how civil this forum is considering that it is not invitation-only, and there is no heavy-handed moderation regarding subject matter. I too regect the notion of such censorship (self imposed or otherwise) on these forums.

justinmaceachern 01-10-2006 10:06 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
I want to thank you Ian for taking the time to read my post. And after concideration i agree with you, it is not up to us to censor but to overcome adversity. but do you also agree that we need to stick to gether as people in unity and not create seprates. This is what happens when these people come on line and disrupt people's way of thinking. What got me to this point is the fact that some guy private messaged me saying that ushieba osensei wa wrong in his teachings. I dont think that any one enough experience t make that judgment.
Thanks and have a good day

happysod 01-10-2006 10:35 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

This is what happens when these people come on line and disrupt people's way of thinking.
I'd actually consider this a positive contribution. I can think of nothing worse than never challenging my own perceptions, if it takes someone else to do it for me, that's good.
Quote:

What got me to this point is the fact that some guy private messaged me saying that ushieba osensei wa wrong in his teachings. I dont think that any one enough experience t make that judgment.
It's at this point it's up to you to argue for your viewpoint. If you can't argue effectively for your views, you're resorting to relying on faith and dogma rather than reason.

As for no-one having the experience to judge, that's often used as another form of self-censorship. We're human, everyone judges all the time, all you can actually do is at least attempt to make your judgments based on some actual knowledge of the subject rather than just off the cuff - even then we can all make mistakes.

justinmaceachern 01-10-2006 11:56 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
I guess what i am trying to say is, one shouldnt short another for any reason. Ian I like your views and opinions, and from now on i will think very carefully on how to express my opinions from now on. thank you.

Adam Alexander 01-10-2006 12:05 PM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Ian Hurst wrote:
It's at this point it's up to you to argue for your viewpoint. If you can't argue effectively for your views, you're resorting to relying on faith and dogma rather than reason.

Inability to coherently express the rationale for your beliefs isn't evidence of a lack of proof.

My experience of arguing, for example, over the efficacy of Aikido hasn't yeilded me one positive benefit except to demonstrate what a total waste of time it is to argue.

justinmaceachern 01-10-2006 12:45 PM

Re: can we just get along
 
Thank you jean. I belive man was givin the gift of martail arts to show the world, not shelter. Arguments on wich is the better art have been goin on since the beginning of martailarts. It shouldnt be a matter of whats better rather what is confortable to you the individual. I want to thank everyone who took time out of their day to talk with me. It is greatly apreciated. And i am always open to discuss any thing.
So have a good day everyone as for me i have to go for now but will be back later.
Much thanks
Justin

James Smithe 01-10-2006 01:51 PM

Re: can we just get along
 
Your right it's not the martial art it's the individual blah blah blah the earth is flat, tai chi teaches you how to fight. You forgot the martial part of the art? I'll use tai chi as an example Tai Chi used to teach you how to fight now they turned it into some type of dance. If it doesn't teach you how to fight it's just a dance. How can you respect that? I'll use what Ueshiba said "kicking is crazy," hmm what would that apply to today. Let's see Karate and especially Tae kwon Tae kwon do. This guy in my class was practicing Tae Kwon Do and my teacher said "that crap will never work on me."

Mark Freeman 01-10-2006 03:39 PM

Re: can we just get along
 
Hi guys, interesting thread!

I sometimes read threads on this site and wonder if some of the practitioners here practice the "Art of Peace" in the dojo and put on boxing gloves when they get to the keyboard. Having said that, I am going to directly disagree with a quote in Justin's original posting:
Quote:

Martial arts is like a religion,
Martial Arts are a practice, which, whilst they follow their own path/way, the practitioner can follow without faith, or passed down belief. Skill and understanding are gained through persistent trying out, testing, perfecting timing, balance, calmness of mind to name but a few. A true martial artist will not be bound by dogma, and would not burn a heretic at the stake for not holding the same views. If someone is disrespectful of my art or the founder of my art, I do not cry blasphemy, and demand that they treat me with respect. I just accept that they do not 'know' what I know. Martial Artists can be Athiest, Agnostic or a believer in any number of the gods on offer. A religion does not offer that freedom.
Phew, got that off my chest!
Keep up the good work chaps :)

Jorx 01-10-2006 10:37 PM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Justin MacEachern wrote:
Martial arts is like a religion, its what ever is best for you.

Justin - this is where you are a bit off. Generally one might say that yes - that the thing which MA you choose it's like choosing favourite colour, religion, food, weather to travel on foot or by car or other value-dependant thing. We cannot objectively know much about "best" and "you" without concretisizing the terms first

HOWEVER things change when we start setting physical goals in objective physical reality. Because that's where it is possible to objectively measure change (or at least we can try:).

Therefore just as one can say that driving cars is generally better than moving on foot for people who like to travel faster and for longer distances and do not care much about pollution we can also say that sport MA systems with minimal restrictions trained in alive enviroment are generally better for people who's goal is to learn fast practically applicable skills of physical combat.

So sometimes to me (I'm not saying this is the case in this topic) seems that the "martial arts are all equal and lead to same mountaintop and for everyone his own thing and blabla" is just a last resort of excuse to NOT face the fact that one has has spent MANY hours practicing something hoping to reach some goals that COULD HAVE been reached faster and more efficiently. Protecting the ego y'know...

happysod 01-11-2006 02:42 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Inability to coherently express the rationale for your beliefs isn't evidence of a lack of proof.
Point of order sir!

Firstly I never said coherently, I said effectively. I've known one or two people who are virtually inarticulate, but they have still managed to impart their views far better than I could. Admittedly, they'd be less able to share in a internet forum, but your point seemed more generic than the thread.

Secondly, did I ever mention proof or evidence? Arguments across the internet often invalidate the use of definitive proof. Finally, while I agree the truth may be "out there", the onus is on you to impart that information, not on your internet collaborator to either find it for themselves or believe your assertions of truth. Sadly, when using type to converse, coherence is a key factor, one which I'm often woefully poor at.

To get back to the original thread topic - polite discourse good, censorship bad, speeling optional.

justinmaceachern 01-11-2006 05:12 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
This statement is for james when he said that he cant respect tai chi because they took the fighting aspect out of it. Thats getting back to my earlier thread about just doing one aspec of the art. but you have to remember there are different types of chi, the one that
"looks like a dance" is a healing art for your body and mind. And there are still schools that teach the original style. As for taekwan do and it "not working", thats what brings us back to the argument of wich art is better. And I realy dont beleive that, thats what it was meant for. a lot of times people in martail arts tend to be bios, and that is why i study the three arts of mine to get a better understanding of peace and unity amoung practitioners of martail arts.always a pleasure talking with you guys and i hope your studies go well

DaveS 01-11-2006 05:26 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

James Smith wrote:
I'll use tai chi as an example Tai Chi used to teach you how to fight now they turned it into some type of dance. If it doesn't teach you how to fight it's just a dance. How can you respect that?

Please try to explain that to Dan Docherty on the mat.

crbateman 01-11-2006 06:37 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Even an argument can be beneficial, if it makes people think. As long as participants can maintain decency and show respect for one another, there is no reason to impose further restrictions. Fora such as these are where ideas and experiences may be exchanged. Sometimes the result is that points-of-view are altered, sometimes not. But there is always an opportunity to learn and grow. Those who use the forums as an outlet for their belligerence soon get the deaf ear, and look elsewhere. So speak your mind, respect others' right to do the same, and don't go fishing for trolls...

batemanb 01-11-2006 06:43 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

James Smith wrote:
I'll use tai chi as an example Tai Chi used to teach you how to fight now they turned it into some type of dance. If it doesn't teach you how to fight it's just a dance. How can you respect that?

I used to study Tai Chi with a chinese chap fron Hong Kong, he started off teaching us the "dance". Once he felt we were accomplished enough, he moved on to teaching the practical application. There is no difference between the two.

When I started AIkido, my then sensei started off teaching us the "dance". Once we become more accomplished, we moved on to more practical applications. There is no difference between the two.

The only difference one may percieve is in the mindset of the individual.

rgds

Bryan

happysod 01-11-2006 07:27 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

he moved on to teaching the practical application. There is no difference between the two.
please tell me you speeded things up a bit...

sorry, couldn't resist (bad pedant, bad)

justinmaceachern 01-11-2006 08:15 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
I dont understand why you guys insist on calling cerain aspecs of martailarts a " dance". if you want to dance join capoeai.
Have a good day.

batemanb 01-11-2006 08:18 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Justin MacEachern wrote:
I dont understand why you guys insist on calling cerain aspecs of martailarts a " dance". if you want to dance join capoeai.
Have a good day.


But Justin mate, Aikido IS the "dance" of the gods.

6th Kyu For Life 01-11-2006 08:43 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Let me make two comments:

First, in order to understand Aikido, and Aikido's place in the Martial Arts, we have to look at the "bigger picture." Aikido is not an island, it is very much connected, and in many ways overlapping other martial arts. So, Justin, you're absolutely right, we can't just say "Aikido is the best." I think it's the best, but that's coming from someone who's practiced only Aikido for only two years. I have two friends that used to do Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that always argue with me that BJJ is not only better than Aikido, but better than all martial arts. So anyone who says such things is a little suspect in their integrity. Does that necessarily mean that they're wrong, or do they just have a different opinion?

The truth is, if you were to make any such assesment, you'd have to step away from Aikido to become the "dispassionate observer," someone who has no stock in whether or not Aikido is better or worse. This is how things like religion are studied in college. You don't go to a course on Christianity expecting to be taught about Christianity the same way you would be at a church. However, in the world of martial arts, all we have are "churches," places where there is a need to be "better than the other ones."

So what's the solution? Well, basically you're right, there's no way to prove, either through martial confrontation, debate, or academic study that any martial is any better than any other one. But, if you wanted to really understand Aikido, you'd have to look to understand other martial arts as well. These forums may be the beginning of just that.

Second,
Quote:

Martial arts is like a religion,
Since I am studying religion, I agree with you. Aikido is like religion, but it isn't exactly religion. It's weird. I wrote a post about this a couple of weeks ago in this thread, if anyone is interested: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...0&page=19&pp=2

Peace,
Tom Newhall

justinmaceachern 01-11-2006 08:50 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
hey tom justin here. i agree with you 100 percent. you see i also study gracie jujitsu and itf style of taekwondo. i guess what i am trying to do is dtermin which is most confortable to me. and i dont htink that there is just one domnant art. I believe it all cyrcles in together.
Got to go I have self defense class to instruct.

p00kiethebear 01-11-2006 09:12 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

can we just get along
No.

Jorx 01-11-2006 02:38 PM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Justin MacEachern wrote:
I dont understand why you guys insist on calling cerain aspecs of martailarts a " dance". if you want to dance join capoeai.
Have a good day.

If I want a dance group then I join a dance group. Sexier, socially more beneficial AND more beautiful women:)

Quote:

Tom Newhall wrote:
Well, basically you're right, there's no way to prove, either through martial confrontation, debate, or academic study that any martial is any better than any other one.

Didn't any of you guys read my previous post? You disagree so much that you ignore it?

IT IS and ONE CAN once we set goals that are binded with objective physical reality.

Luc X Saroufim 01-12-2006 07:36 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Jorgen Matsi wrote:

So sometimes to me (I'm not saying this is the case in this topic) seems that the "martial arts are all equal and lead to same mountaintop and for everyone his own thing and blabla" is just a last resort of excuse to NOT face the fact that one has has spent MANY hours practicing something hoping to reach some goals that COULD HAVE been reached faster and more efficiently. Protecting the ego y'know...

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Although you have a valid point, the common denominator in all martial arts deals with the path, not the destination.

Martial arts teaches you discipline, self respect, respect for others, humility, etc. It goes far beyond your physical goals. "Faster and more efficiently" doesn't apply here, especially when patience is such a virtue.

This is a good topic of conversation.

happysod 01-12-2006 07:52 AM

Re: can we just get along
 
Quote:

Martial arts teaches you discipline, self respect, respect for others, humility
I'll match your respectfully disagree and raise you possibly maybe. MA can teach you discipline, self-respect etc. but thats a function of both the way it is taught to you and your own motivations for taking it in the first place. MA are essentially a tool designed to kill/maim or occasionally chafe and wet willie your opponent, how you use that tool within the framework of your own personal development differs greatly across individuals.

I'd actually go as far as to say that there's nothing intrinsic to ma which aids in building character. Even on this august site we see threads arguing between the "pre - <choose time frame to suit style>" martial aspect of aikido and the more "spiritually endowed". Many of the great ma teachers have espoused ideas along the lines you mention (even if they didn't always follow them themselves), others have been more than happy to be just pleasantly deadly.


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