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-   -   Pain - How Important? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17138)

gtango2000 11-09-2009 03:56 PM

Pain - How Important?
 
Are there any techniques that causing pain is important to make it work? Does yonkyu work with out pain. Glenn

gtango2000 11-09-2009 03:59 PM

Re: The point of Yonkyo
 
Is pain needed to make yonkyo effective. Glenn

jss 11-09-2009 04:04 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Glenn Tango wrote: (Post 245121)
Are there any techniques that causing pain is important to make it work? Does yonkyu work with out pain. Glenn

No. Yes.
Don't rely on pain compliance, take their balance.

p.s. If you apply nikkyo and uke totally relaxes their arm, it will hurt. If they tense the arm to protect the wrist joint, you get the leverage to further manipulate their balance.

ninjaqutie 11-09-2009 04:14 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
It can work minus the pain. Yes there are techniques that require the use of pain to be effective, but I haven't come across one in aikido yet. :)

Janet Rosen 11-09-2009 05:14 PM

Re: The point of Yonkyo
 
Quote:

Glenn Tango wrote: (Post 245122)
Is pain needed to make yonkyo effective. Glenn

No, not if the lock is connecting to partner's center and balance is taken.

Janet Rosen 11-09-2009 05:15 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
You double posted to old yonkyo thread, see my reply there

chillzATL 11-10-2009 04:15 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
yonkyo, nikkyo, sankyo are all designed to hurt. You use them to lighten up your attacker and get them moving where you want them to go.

RED 11-10-2009 04:25 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Glenn Tango wrote: (Post 245121)
Are there any techniques that causing pain is important to make it work? Does yonkyu work with out pain. Glenn

I was always told no. My Sensei has a killer yonkyo, and it can be applied without compressing the nerve clusters. I was at least told by my instructors to never rely on pain compliance alone, but the goal should always be ballance taking. Pain compliance won't work on everyone, but gravity will.

kokyu 11-11-2009 09:38 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 245246)
I was always told no. My Sensei has a killer yonkyo, and it can be applied without compressing the nerve clusters. I was at least told by my instructors to never rely on pain compliance alone, but the goal should always be ballance taking. Pain compliance won't work on everyone, but gravity will.

Completely agree... some people have extremely thick forearms and while you are busy pressing away to find the nerve cluster, he will probably escape... more important would be whether you are connected to uke's center via the yonkyo lock to off balance him

RED 11-11-2009 02:02 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Soon-Kian Phang wrote: (Post 245300)
Completely agree... some people have extremely thick forearms and while you are busy pressing away to find the nerve cluster, he will probably escape... more important would be whether you are connected to uke's center via the yonkyo lock to off balance him

Worse than escape, attack you!

I was told also some people just don't feel it.
..a crazy extreme would be the fact that some drug users don't feel pain at a certain point. Not saying I'm fighting off meth heads left and right, lol... just saying I think relying on pain compliance isn't doing your aikido justice.

chillzATL 11-11-2009 02:48 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 245335)
Worse than escape, attack you!

I was told also some people just don't feel it.
..a crazy extreme would be the fact that some drug users don't feel pain at a certain point. Not saying I'm fighting off meth heads left and right, lol... just saying I think relying on pain compliance isn't doing your aikido justice.

I don't understand the notion that yonkyo, nikkyo and sankyo aren't supposed to be painful. That's what they are for! The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.

Carsten Möllering 11-11-2009 03:39 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Hi
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 245339)
The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.

No, if done right, they all work completely without adding pain just by taking ukes center.

Greetings,
Carsten

SeaGrass 11-11-2009 04:44 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
There's nothing wrong with both, pain and taking balance.

RED 11-11-2009 08:21 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 245339)
I don't understand the notion that yonkyo, nikkyo and sankyo aren't supposed to be painful. That's what they are for! The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.

I don't want tendinitis in 5 years. lol
Don't get me wrong, I do do joint manipulations, and I do apply the crunch.

Other than that, sometimes you can't do a technique.
Example, what if you go for sankyo and notice the guy has made a fist. You are already committed to that sankyo, so you must act in that split second.and complete that sankyo. If you were taught to put emphasis on the ballance and center cutting off the bat, it is not a problem, sankyo still works. If you rely on pain alone I believe you are doing your aikido a disservice. In my little opinion, relying on pain compliance can become a crutch.
I've worked with a person before that relies only on pain compliance. When the pain compliance doesn't work, they try to muscle through, which can hurt some one seriously. Because all they ever learned was to apply pain to protect themselves, they have no back up plan. But they do have full blown tendinitis from a decade or more of taking those techniques.

The ideal is that all techniques can be done without doing any harm to the attacker.

Janet Rosen 11-11-2009 10:14 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Well, there is a difference btwn pain that is associated with acute tendon damage and the momentary flash of pain in, say, nikkyo, that is the result of momentary touching of the nerve rich covering of 2 bones; it hurts and is gone. HOWEVER, it the lock is applied correctly, so that uke is actually locked up all the way up the arm, through the shoulder, to his center, then the pain will only flash on if and when uke turns to regain his balance.

A good sankyo lock has my balance from the start; if the person starts whipping me around using pain compliance to make me follow him or dance around, to me that is gratuitous; he could have just dropped me from the start.

Pain compliance all the way down to me indicates the person doesn't actually have me locked; I'll move and I'll tap but I'll also tell him it was purely pain, please try again.

My two cents

Maarten De Queecker 11-12-2009 01:45 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 245376)
Well, there is a difference btwn pain that is associated with acute tendon damage and the momentary flash of pain in, say, nikkyo, that is the result of momentary touching of the nerve rich covering of 2 bones; it hurts and is gone. HOWEVER, it the lock is applied correctly, so that uke is actually locked up all the way up the arm, through the shoulder, to his center, then the pain will only flash on if and when uke turns to regain his balance.

A good sankyo lock has my balance from the start; if the person starts whipping me around using pain compliance to make me follow him or dance around, to me that is gratuitous; he could have just dropped me from the start.

Pain compliance all the way down to me indicates the person doesn't actually have me locked; I'll move and I'll tap but I'll also tell him it was purely pain, please try again.

My two cents

Since you move and tap, I'd say the person has got you locked pretty well, since you can't do anything.

Of course, in the ideal situation you have a combination of pain compliance and taking uke's balance, but in certain cases, you only need one of the two.

Carsten Möllering 11-12-2009 02:22 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Maarten De Queecker wrote: (Post 245386)
Since you move and tap, I'd say the person has got you locked pretty well, since you can't do anything.

Well yes, that's true. But it's not a good technique - in our understanding. Because you can resist it if you want to or if you are trained to ignore pain or don't feel it or ...
Using the pressure points or moving uke by pain instead of simple mechanics in our eyes isn't yet the pure technique like it is meant to be.

Some years ago we used to play a game using yonkyo. Knowing that it just hurts but doesn't injure uke we try to stand the pain as long as we could.
So nage applied yonkyo and uke didn't move, maybe tears in his eye but didn't move maybe gasping but didn't move.
We were young ... ;-)

In the end we experienced that after some time everyone in the dojo could resist every nage. Pain just didn't work if the fear of injury was taken away.

But: If we did yonkyo right using open hands (like we learned it form Endo Sensei years later) nobody could resist.

Yonkyo is - as the other osae waza are - a question of positioning, angles, mechanics of ukes body.
You can do ikkyo, nikyo and yonkyo using open hands, only your palms. You don't have to grip. Sankyo is a little different because you have to use the side of ukes hand.

If you rely on the pressuer point(s - which one do you use?) in yonkyo what about the pressure points in kote gaeshi, irimi nage, shiho nage ...?
Do you also rely on them or do think irimi nage should work without adding pain to pressure points?

Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 245376)
Pain compliance all the way down to me indicates the person doesn't actually have me locked; I'll move and I'll tap but I'll also tell him it was purely pain, please try again.

Yes that's the way we think about it too.

It is a big difference if someone has just locked your joint(s) or controls your whole body and is able to move you the way he decides.

On the other side I think it is important to get a feeling for that. On both sides: For uke to deal with pain, with the joint lock ...
And for nage to understand what is happening when doing the technique, understandig it's mechanics and so being able to widen the use of it from just causing pain to the joint to moving the whole body of uke.

Greetings,
Carsten

Charles Hill 11-12-2009 03:00 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
I read a fascinating article on the psychology of pain compliance on the 'net somewhere a few years ago. The author concluded that individuals react in one of four ways to pain. Only one of them was "Yes, that hurts and I will do what you want me to do to stop the pain." I don't clearly remember the other three, but the conclusion was that pain compliance is often not effective.

I highly recommend Kevin Secours' DVD "Primal Power 2: Simplifying Restraint and Control Tactics". Kevin lays out the whole use of force continum used by most leo agencies and how to train it for self defense. The set also includes a DVD on how to adapt groundfighting in realistic situations.

Eva Antonia 11-12-2009 03:32 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Hi,

I think it depends very much on the teacher and the philosophy he follows if pain is "foreseen" or not.

First, there is the possibility for uke to anticipate pain; whenever you feel "now it WILL start to hurt" you escape into a fall. I generally don't like that very much because as the previous participants say - where is the balance aspect of the technique if uke just dives out of a beginning pain? However, I do that regularly for shiho nage because my wrists turn too easily and too much, and I'm afraid to damage them if tori regularly finishes shiho nage properly.

On the other hand, if you try to RESIST as uke, there are some techniques that hurt like hell AND damage, even if they don't work in the end. Such as sankyo. A determined tori can tear your hand like a screw but maybe still wouldn't unbalance you if he isn't in the good position. So if you resist the technique won't work but your hand will hurt for a long time.

Then there are people who try to perfection their technique concentrating on the balance, and they manage lots of techniques without inducing the slightest pain. That works on kote gaeshi, ikkyo, yonkyo, shiho nage and certainly on all rapid techniques without locks.

And then I remember still my old teacher here in Brussels, who made yonkyo and nikkyo with only the slightest pressure, just between two fingers, and it BOTH unbalanced AND hurt like hell...I've seen something similar only with Endo.

For me personally, it doesn't matter too much if the technique hurts or not, as far as no permanent damage remains.

Best regards,

Eva

Janet Rosen 11-12-2009 06:48 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Maarten De Queecker wrote: (Post 245386)
Since you move and tap, I'd say the person has got you locked pretty well, since you can't do anything..

I respectfully disagree.
I tap because I'm being crunched in a way that hurts like hell and makes me afraid I'm going to lose a tendon.
But that does NOT mean that the technique was necessarily being correctly applied. All pain causing compliance is not necessarily good aikido.

chillzATL 11-12-2009 08:19 AM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 245363)
I don't want tendinitis in 5 years. lol
Don't get me wrong, I do do joint manipulations, and I do apply the crunch.

Other than that, sometimes you can't do a technique.
Example, what if you go for sankyo and notice the guy has made a fist. You are already committed to that sankyo, so you must act in that split second.and complete that sankyo. If you were taught to put emphasis on the ballance and center cutting off the bat, it is not a problem, sankyo still works. If you rely on pain alone I believe you are doing your aikido a disservice. In my little opinion, relying on pain compliance can become a crutch.
I've worked with a person before that relies only on pain compliance. When the pain compliance doesn't work, they try to muscle through, which can hurt some one seriously. Because all they ever learned was to apply pain to protect themselves, they have no back up plan. But they do have full blown tendinitis from a decade or more of taking those techniques.

The ideal is that all techniques can be done without doing any harm to the attacker.

Well I wasn't so much talking about in training. You obviously don't want to spend a night cranking the heck out of everyones wrists on nikkyo's and ikkyo's, but to do the technique properly you always apply a little pain, judging of course uke/attackers reaction to that pain. If just a little is enough to lighten them up so you can move them where you want them to go, great. If not, you apply as much as it takes. In training I've found it best, as another person in this thread mentioned, that you lock them up to the point that there is slight discomfort, but you have a strong lock in place. If they resist or try to turn out of it or hit you, the lock is strong enough that it may apply the pain for you, based on what htey're doing. Or you can easily apply more yourself, but the pain is a primary component of the technique.

Also, while it is a topic for another discussion entirely. I respectfully disagree with your last sentence.

jonreading 11-12-2009 12:18 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
I think I would like to address some of the comments I've seen here from my perspective.

First, pain is not required for effective technique. However, nage has a burden to illustrate the risk of non-compliance is not attractive. Nage has the burden of convincing uke there is a 100% percent chance uke will not "win" in continued interaction. Discomfort is a consequence of a poor decision, not the cause of the decision.

Second, pain is a subjective term and therefore volitile as an indicator of success. Pain is a symptom of the technique, not the cause. Applying nikyo to weakend wrist is much easier than applying the same technique to healthy strong wrist. Pain thresholds differ between students. All of these variable responses change uke's risk analysis and therefore the ultimate decision to comply (or not). Is nikyo successful if it causes pain? No, nikyo is successfull if it solicits compliance. I have never seen good aikido technique that could not cause discomfort [pain]; I have seen plenty of bad technique that could not cause discomfort.

Third, good technique creates risk for uke, the risk solicits a response. You need good mechanics in addition to a host of other elements for successful technique, and part of the mechanics is creating jeopardy for uke. As Janet said, she complied with nage because she felt her wrist was in jeopardy of being damanged. Do you think it is really important whether the nikyo was perfect? Nope. Nage has some homework to perform a better nikyo, but the technique was successful.

I don't think the decision to cause pain lies with nage. To debate whether nage should cause pain is incorrect. In other words, nage would not debate the following question, "should I hurt uke when I do nikyo?"

The decision to receive pain lies with uke. If uke chooses to stand there while nage cranks on nikyo, god bless 'em. In other words, the question from uke should be, "why should I resist nikyo if it causes pain?"

Pauliina Lievonen 11-12-2009 12:48 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

Jon Reading wrote: (Post 245410)
In other words, the question from uke should be, "why should I resist nikyo if it causes pain?"

Because if the only thing the nikkyo does is cause pain, I'm still free to move if I ignore the pain. So I still have a chance to reverse the technique, or hit tori on the nose for example.

If I can't move freely anymore, the nikkyo has done more than just cause pain, it has affected my ability to move. In which case it doesn't depend on pain to be effective anymore, the pain is just a side effect. Which IMO is preferable.

So even in training, I might choose to not move if the only thing that happens is I feel pain. Note: "not move" doesn't equal "resist".

If I tap out early because I want to spare my wrists, my partner should be aware that that doesn't give any guarantees about what might happen the next time they try to crank a nikkyo on Bubba from the Biker Bar. :p :crazy:

Ultimately I think this discussion is a bit pointless - no one is going to belive a painless nikkyo can be effective, until they experience one...

kvaak
Pauliina

Eric Joyce 11-12-2009 02:17 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
I was taught never to control by pain alone, that you must have mechanical control of the opponent. Pain is just icing on the cake. There are a lot of people, no matter how hard you crank down on the nerves, they don't feel jack squat. Breaking their posture by gaining mechanical control should be the first thing, which creates that kuzushi to do other fun stuff :)

Basia Halliop 11-12-2009 02:58 PM

Re: Pain - How Important?
 
Quote:

As Janet said, she complied with nage because she felt her wrist was in jeopardy of being damanged. Do you think it is really important whether the nikyo was perfect? Nope. Nage has some homework to perform a better nikyo, but the technique was successful.
Well, it was successful in the context of a dojo practice, with a health-conscious attacker who was attacking simply for the purpose of learning something and helping her partner learn something. I.e., she was not willing to risk taking a few weeks off from training or work to heal from an injury, knew there would be no negative consequence to herself if she submitted, and was calm and collected enough to realize all these things. To me those are all important assumptions.


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