Should obese aikidoka do break falls?
I recently was diagnosed with slight wear on two of my cervical vertebrae.
My only way to account for this damage has been 17 years of aikido, as I have not suffered any other traumatic insults to my neck. Most of the time I have practiced aikido I have been technically obese (~33% body fat), putting me at about 246#. Coupled with my height, 6'1", I have to wonder if I was at particular risk for injury. None of my fellow aikidoka who have practiced as much have reported any issues. (Nota bene: none of them are obese.) We have practiced on standard 2" blue mats, with no other shock absorbing elements. And so I am bringing this issue to the table: Ought obese students be allowed to practice given the elevated risk of serious injury? I think this ought to be considered, especially in regards to break falls. |
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My weight however is on me... If I don't get lean soon then my Aikido "career" WILL be cut short...That is just the laws of physics on the human body my friend. :) William Hazen |
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I think we need to be carefu lwith the term obese.
I've been technically obese for many years (BMI 35) but with a body fat of between 26-28% (still high but not disasterous) - all of my injuries came when I was young, lean and fit. I still take ukeme after 40 years training and this has no effect on my body other than to loosen up stiff joints. Recently I also looked at the factors involved in injury in Aikido for a masters project and found the only correlation was number of training sessions per week (more than 4 significantly increases the risk) So I would say "obese" aikidoka have two chooses - develop better ukeme or get leaner |
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OK skinny guy talking but my heaviest student weighed a whopping 165 Kg at one point and a lot of thought and consultation went into what he could and could not do.
It is a simple fact of Aikido practice that most fitness benefit is actually gained through ukemi - not so much in going down but getting back up. Large mass and speed do not mix - no matter how thick the tatami is. Also with bulk there is a certain lack of agility - safe forward roles were beyond him. We insisted that if ukemi was called for he needed to go down. The forward role could be substituted for a turn and back breakfall. I left it to the student to decide how to lessen the impact here but he definitely got his workout in getting back up. If physically there is something you can not do in Aikido (not just because of obesity) it is important that you try and find a way to compensate rather than just avoid, |
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I wouldn't think the cervical vertebrae would take extreme strain in breakfalls. In rolls, perhaps, if the belly prevents the person from actually making a nice round form - the back is straight, the neck overcompensates by bending more. Perhaps. |
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Alex |
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Well... I'm 5' 7" and I outweigh you. Quite honestly I like breakfalls and have not found them to be particularly hard on my body. We don't take a lot of them where I train but I probably take them more often than other members of the dojo.
The only times I have experienced any real insult to my neck have been when I took a bad back roll. I don't think I am any more at risk for an injury than anyone else other than needing to be careful of my knees which were damaged in much younger and thinner years. |
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Personally, I don't think weight is the main concern with breakfalls - IMO, they can be bad for you at any weight and should be avoided when possible. Granted, I think they need to be learned for protection when needed in certain situations - but the constant hard practice of them will cause problems later in life; especially for those folks that like to throw themselves harder than what nage puts into the throw - I am sure you all have seen it at seminars; those in their 20s and 30s slamming themselves into the mat as hard as they can - 10 to 15 years later, they will be paying the price for that.
Greg |
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Donovan Waite is great but I am confused by the idea of him not doing breakfalls. He does, and teaches, masses of them constantly. He does them well in such a way that they are as safe as possible, and teaches others to do them well, but that's the _opposite_ of not doing breakfalls...
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I've seen him a couple of times over here and enjoyed his classes. I believe he is still based on the US East Coast. I recommend his ukemi DVD(s). Alex |
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Dear All,
On the question of breakfalls check out the methodology of Chiba Sensei in respect taking ukemi. These start off with body conditioning exercises then these exercises are translated into breakfalling.Cheers, Joe. |
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"Ought any students be allowed to perform breakfalls for 17 years on standard 2" blue mats, with no other shock absorbing elements?" |
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Most of us who live long enough will develop osteoarthritis aka degenerative joint disease. Some will have it some up first, or almost entirely, in thumbs, some in knees, some neck, some shoulder, etc - you get the idea. Some will have it show up in their 40s and some not be bothered into their 80s.
So I think if you have no other reason than "I've done aikido a long time" and "I have been overweight a long time" you may be barking up the wrong tree (or running down a blind alley) searching for a cause. It could easily and equally have been a long forgotten minor whiplash when you were a kid or a chronic posture issue accreting over decades or something we can't identify that set up those vertebrae as the initial spot for wear and tear. |
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But for course the pain in your hands could be something else. |
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A properly performed breakfall should have the 'slapping' hand taking 95% of the impact. If your body is taking a jarring impact, your hand is hitting the mat too late.
Good luck, hope this helps! |
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Training on a wooden floor in the past has taught me that slapping in ukemi is not something you should be in the habit of relying on... Alex |
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We practice breakfalls as a very tight, small roll, with the first thing hitting the ground/mat/floor being the palm of your slapping hand. For some reason I cannot put into words, this takes all the impact out of the fall. Your palm may sting a bit but it is as if your body is lowered to mat with little to no impact. It is quite amazing. Been doing it for 20+ years and have not been injured, even under some devastating technique (hope I did not just jinx myself). I also have several deshi in thier 50's whom use this ukemi. But don't take my word for it, try it out! |
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Where you diagnosed by a physician with Cervical Spondylosis? Cervical degeneration isn't associated with weight. It is associated with age primarily. Arthritis, genetics and jobs with lots of neck movement are also is a factor of CS, but not weight, I would think. The cervical spine doesn't carry the bulk weight of the body's mass, such as the rest of the spine. A damaged disk in the lumbar spine is more likely due to weight. The knees are what really carries the bulk of the body's weight and suffers most for it when a person is obese. Weight may not be a top culprit with CS. Heart attack diabetes, blood pressure, thoracic and lumbar spine problems, joint problems, are but a few more serious things to worry about at 33% body fat . As far as Aikido goes it seems to me, neck movement and age would be the primary areas of concerns if it isn't genetic deterioration. It would be interesting to know the areas of degeneration of and wear patterns on the vertebra, assuming the disk is depleted to a degree. Is the wear at the anterior or posterior part of the vertebra. Or it is some what evenly worn, or is there just bi- lateral wear. Include the condition of the disks, and if there are bone spurs. To identify if circular rotation of the head is a cause, or the head's frequent repetition of the head moving back and forth. The results would to indicate if Aikido played a role in CS, or other factors, or combined. Warm -ups might be considered over ukemi as the cause. I use to do a neck warm ups by circling my head clock and counter clockwise and then rotating it side to side, and back and forth. Done 4 times a weak or more over the years could be mostly at fault for the wear and tear. I stopped that when I was told by my Chiropractor to do it another way that wasn't harmful. I have seen some people to stretch their neck pull down upon their head passing the natural flexion range of the neck. That isn't good on the neck disks when done habitually. I know in the medical profession they started the anti-obese movement, it has been turning into a craze where fat is to blame for everything that is taking it over board. It is then natural to think weight has something do with increasing risk of injury on and off the mat. OTOH, I would hate to make an assumption and be wrong for it when fat wasn't the culprit. Don't over-look other things, like genetics, and other activities that can be the cause. Obesity is an issue, agreed. It does limit your actives and abilities, and puts you at risk for injury. There is nothing better than getting the proper knowledge. You don that by talking throughly and working with a doctor/specialist in this condition. You eliminate your assumptions. Losing the extra weight is an important and good health practice. Being at 33% body fat is something of a health concern, it puts you at risk for other more serious health conditions than slightly worn neck vertebra, and the cause has to be considered it may not be taking falls. I wish you the best of health and longevity. Losing weight is a struggle, and takes effort and will power beyond assumptions. Once it is off, you will feel so much better, and less concerned about the risks of being over weight. |
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