Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
I was sorting through another thread and found what I feel was one of the best posts to focus in on ki/jin/kokyu development in Aikido. I've quoted that post below, and offer it as a seperate starting point for some specific discussions on the development exercises others are using and how they apply the product of those exercises specifcally in their Aikido.
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One technique that seems (at least to me) to have a good oppotunity to test the product of this type of training is Tenchinage. Here we have the opportunity to use sinking (aiki sage) and rising (aiki-age) power, as well as winding, splitting uke's body and power along the central axis, using the power of the in breath while connecting that to outer movement, and other things as well, I'm sure. I would greatly appreciate any relevent additions to this topic. Best, Ron |
Re: kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Hi, good idea Ron.
A lot of issues are connected here (sorry for the pun) ; so although not kokyu specifically and i'm not sure if it is outside what you were looking for; but i liked this basic description and seems to me it's relevant; Quote:
lump = dantien region i liked the way he describes the outer body and the inner body centers of gravity. Ron, was this okay? or too far off? |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Yes, this is a good start. I think this gives an accurate description of developing the skills required that are then used in Tenchinage. Some things it did not address:
Removing slack from the partner's body. Breathing. Use of open/close in our body in coordination with the waza. But I think you've handed me a foundation at least to discuss some of the things that need to go on. If someone has some Japanese terms for some of these same things, that would be good too. Could you speak a little about how you would apply these things in Tenchinage? Best, Ron |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Oh, and if others feel there are other posts in that thread that will push the discussion along, please feel free to reference them here.
Best, Ron |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Hi Ron:
Perhaps a good question or focus can be made about the use of the hara (dantien/tanden/One-Point etc.) in Aikido training (although the same principle will functionally apply in any art that seriously tries to 'move from the hara'). If you move from the hara, the hara controls the movement. In fact, the body has to develop to the point that "the hara IS the hands", in order for their to be true 'movement from the hara'. So in effect, to cut to the chase, a lot of the various modes of training are really to build up and connect the hara to whatever point of the body is needed at a particular instant. The hara draws its power from the solidity of the ground or the down-weight of the body, the power of the legs, the hips, and the natural power of the hara, also. There's more to it than that, but the general statement is good enough. The question becomes "how much hara control is used in Aikido?". As I noted in that post you quoted from, there's a valid question about how dominant the hara controls are in Aikido: Ueshiba appears to use more and better hara controls than I see in Tohei (this is a personal observation and is, of course, open to debate). The more dominant the use of the hara, the more a person gains actual "whole-body" controls and the purer the "mind-body" controls. As I've said many times, there are many levels and gradations of the ki/kokyu skills and sometimes practicing one style will forever pattern you in such a way that you cannot switch over. It's a subtle but important point. On the other hand, let's say for the sake of discussion that Tohei (and some others) indeed had a variant that was not as hara-dominant as Ueshiba's movement... how much difference did that make in their Aikido? Wasn't Tohei given a 10th dan by Ueshiba? Maybe the hara dominance is, for the purposes of Aikido, a difference without an important distinction? If we circumvent the hara-dominance question, we still have to look at the question of hooking the hara to all parts of the body as the main (general) answer to your question, in terms of developing the skills. The parts of your question that have to do with the technique itself and handling of Uke's body are, to me, sort of separate issues. If the kokyu skills are 'pure', the handling of a given Uke will be done one way; if the kokyu skills or 'not pure' (or non-existent), the handling of Uke must be different, logically. My 2 cents. Best. Mike |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Hi Ron,
these are some of my scattered thoughts. are they of any use to you, or anyone? I am a bag of marbles open on a table.. ;) Quote:
MS encouraged people to 'talk it out' so i'll give it another shot. I think the nuts and bolts is important.. but maybe useless and too difficult online. despite my better judgement... here goes ;) Well, I hear what MS and others talking about various types of internal power methods and schemes..but I think it is a safe assumption, since aikido came from DR, that DR body methods are compatible (amongst others?) with the desired aiki of aikido. What I think it is that we are hunting for. So..let me (please) pick up on that..Dan has kindly planted many seeds throughout the web…even here…and I'll put some in this post.(hope it's okay; I apologize in advance if not) First of all; talking about this stuff is hard. For instance From< Quote:
Slack in my humble understanding of sinking and rising energy these are powered internally by the hara region as well as knowing how ‘what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage". First the slack has to come out of you, from your shugyo training. This is the body conditioning and 'the changed body' that is pointed to. As that happens then (it was written) smaller and smaller movements of you will have more profound effects on uke. Good basic technique of tenchi nage will have to take out the slack to get access to his center..I think this always and still remains a prerequisite to direct-center-to-center manipulation. Even at high level I assume. (agree?) Breathing I don't know what to say. I think that when you take the mechanical slack (i.e. joints aligned, kokyu established in uke) then you go into what MS terms the suit (I do not recall Dan using any term like/equivalent (to) that. agree?). I think that once the low-order mechanical slack is removed..then (/simultaneously) remove slack in the suit; by inflating it with breath pressure (i.e. similar to intra-abdomal pressure of valsalva maneuver, but with epiglottis open). A part of this is the hara/dantien region. Pumping the hara region. Actually; i think this should be on from before the beginning of the encounter. (agree?). I currently think of the hara as a trim-pot (/tuning mechanism) or bridge between strictly the alignment (/kokyu or groundpath) stuff and the bodysuit stuff. It allows these two systems to 'mix' and/or communicate and/or change incoming/outgoing forces. I called that the 'Intent System' previously. My model may be faulty; buyer beware. re: Breath pressure: This pressure can be moved by will power (via dantien rotation.. when structure is established.. this I think is moving the "ki" to where it is needed). I think in tenchinage it needs to go both upward in the aiki-age arm and down in the aiki sage arm. This points to a splitting of your power upwards and downwards. I am not sure on that. Perhaps downward is more passive; just using body-weight and kokyu connection. I do not know. in regards to the splitting your body into aiki-age and aiki-sage. (again talking waaay over my pay grade… but hoping for correction(s) and some interesting conversation) -I think we should consider the model of the internal-flows (/fields of influence of the body); where Dan talks about dual-helixes in the body. again; Here< Quote:
I think the dual-helixes of internal flowing go in different directions, simultaneously; one resulting in rising aiki-age and one resulting in falling aiki-sage. This ultimately powered by the moving of 'ki' pressure where you need it, as well as the 'moving and drawing-in' that was defined above. This results in loading uke in both directions simultaneously. I do not understand the relation of these to the aiki technique itself. re: open/close just thoughts: -I can see a close when on the entry you close and draw uke in front of yoursef. -I can see the open, on the rising hand; when you turn your hips on the rising hand entry -I can see another closing of the body on the lead into and follow through of the projection. you? ..I'm done and more than a little embarrassed … hoping something good can some of this… What do you think Ron? p.s. i'm well f*n aware that yakking and doing it are 2 different things. but you gotta know what you're after. don't ya'? |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Agreed, Josh, ya gotta start where you are.
I think I follow you on just about everything you posted...let me offer a clarification on the open/close. I think of open coordinated with the in breath and seperating the hands, to split uke. This would fit with the back bow mentioned in the article you quoted and the other things that go along with that. I think of the close on the actual throw, the hands coming together, front knee bent, zanshin posture, breathing out. I don't mean these to be set in stone, but in general, this is what seems to occur with this particular waza. Quote:
Best, Ron |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Hi Mike,
Well, the differences between say, Ueshiba, Tohei, and Shioda are of particular interest to me. And how NOT to limit myself too much by choosing development methods that will basically knock me out of the ball park of all 3. :D Do I understand this correctly: Ueshiba, very soft training methods, hara dominant, pretty circular Tohei, still pretty soft, more linear Shioda, seems to be much harder, much more explosive, and sometimes extremely linear. It would seem to me stressing either Ueshiba's methods or Tohei's methods could still lend a great deal of progress in moving in Shioda's way...but perhaps not so much in the other direction? Best, Ron |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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Here's my training thoughts. From a beginner, mind you. 1. I first started learning how to build a pathway inside my body. In other words, working with a push coming into my outstretched right hand and letting that energy go into the ground under my left foot. That didn't help with any techniques, for example tenchi nage. I needed to move to do the technique. When I moved, I lost those pathways. Never mind the fact that I still had tons of slack in my body. 2. I was also working on contradictory forces. So when working on that same push to my right hand, not only was the force going into me, but I was using intent to send energy out my arms. That didn't help with any techniques, for example tenchi nage. I needed to move to do the technique. When I moved, I lost those pathways and that intent on contradictory forces. Never mind the fact that I still had tons of slack in my body. 3. I was working on contradictory forces in the spine. And you get the point. 4. Now, add in the shiko exercise. I'm trying to do 1-3 throughout the exercise. It's helping me to get better and I'm using simple movements with no external pressure or energy. 5. Okay, so then I start trying to learn how to send intent outwards more. Simple paired exercises, connecting to a partner helped to work on this. Light pushes to start with and focusing intent or multiple intents. 6. Add #5 into shiko exercises. 7. Progressing to trying to learn spirals. Holding multiple intents in contradictory directions. Add to shiko. 8. Working on lower cross in hip area. Trying to learn open/close of hips. Add to shiko. Failing miserably trying to keep everything going in this simple exercise. 9. Add in the spine pull as the focus to raise legs. Add to shiko. I'll stop there. My point is that in one exercise, shiko, I have found a vehicle for all internal exercises. Not only that, but there are other exercises that I do, like shiko, that also encapsulates internal training. Focusing on shiko, though, what does it give me? Well, I don't have to worry about outside pressures interacting with me. I don't have to worry about outside energy overloading me. I am forced to focus on me and internal mechanics. As I progressed through those solo exercises, I also worked on paired exercises to help identify, strengthen, and work those internal areas. And this gave me a way to get outside pressure and outside energy to load my system to the point of failure and work through that. And now, I'm working on "technique", like tenchi nage. Only I really don't work it as a technique at all. I see aikido techniques as a vehicle for training aiki. What I mean by that is now that the solo and paired exercises are coming along, I have another step in my training. Simple dynamic movement under load and pressure. Not technique. I don't want to think that I'm trying to do something to someone because that kills everything I'm training in internal skills. The short answer to your question is, yes. Tenchi nage can be a great vehicle to use to work aiki. For me, though, I wasn't ready to do that until after I trained in solo and paired exercises. Even now, I don't view them as techniques, but simple dynamic exercises. Once I get better, I'll try better dynamic environments ... all the while still working all previous exercises. Everyone works and trains differently. I had trouble trying to do Aikido techniques while working solo and paired exercises. I quit doing techniques and for me, it helped exponentially. Other people are doing other things. |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Thanks Mark. I understand your point about needing to work the solo, and that's kind of a given in my opinion. But I think there are enough people out there now working on that given, and I'd like to try to see **how** others are applying that solo work **now** in their waza, whether or not they have progressed beyond "doing something" to uke. Of course, this does not make the sentiments you expressed any less valid.
I'll use your mention of shiko as a spring board. One of the things that I picked up online is why the bent arm on the leg that is lifting is turned palm down. I found that when my intent was to kind of use the palm to push down into the opposite weighted leg, at the same time that I pushed up from the ground into that palm, my whole sense of balance was radiacally (for me) changed. Then I realized that I could do that same thing mentally **wherever** my hands were, in **whatever** exercise I was doing. And then **whenever** moving. Carrying that sense of what I'll call "weighting accross the body" **whenever** is mentally fatiguing, but it does seem to improve my balance quite a bit, and to enhance the develpment of structure as well. I'm going to stop here for now...but maybe in a later post I can tie that into the technique at hand. Best, Ron |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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Just to complicate matters, though, divergences can and do start anywhere. Generally, though, you can see that different approaches by Ueshiba, by Tohei, and by Shioda led to (some of the better) students of each having a noticeably different flavor to their Aikido. It's a good topic and will merit more discussion in the future times. Quote:
Best. Mike |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Hey Ron! Here's my overly simplistic, probably erroneous take on Tenchi Nage. As far as removing slack from uke, I think If you source the two forces correctly (Aiki-sage and Aiki-age) it makes your partner unconciously "want" to hold on to your wrists. In the Aiki-sage hand you're basically leading their center into a hole behind them, which makes your wrist their main source of earth reference. Similarly, in the Aiki-age hand your center is basically driving up underneath them causing them to float which has the same basic effect of them relying on you for balance. As your arms spread out, uke's arms naturally have to spread out also, creating a connection across hos upper body?
For the breathing, as you take the first step you inhale to increase the pressure in the back bow for more power, and the pressure/connection in the arms and the upper cross. As you throw, exhaling adds more power by dropping the hara suddenly. I think you're dead on about the open/close aspect. That's exactly how I see it, which could be bad news for you!:o Again, just my two cents, and it may not even be that much! Jeff |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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The correct amount of startle affect (this can weaken the training of the other aspects though...when training slowly to work on other aspects, you don't really have the benefit of this) A kind of magnetic or sticky feeling for uke when they grab you...any further suggestions for how to develop that feel outside of the technique?? A feeling of where you are grasped kind of "expanding" or pressurizing to fit uke's grip. Any others? Best, Ron |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Ron,
My understanding of the "suit" aspect is pretty elementary but I think it would have to do with keeping the pressure/connection in your own arms, rather than uke''s. If you're developed enough I think this pressure is what keeps your arms stable, rather than muscle. I'm personally, not a big fan of the startle effect. It depends too much on individual response to stimuli. Some people could hold on for dear life, but others' instinct could be to retract and let go. One thing that I was working on before my hiatus was using my intent to affect my partner. There is a tangible feeling in both parties when it's done correctly. If I could effectively direct my intent into uke through arms and touch their center with mine, I found I could make them do some interesting things. I couldn't always pull it off but when I did i definitely saw the potential for such training. |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
We are on the same page with the startle affect.
Yeah, I'm pretty weak in my understanding of suit still...well, weaker than all the other stuff I weakly understand... :D One of the last things someone said to me while training was that they felt a spiraling of energy when I focused on the xbody weighting intention while doing a step in throw / kokyunage. I need to see how that can apply when working with a partner on tenchinage now... B, R |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Well, one of my sensei often says that the one-point is where the power is generated - the arms, hands, etc. just direct it. Usually the point being that the controlled relaxation along with the feeling of letting the ki flow from the one-point allows the technique to happen. My experience with tenchinage is that at first students tend to focus on upsetting the balance with the high hand then dropping them with either the low or going over the top and powering them down. Eventually they start to clue in that both hands are working together but they still tend to emphasize something "out there" at the connection in the hands. But the ideal for me speaking personally is to get the connection to their center, enter by moving the center then drop both of our centers. Tenchinage just "happens" when I can get that level of "connectedness". So soft, controlled arms, enter maintaining that structure -- one goes up, the other stays low. Drop center. Person goes plop. Or kaboom if you give it a bit extra "umpphhh" along the way.
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Oh, and fwiw after Mike's seminar I went back to my dojo and taught a class that included tenchinage because I wanted to work on that store/release feeling myself and work out how it might fit into what I do. I find it helpful for starting and finishing -- puts a new "spark" into things and I find it helps me have a better form on the initial movement.
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
And on startle and tenchinage -- I find it counterproductive. Done "softly" with a good solid structure it can be done relatively slowly with the recipient feeling like they have you right up until that moment when the bottom drops out...
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
Personally, I think Tenchi Nage is one of the best traditional techniques for exploring ki and kokyu. We worked on it at my first Mike Sigman seminar and I found it to be a very useful tool for working on what was supposed to be happening internally. If it's done slowly and in a very relaxed manner that is.;)
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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Why not "any" technique? Give it time and it will get there. Best, FL |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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Best. Mike |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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And since the topic title is about kokyu development for aiki in Aikido, why not stick to the really basic stuff, like... er... kokyu-ho instead? I mean, isn't that the entire point of kokyu-ho; for kokyu development? Or am I missing the context because I wasn't at the seminar? |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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This is why I so often simply ask people to just "push me" as a first evaluation of what they can do. It's easy to feel the development that they have for just the one skill. If they have very good development, it's easiest to *then* jump to something else in terms of evaluation. Speaking of development, that reminds me of one of my old favorite anecdotes (I'm sure that I've told it before, but just roll with me). One of my teachers was very well known in mainland China in martial-arts circles. When he first came to the U.S., a Chinese man from Taiwan issued a challenge to him to push-hands. My teacher was a little discomfitted because while he did push-hands OK, he admitted that it was not his specialty and that he only did it "so-so". We were all at a friend's house when the doorbell rang and my teacher was introduced to the challenger and they shook hands. After the handshake, my teacher passed by me on the way to the push-hands room and whispered to me sotto voce, "no problem". He easily and diplomatically handled his challenger. My point is that the initial probe is always for basic skills and then work upward. If someone doesn't have the basic skills, by inference their upper-level skills are going to be lacking, no matter how "powerful" they are, how much of a push they can take, and so on. It's the purity of the skills that determines the ultimate higher levels. ;) FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido
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Teaching it (like I always teach it) was just my way of making sure I got a chance to practice so I could fiddle around a bit more in class especially with students who didn't know I was fiddling around. So it was one of those classes you teach to allow yourself room to explore and play. I had a few experienced people in the class and one of them asked me "what was that -- it felt different". I just smiled and went on with the lesson... Exploration... I also started the class with lots of one-point testing from all sorts of angles. Including pushing on an outstretched arm bent at the elbow 90 degrees parallel to the ground... ;) Practice, practice, practice... |
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