Guests in the House
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I started aikido in 1973 at the New Haven Aikikai. The head instructor was Bob Barrett, and Terry Dobson and Harvey Koenigsberg were once-a-week instructors.
So here we are in 2009. I can claim a little of the credit -- not most, by any stretch of the imagination, but a little -- for reigniting an interest in internal training in aikido, suggesting that it does not have to have been merely the possession of the Magic Ueshiba. People are actually retrofitting aikido to truly be an internal martial art. Others are stepping forward and claiming that, in their faction at least, they have maintained at least some of O-sensei's actual training methods for internal power. Of those "retrofitting," some hearken to Daito-ryu, a fraught subject, because the public demos of most of the factions are stiff, muscular kata, showing little evidence of internal training. A few others appear to be "soft," but contingent on dive-bunny uke, that appear to be reacting in utterly unrealistic ways. (Is that enough caveats for the protective and the defensive?) Other people hearken to Chinese martial training methods, this, too, being a fraught subject. Some assert that by mixing Chinese internal training methods with aikido will result in a bastardized martial art, and others asserting that whatever the Chinese are doing, it isn't what "aiki" is. Of those claiming to have had "aiki" type training all along, some are members of closed organizations that state that they only present said skills among their initiated. Other folks, students of one or another aikido teacher, claim such abilities for their teacher, but not for themselves. As Heraclitus said several millennia ago, "War is the father of all things." But war is also hell. And a little bit of that hell occasionally seeps into AikiWeb. Let me say at this point that this piece is a result of some discussions Jun and I have recently had -- but everything here is my opinion, not necessarily Jun's. What is clear to me is that AikiWeb, Jun's creation, was intended to be an Aikido oriented website. But this leads to a number of questions:
Let me lead this next bit with two caveats -- First, I'm writing about what I find grating on this side of this issue. I deal with ad hominem attacks, bliss-bunnies who prefer pabulum to genuine thought, grandiose fantasists who have no idea of their (lack of) strength, hurt feelings when a faith-based, unfounded precept is questioned, and intellectualized incomprehensible tomes about things not experienced, but deducted from brain-power alone with a simple, wonderful tool -- THE IGNORE LIST. I can proudly state that my ignore list is in double digits now -- and I have the same affection for it that I do for my "spam blocker" in my email and "ad-blocker" for my internal. "La-la-la-la-lah. I can't hear you!" My second caveat? I'm deliberately going over the top in what follows, so please don't write to me, saying, "I didn't say that." Someone else did:
BUT -- how can AikiWeb function best as an aikido site, while including both the new/newly-made-available information regarding internal training, without the latter taking over too many threads -- so that we guests who are not aikidoka, as well as those who have radically changed their aikido practice due to their introduction of such training methods can fit in smoothly in this aikido house? Continuing the "wife, metaphor," my friend may have incredibly cogent reasons for continuing his marriage, despite her previous history with the Caltech slide-rule team, including a shortened hakama and duct tape and pancakes, as well as the mysterious Bengalese belly buster, which I believe I mentioned in another thread some time ago. Jun tried to manage things with a "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" section. This solved part of the problem, but not all. Truly, that is the best place to introduce a discussion on what people are doing in Indonesian silat or Persian zhoor khane, even if that includes information relating to that in aikido. But Daito-ryu is more than a "Non-aikido Martial Tradition." It's too close. And although internal strength discussions should not dominate every discussion, it should be a central question in aikido. You can't escape it! Honestly, were not many of you drawn to aikido because of Ueshiba Morihei? I was. Did not many of you see the film or photo of the jo trick, or some other manifestation of power and you wanted to be able to do the same? Ueshiba Morihei's power was the advertisement. How strange that we have been so satisfied so long, believing it is beyond our reach? So I would propose the addition of two sections.
The point is that those who are not interested in internal power discussions, those who truly are asking about aspects of aikido apart from internal training (as most do), those who find such discussion to be incomprehensible gibberish, and those who find themselves squeezed out as soon as the subject is introduced do not have drop out of the thread or even decide to drop out of the forum. Now, all too frequently, a few familiar posters post post after post, rehashing the same arguments with each other. This is due, in part, to the push and pull that naturally occurs in trying to steer a discussion in one direction or another, while it's going in two or more directions at the same time. It is my belief that introducing these two new sections will go a long way to allow discussion to proceed in a more collegial and informative way. Ellis Amdur is a licensed instructor (shihan) in two koryu: Araki-ryu Torite Kogusoku and Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginatajutsu. His martial arts career is approximately forty years -- in addition to koryu, he has trained in a number of other combative arts, including muay thai, judo, xingyi and aikido. |
Re: Guests in the House
Well-thought-out and well-presented proposals. Thanks. They make eminently good sense to me--although (obviously) it's up to everyone individually to take responsibility for the spirit as well as the content of their posts, in any forum.
By the way, I saw those pictures of the Cal-Tech Slide Rule Club. Absolutely shocking!! I'm glad you refrained from posting them . . . certainly not suitable for a family forum like this. :D |
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So Ellis,
How do you REALLY feel about the tenor, topics, etc... on the Aikiweb :D . Marc Abrams |
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Thanks Ellis...
I'll try to behave from now on! Best, Ron |
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These are very good suggestions, but I don’t have too much hope it will be realized successfully.
I remember in old good days when BJJ has been doing it first steps, there were a lot of fresh converts from aikido who came to some aikido forums to behave exactly like today’s converts to internal training. We can call their reaction overenthusiastic, or rude, depends of emotional filter. Today, when BJJ folks are more mature and don’t need to prove around they are ‘the best’ we can have interesting discussion with them. How many years it will take for the ‘internalists’ to be mature enough? I’d guess 10 years. So from experience I think next 10 years they still will hijack any discussion about aikido. They talk badly about aikido, but they still need aikido audience. Go figure. Fresh ‘internal’ convert is always trying to be more aiki then Takeda himself LOL |
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Ten years! God forbid. I think we can grow up faster than that.
Best, Ron |
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Excellent suggestions, Ellis.
With the work that Stan Pranin, Peter, you (and others) have done over the years, the history of aikido section could be a real treasure. Having a dedicated spot for aikido and internal training would also help smooth out the discussions, but my hope is that a specific sub-forum won't be necessary. A few years ago, aikido and cross-training was a huge debate. In some ways, the ongoing, multi-faceted internal strength conversation is a continuation of the cross-training debate. Basically, some people have over time have looked for something more out of their aikido training. The previous debates centered on aikido people not striking/attacking well, etc. Now we're not throwing well either. :) That's not to say that people weren't right about the cross-training issue. They're seemingly right about the aiki issue too. However, I'm either optimistic enough or naive enough to think that given a little more time people on this board will figure out how to address the issues without devolving into a rant about internal strength in every single topic. To put it another way, there are still a lot of folks who think that cross-training with karate or BJJ, or whatever is exceptionally valuable to one's aikido. There are plenty of others who think that aikido is all they need. But, there's no need for a separate "aikido and cross-training" sub-forum. Hopefully that will be true of aikido and internal strength. Regards, -Drew |
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another vote for the "History" and "Internal Training" forums.
:) |
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David |
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No votes from me. It is Jun's sandbox and I'll respect whatever decision he makes.
But great article on the underlying topics. I found myself getting pulled into one of those discussions and wish I could have just pointed to this column instead of repeatedly trying to clarify myself. The only end result was me walking away in disgust and avoiding the place for a while. I had to remind myself that ignore lists are your friend. |
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Osu Sensei,
Always a pleasure. Rei, Domo. |
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Thanks Ellis... I keep forgetting the ignore function. I sorta do it automatically anyway. The two new forums seem to be a good idea to me. I also really appreciate the information shared on AikiWeb that helps us broaden our views of history. It's important.
Best regards, |
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Bravo Ellis - pointed, refreshing, enlightening and entertaining, and yet with an appropriate reminder of etiquette.
So did Mark Twain do aikido?! |
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I recall the old BJJ taking over aikiweb craze. Aikido folks studying aiki getting treated like those folks is just so bizarre.
A couple years ago, I actually responded to some technique thread talking about kotegaeshi from a more internal stand point thinking - you know in a forum everyone could have a voice. And I was shocked that my post was moved to a place called "non-aikido whatever..." So I got annoyed and took about a year or so off from aikiweb. It's one side of the coin to be dominating every discussion about internals. But it's quite another to be told that what you do in your own AIKIDO dojo is now non-aikido because you want to do aikido more like O-sensei. :crazy: So, years go by and we finally had a thread in the general section about IT. I said everything I wanted to say. I tried to take it further about how to best put aiki back into aikido and didn't get too much traction. I don't think enough people are ready. That time will come, and it won't have much to do with _my_ maturity. I would love to have some of the forums that Ellis suggests. Otherwise, unless asked, I'll probably not post all that often about aiki unless I get interested in one of my hot buttons like:
Rob |
Re: Guests in the House
Harking back a few (very few) years, I can remember asking a number of Aikido experts about the ki skills in relation to the fact that at a minimum both Ueshiba and Tohei demonstrated those skills repeatedly as part of their Aikido. Ueshiba and Tohei never demonstrated MMA or Systema or other "arts that will help your Aikido improve". But for a limited number (as a start) of people to begin understanding how intrinsic these skills that Tohei and Ueshiba demonstrated are a part of Aikido is a pretty good start.
The problem is that (in my opinion) these skills are so intrinsic to Aikido that it's impossible (or absurd) to relegate them to "other" types of discussions. Ultimately, as more people become aware of the obviousness of the conclusions, I think the "internal" problem will go away. If the skills become understood in the full context of not only the abilities, but also the derivations and the breadth of the relationships in the cosmology and quasi-religious, then the "IT" will expand into the forums on 'spiritual', 'training', and so on. I.e., all we're watching is a work in progress, not a static situation. My 2 cents. Mike Sigman |
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Respect!
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Re: Guests in the House
Guest are welcomed and can make you realize some things that you have ignored. Guests should not abuse or overstay their welcome. They can always be asked to leave. How they behave determines if they are asked or allowed back.
Always treat guest nicely because you may be a guest in their house someday. We are all guests at Jun's website. David |
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Sublime.
Thank you very much. |
Re: Guests in the House
Hi folks,
Any other thoughts on Ellis's column? I want to encourage the discussion as I welcome everyone's thoughts on this matter, as the discussion may impact some future decisions I may make for these forums. Thanks, -- Jun |
Re: Guests in the House
I'm personally trying to heed Ellis's advice. Instead of commenting on a thread that already has "issues", taking a relevent post and using that as a spring board for a new thread. And leaving the other stuff behind, without even commenting on it. I think if we do that at the beginning of "those" threads, it will help the signal to noise ratio greatly, and allow everybody to enjoy the site and the discussions.
Best, Ron |
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I.e. 3 warnings = interdiction of writing for 1 month. 5 warnings = ban(no read, no write) for 3 months. It shouldn't be a lot of additional work for you. I know some version of software offers this functionality. |
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Well, there is the Marine Corps alternative. When any one of us gets out of line, Jun could make us all do 20 virtual push-ups.:D
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It seems to me that the problem is with argumentative posters. Some time ago Ellis criticized posters who felt obliged (or compulsive/obsessive) to have the last word. In fact, one of them justified his relentless arguments by asserting his duty to prevent the other poster from having the last word, because that would leave the rest of us with incorrect information.
I often feel that O Sensei was misquoted when he said there is no competition in aikido. What he really said was, “There is no competition in aikido; leave that for AikiWeb!” It’s not what you do that matters, it’s how you do it, and that goes for just about everything, including posting on AikiWeb. Perhaps certain posters could be limited to no more than three posts per thread. They could be put on “3X3 probation”: three posts for three months. It might force them to present their arguments more succinctly (or it might result in three posts that go on forever). Anyway, those are my thoughts on what I think is the subject of this thread. |
Re: Guests in the House
Jun,
The version of the V-Bulletin software used over at E-Budo has a system of Warnings and Infractions built into it. The scale of penalties is decided by the Administrator and used by the moderators. It is automatic and easy to use. I have used it occasionally (and have always followed this up with a PM to the transgressor). I have not had to use it for many months. As with E-Budo, so with AikiWeb, there is a small group of posters whose grasp of the rules and conventions for productive discussion seems limited. Attempts at education or training are the only recourse here, it seems to me, but this involves some individual interaction with the offending posters. I think moderators are the ones who should do this, not other posters. Of course, it goes without saying that such moderating has to be scrupulously fair and even handed. Best wishes, PAG |
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