Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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If others have found them helpful in improving their aikido/taiji/whatever, that is good for them. I will continue to point out that their arguments do not convince a lot of people, however. |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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No question... the "jargon" was left over from a time when folks had absolutely no idea what was happening and the folks that spread Aikido had these cool things to show. They were especially effective as you could get a newbie to do it in a couple of minutes and they were really impressed. The only reason that I mention it is that, now that Aikido has been around a lot longer, folks have tended to dismiss the exercise. As Mike says, there is actually a range of things that can be going on. I can't comment about the range, I only know what I am doing. But it is still a very good exercise to do in a seminar to let people do a quick down and dirty check to see if they understand in their bodies what they need to be doing with their arms in their waza. As I said, if they cannot both flex and then extend again while under pressure, without tensing up their lower and upper arms noticeably, they really don't have any way to do waza properly. They will either collide or collapse when they make contact with an opposing force. It can also be a demonstration of the way the arms are integrated into the whole of the body, which I believe is what Mike also alluded to. One should be able to not only flex and extend while under pressure from the partner but also, by simply rotating the hips, move the partner around fairly effortlessly. This can help people understand that they aren't going to use their arms for power in their technique. |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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- oops, sorry, you're probably too young to remember that one.... Anyway, give me a break, this is a discussion forum... it's ALL testimony. If you don't find it helpful, then why participate? You are simply being selective about which testimony you choose to pay attention to. |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Here's what I had to say on 11-1-2005 after watching some of the Aunkai videos from http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31125 "Saw these a while back when his student was pushing him as the greatest thing since sliced (crustless of course) bread. Honestly, not that impressed, if you've ever been thrown around by Don Angier or his guys, you'll see nothing new here. It's not that it's bad, but it's not exactly groundbreaking..." And here's my post to the same thread after training with him (oddly enough, exactly one year to the day later on 11-1-2006): "So I just got back from a trip to Japan and Ark allowed me and a training partner of mine to work into one of his classes. Huge thanks to him, Rob, Adam and the rest of his guys. So having actually had a few hours of face time and more importantly hands ON time, I thought I should follow up on this post. The short version is that I'm currently soaking my feet in a lovely wasabi-soy concoction that should make having my feet in my mouth a much more plesant experience. Ark probably is about the best thing since crustless sliced bread, and (to me at least) it most certainly felt groundbreaking. But beyond Ark's own very considerable skill, I was equally impressed with the very high level of skill of his students that had been with him for a couple years. It was clear that not only was he able to do some amazing stuff, but that he had a system for building these same internal skills in others. Further, he's able to do so in a relatively short period of time. Rob's been training with Ark for about three years (if I remember correctly) and easily had better body skills than nearly anyone I have dealt with in Aikido in the US, that list would include some 6th-8th dans who are serious mucky mucks in the seminar circuit. What they're doing is not very similar to what I've seen of Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu, but felt a bit more like what Systema might be one day. I generally call it like I see it, but when I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, and I was certainly wrong on this one. Again, huge thanks to Rob for coordinating our visit and Ark for having us. My only regret is the sleep I lost that night trying desparately to wrap my head around some of the things that were done in class." It sucks, but you just have to feel it, try it on and play around with it. Live in it for a while. I've got a total exposure time to Ark of about four hours (1/2 that over beers) and maybe another 6-10 with Rob and it's changed the way I move on a very fundamental level. |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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You've been to Oz? Who, where and when? Is there anyone worth meeting? If there is, that would be great, it could save me hours of sitting on internet forums trying to peice this stuff together. Aran |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Best. Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Aran |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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If Akuzawa is in Europe and he has a shortcut I'd definitely be interested in seeing it :) Regards Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Mike then said: Quote:
Keep one point Keep calm and relaxed Keep weight underside Extend Ki Those four things are in fact only one thing because you can't properly do any one of them without doing the other three. With regards to the push to the chest etc (what I'd probably refer to as the standing naturally ki test), it has, as with all ki soc tests got many different levels of skill and testing difficulty. May I ask you to describe which of these levels you have seen and tried in the Ki Soc derived dojo you've visited Mike? It would be helpful in dissecting this and determining if we really are just talking about the same thing here. Otherwise we'll just be going about this at cross purposes and probably start annoying each other. Regards Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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I'll offer the first three levels of 'standing naturally' here for you to look at if you wish to, and because others may be curious too: 1) Tester gently applies pressure between shoulder blades and also places hand on the front of the shoulder applying pressure in a straight horizontal line. 2)Same as test 1, only this time there is a fake or hesitation thrown in, tester stops just before they make contact and alters the test. This is to determine if the receiver is anticipating the incoming test, it is often failed because people try to resist the pressure and fight against it. When the tester stops short they often lean forwards into where the hand would have been. For the test on the front, tester aims to test at the shoulder, stops and lowers the hand to push on the ribs instead. 3) Tester stands 3-5 paces away, in front of partner, gives a vigorous tekubi shindo undo then walks in purposefully and places hand on the shoulder pushing straight ahead. Same from the rear only pressure is applied between the shoulder blades. For all tests receiver should be standing shoulder width apart, should be standing upright and should have the knees unlocked and the heels hovering just above the floor. Regards Mike Haft PS - I agree with you about the wasted discussion. |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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In your descriptions, let me just be brief and say that I understand what you're getting at, but we might be picturing different forces. Any martial artist who uses jin/kokyu forces will get better and better. My comment to Ki-Society people was that I felt they could do better... at least the ones I felt.... and I encouraged them to keep looking. You considered that condescending. In terms of "tests", they're good for learning. But after a certain point, you wind up with guys who can do the "tests" pretty well, but they have no other skills. That was the essence of what I've been saying to the Ki-Society people (but it's an encouragement... I think some of them are off to a good start, frankly). Just stopping at basic skills and "tests" is to leave money on the table, IMO. Instead of being able to hold a 30-pound push to the back, etc., why not start learning how to use the hara better and more articulately? Why not learn how to release power? And so on. The levels of testing ability can be limiting if that's what people focus on, IMO. Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Regards Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
Mike (Ecosamurai) I'm curious what exercises in the Ki Society help develop the skills that the test you describe tests for?
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Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Amongst many many methods and exercises, there is also the Koichi Tohei warmup where you practice certain movements and exercises i.e. the rowing exercise and others. The tests assess your ability to do these things properly. Sadly there is no quick fix or shortcut you just have to feel it and practice it with an instructor who knows what they're doing. This is why I'm interested in the Akuzawa stuff that I've seen around lately, if he has a quicker method for teaching these things than I know of I would be fascinated to learn more about it. Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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One funny thing I've seen over the years with a *few* people is that when you lead them quickly and directly to doing the ki tests, get them to relax and sink the origin of their forces, hook up the body, etc.... they're not happy. They want it to be magic. Some of them have actually quit martial arts because what they'd thought was unachievable magic for years turned out to be something they could do. I often think they were the sort of people who wouldn't really want to join any club that would have them as a member. ;) FWIW Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
Mike(Ecosamurai), could you describe, with as much detail as you can give, how you are approaching/training the rowing exercise and what, specifically, you're developing by training this?
Thanks! |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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I would also recommend trying it as often as possible with a partner or friend holding onto your wrists, their presence and weight gives you lots of feedback as to where you are moving from. I have a student who is >6' tall and about 250-260lbs and I can move him without difficulty when he holds my wrists even when he tries as hard as he possibly can to stop me. If you push through with your arms in any way it becomes impossible. The movement is: in this order: bend the knee> extend the wirsts> bend the knee> withdraw the wirsts. If you move your wrists before your knee your partner will stop you easily. If you do not keep your back straight and head up, your partner will be able to pull you off balance or push you off balance when you withdraw your wrists. If you do not have ki extension and weight underside you will find your partner smashes into your chest as your arms get pushed behind you (sometimes they collide with you anyway but this shouldn't be a problem if you are properly coordinated). Hope that helps. Mike PS - I am now officially unplugging from aikiweb for a while, I hung around as long as I could this week but I've really got to work on some other stuff now. |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Best. Mike |
Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
Thanks, Mike(Ecosamurai) for the description and thanks, Mike Sigman, for chiming in (have a safe and productive trip!).
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Re: Ki, Aiki, Aikido. The 'internal stuff' that never left Aikido
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Mike |
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