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David Orange 11-18-2011 06:25 PM

A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
A summary view based on my experience with Dan, Ark and Rob John and informed by extensive reading of and discussion with Mike Sigman. Speaking for no one but myself and welcoming correction where due.

Power: the ability to be unmoved when an antagonist tries to move you; the ability to move freely though the antagonist tries to impede you; the ability to cause the antagonist to cease and desist, often through loss of his ability to organize himself to gravity.

6-Direction Power: intensive balancing of the self-contradictory directions of the body—front/back, left/right and up/down. Constant measurement of these six influences in all parts of the body is one thing that makes IS development so mentally challenging.

Internal Power: strength derived not from muscle and technique but by balancing the diverse functions of several different internal aspects of self. This generates striking power without "wind-up," momentum or over-commitment of weight.

External Power: a strength based primarily in muscle and skeleton power applied in technique. Hard external power uses speed, momentum and timing through technique. Soft external power uses circular movement and timing for technique.

WHAT IS AIKI

1. The IS view is that aiki is an inner body skill and not one of outward movement.

2. aiki development involves integration of several physical and mental elements of "self," including 1) bones; 2) connective tissue; 3) muscles; 4) ki; 5) mind 6) kokoro. Organization of these elements can lead to great power or, if imbalanced, to self-destruction.

Summarizing: aiki is a body skill which unites several layers of "self" from tangible to intangible, to purely imaginary, in a resonant system tuned not to social or intellectual forces but to the constantly changing and moving forces of Heaven and Earth, Fire and Water, resulting in a body that channels incoming force to the ground and remains free to issue force out of the ground connection, effortlessly to any part of the body to jolt the attacker.

Conclusion: "blending-through-movement aiki" is the omote of aiki—the "face" or visible form of aikido. It's a type of physical effort that does not conflict with the other person's strength but finds the weak side of the physical attack and leads it. But in O Sensei's way, the soft and flowing movement is backed by the deep strength of immovability. This is the ura (unseen aspect) of "blending-through-movement" aiki. It is the ability to remain unmoved. There is an old saying, "You can run but you can't hide." This means that evading someone can only last so long, especially if he is very experienced. One will do well to evade an experienced attacker once. To evade him twice is unthinkable to a budoka. The question is then, "Can you affect him with aiki when he gets his hands on you? So evading is one face of aiki, but the invisible root of aiki is immovability with freedom to move at will, regardless of opposition. If such a person prefers to apply blending movement for technique, it's an entirely different matter than "the same movement" performed by someone who knows only the omote of aiki.

When the attacker touches someone who has attained the physical state of aiki, he will feel that he has touched someone much stronger than himself: more solid, powerful and free to move. In attacking such a person, the attacker suddenly, unconsciously and uncontrollably fears having that mass move against him. He knows that he's over his head in trouble and his body activates desperate unconscious escape responses. Much of aiki technique is just leading his flailing efforts into a fall.

3. What are the body skills of real aiki?

a. to channel incoming force through the body so that the force goes to ground and does not disrupt the posture or position of the aiki person.
b. to keep that incoming force balanced and give it a feeling of firm support even as one moves the point of support.
c. to attack without momentum or over-commitment of balance, producing shocking effects for the attacker
d. to neutralize the attacker's ability to sense gravity and to understand his own movement
e. the opportunity to apply any kind of technique in that aiki moment

4. There is no purely spiritual aiki. It comes from the organization and practice of efforts with the bones, muscles and connective tissue. Real ki emerges when use of bones, muscle and connective tissue is understood and properly practiced in accordance with 6-direction power. This naturally produces much-improved physical strength and health, but that is not the state of aiki. It is the foundation for aiki in the body and without it, only a superficial kind of aiki is possible—notably, "blending-through-movement" can be done, but it has a narrow range of effectiveness if not based on immovability.

5. It Has to Be Felt (IHTBF). The only reason one should have to discuss this matter of aiki development is budo. One would have to be in the presence of budo people even to hear of it and get their opinions. And the only reason to be there would be to see them do the stuff or else show them that you can do it better. The whole key is to step up. Anyone who won't step up to those he questions does not have a budo heart. And budo people won't debate with someone who won't step up. In most cases, if one has the courage to stop pretending to "debate" these questions and step up and challenge the claims, he feels something unlike he has ever felt in aikido class or in most other martial arts.

6. What has to be felt? Aiki must be felt This goes back to 6-direction power. A tree needs continual stress to grow strong. In particular, it needs the wind pushing against it from various directions, constantly sending signals to the roots, causing them to expand and deepen their connection with the earth. If a tree had no wind on it, it wouldn't grow strong. So we first have to feel someone who has internal strength or aiki in order to begin to know what we're looking for. So in IS training, we take on a particular stance and allow our training partners to challenge us in various ways, usually one force at a time, but sometimes several people stressing us from different directions simultaneously. The point, according to Akuzawa is to "tune" the body to constant high affinity to the six-direction self-contradictory forces. Dan's methods seem similar, involving channeling incoming force so that the earth supports it instead of the muscles supporting it. Both guys can blast much heavier people back with very small efforts, no momentum, no over-commitment of balance, no loss of balance when they enter your stance to strike.

7. How can it be developed?
What we've discussed is really difficult for the mind to comprehend since the mind tends to dwell in logic, reason and debate. And IS development requires physical action with mental involvement to monitor and distinguish the actions of the bones, muscle and connective tissue. "Debate" is unworthy to this kind of training. Debate can be nothing better than shadow play compared to the real stuff. There's no time to waste arguing about it. Those who do this will get the results. Those who try to prove themselves by debate will not be taken seriously. No physical results, no credibility.

What the mind uses to monitor the bones, muscles and connective tissue is called ki. This is another distinction the mind must recognize to make progress. First it had to recognize the difference between muscle and connective tissue. This usually takes a long time because the exercises are not explained. But when the student can distinguish connective strength from muscle strength, he can recognize the difference between mind and ki. It has learned that bone, muscle and tendon each have different natures and different kinds of strength. Now it must distinguish between certain functions of "the mind" itself and the operation of the bone/muscle/tendon complex called "the body". Some body awareness functions are not carried out by mind, but by ki. These distinctions can be intellectually considered, but to feel the truth, they must be physically understood and the many different natures of mind, ki, muscles, connective tissue and bone must be properly combined in one self. This harmonization alone produces a fantastically different body than that of a person who lives primarily in intellectual debate. Or someone who lives primarily in muscle. How different does a body feel that carries a constant harmonization of the different natures of bone, muscle, connective tissue, ki and mind?

That's how you get to an integration of bones, muscles, connective tissue, ki and mind. The last level of internal organization is to recognize kokoro (heart) and transfer the center of your organization from the mind to the kokoro, which is the source of ki and therefore the source of the body, therefore the root of the mind. When everything aligns with kokoro and coordinates from kokoro, great indeed will be the freedom of being. True self will be at peace with true self and in harmony with all things.

8. From here, it's important to wring out the potentials from the training methods.

9. Why did so few "GET" it?
Needing to have this explained is why so few people ever got it. People like Dan dug it out from a lot of hard, physical training, as did O Sensei. Mike Sigman studied and discussed, but he worked hard for a long time to develop his understanding and skills. Minoru Akuzawa was very much the same, a ravenous worker of serious physical presence. Our great fortune is that all these experienced and intellectually capable people are dispensing the intricate details of IS development as eagerly as they can.

10. If someone is involved in aikido and has not "felt it" from some of these people, he owes it to his name as a budoka to go and find out if there is something under heaven that he does not already know.

FWIW

David

Janet Rosen 11-18-2011 07:06 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
I would add...the ability to connect with, feel and affect another person's center even while they are not able to feel or affect your's.

David Orange 11-18-2011 07:52 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 297440)
I would add...the ability to connect with, feel and affect another person's center even while they are not able to feel or affect your's.

Very true.

I posted the first post with the idea of laying out the whole system as I see it, being unable actually to do most any of the feats of power. I can do Ark's push-out pretty well, but that's about it for me.

Thanks.

Janet Rosen 11-18-2011 09:29 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
I think most of us starting this journey are feeling how much focused attentive work will be needed. But at least there's a blueprint for those interested and motivated.

graham christian 11-18-2011 11:39 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Nicely put. Thank you.

Regards.G.

Lee Salzman 11-18-2011 11:45 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297442)
Very true.

I posted the first post with the idea of laying out the whole system as I see it, being unable actually to do most any of the feats of power. I can do Ark's push-out pretty well, but that's about it for me.

Thanks.

This is something Dan said in the Ueshiba's Aiki thread that, for its bluntness, made me turn my head, so to speak, and I think sums up the entire thing really nicely:

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 297298)
Hello Graham
I always call it IP/aiki. Internal power or strength is created from a balance of ki in yourself. From there you create aiki between you and someone else.
A quick study of that is Ueshiba's discussion of Heaven/earth/man. Where he notes that after you can manifest the energy between heaven and earth staning on the golden bridge do you release the mountain echo.
This is a well known concept and has to do with a balance of opposites and what it does to your body to remove slack and be full and stand suspended, thus any force-in "echos" back-out. Kuzushi on contact that can then be manipulated.

I am not much for tricks. Once you know how these things work there are many ways to display them. Some prefer to use power displays. I occasionally do that too. But power displays while profound and exceptional (and Ark is very good) are not where I am at. I prefer a softer approach-don't show them your power and dissolve their strength while entering in. Ark can do more than those videos show. We are only discussing what he chose to show in a particular video.


gregstec 11-19-2011 07:38 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 297448)
Nicely put. Thank you.

Regards.G.

Interesting, Graham, if you are on-board with what Dave has placed up here on Aiki and IS/IP, why all the push back to Dan and others on their positions - it really is pretty much the same as what Dave wrote.

Greg

David Orange 11-19-2011 08:11 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 297444)
... at least there's a blueprint for those interested and motivated.

If you see one of those, let me know....:)

I did want to lay out something like that, an overview, but I'm not sure how his relates to what Dan says or even what Ark says.

It did occur to me how different it would make the body to have full integration of all the major body/mind systems, all working properly and each doing the part it does best--no use of muscle when "intrinsic" strength is what's needed. No use of mind to try to understand what ki knows directly...

If all the systems are no working properly to begin with and they're being used improperly, it's like a house without good plumbing and electricity. You can live in it if you make some strange adjustments to your sense of dignity.

But put all the power and plumbing and insulation and curtains and blinds together and use it properly, and you have a very dignified place to live. And in a place like that, your mind can settle to its true dignity, in kokoro.

But my real purpose here is to get those who know to correct my outline and help me see better the potentials of such a harmonized body and mind, how better to achieve it and use it in effective living.

Interesting to know you've gotten involved in the training. That's great!

David

David Orange 11-19-2011 08:14 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote: (Post 297449)
This is something Dan said in the Ueshiba's Aiki thread that, for its bluntness, made me turn my head, so to speak, and I think sums up the entire thing really nicely:

Release the mountain echo...

Thanks.

David

graham christian 11-19-2011 08:59 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 297468)
Interesting, Graham, if you are on-board with what Dave has placed up here on Aiki and IS/IP, why all the push back to Dan and others on their positions - it really is pretty much the same as what Dave wrote.

Greg

It's a good explanation. The subject is IS/IP. It's well put but that doesn't mean I agree with it as Aikido Aiki.

Regards.G.

gregstec 11-19-2011 10:28 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 297479)
It's a good explanation. The subject is IS/IP. It's well put but that doesn't mean I agree with it as Aikido Aiki.

Regards.G.

Fair enough - but the word Aikido is in the title subject as well :)

Greg

Lee Salzman 11-19-2011 10:42 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297473)
Release the mountain echo...

Thanks.

David

Where's the in-yo, though? :D

David Orange 11-19-2011 10:49 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote: (Post 297449)
This is something Dan said in the Ueshiba's Aiki thread that, for its bluntness, made me turn my head, so to speak, and I think sums up the entire thing really nicely:

When I think of Dan's aiki, I think of him spreading his arms as a generous gesture of "sharing everything" (meaning he's about to blast your ribs).:D

But in fact, I get a tremendous sense of "giving" from him.

And I get the same, in different tones, from Mike, Ark and Rob. It's about sharing something really worthy with someone who will appreciate it. And that's always a blast.

Yes, what they're doing resembles various exercises from tai chi and yoga. But for the decades I've spent doing those kinds of exercises, no one has shown me how they work until I argued it down with Mike Sigman on another forum. Then I ran into Rob and Aunkai, then Dan.

I put some pretty bad insults on Mike and Rob before I was able to meet Rob at an Aunkai seminar. I never got to meet Mike Sigman, so far.

But for some reason, I always had a good rapport with Dan on the same subjects. And when I met him, he was really able to do what he said. He let me model it, but there was too much for me to absorb...I need to go to Hawaii and wait for him to come back there!

Another thing I wanted to mention is that once the body mind system is harmonized on the levels I described, IS training requires tuning the harmonized system to the six-direction self-contradictory forces. I know I mentioned that above, but that was on the level of waking the ki/mind to the multiple levels of "body". The tuning happens even then, but it steps up tremendously once there is a fully integrated and harmonized body/mind seeking to reach that orientation. And that is done by the same methods as above, the exercises that teach us to rely on the intrinsic strength and make us able to distinguish ki from mind.

I, unfortunately, have not managed to reach such a level. I'm only describing what I have glimpsed, looking for deeper clues from those who can provide them.

I'm also willing to share what little I know, for free, with anyone who is interested, regardless of rank or affiliation. You just have to come to me. I can't travel beyond the borders of Jefferson county without gas money and if you've got that much, you should save it up for Dan.

Best to all and thanks.

David

David Orange 11-19-2011 11:05 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote: (Post 297485)
Where's the in-yo, though? :D

I was thinking of it as the Heaven and Earth powers, which I think are the same as fire and water?

Or am I more confused than I had anticipated?

Alas...

David Orange 11-19-2011 11:14 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297486)
I'm also willing to share what little I know, for free, with anyone who is interested, regardless of rank or affiliation. You just have to come to me. I can't travel beyond the borders of Jefferson county without gas money and if you've got that much, you should save it up for Dan.

Of course, I will travel to meet with Dan, Mike or Ark or host any of them in my home and pay to attend their seminars. Don't get me wrong.

And let me give more credit where it is really due, the aforementioned but unnamed student of Mike Sigman (who has also trained a lot with Ark, but who showed me the basics of Mike's concepts): Jang Choe, of Atlanta. He not only allowed us to visit and train with him in Atlanta, but he came to Birmingham many times at his own expense to show us what he was learning. I guess he was the organizer of Ark's visit to Atlanta a couple of years ago. Jang really developed tremendously over the couple of years I was meeting with him. He's an excellent teacher as well as a great training partner.

So I'm not putting myself out there as an expert on the matter or someone you would pay to come to you, just offering to show the general outlines to those who are interested in the ancient subject.

David

Chris Li 11-19-2011 11:21 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297486)
But for some reason, I always had a good rapport with Dan on the same subjects. And when I met him, he was really able to do what he said. He let me model it, but there was too much for me to absorb...I need to go to Hawaii and wait for him to come back there!

March 2012 - see you there :) .

Best,

Chris

Lee Salzman 11-19-2011 11:31 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297488)
I was thinking of it as the Heaven and Earth powers, which I think are the same as fire and water?

Or am I more confused than I had anticipated?

Alas...

I think we're all confused when we try to put these things in specific terms. :( So I was hoping you knew what in-yo was well enough that you could tell me. :p

Far as I have so far puzzled out in reverse, rather noticing something in my own training and then trying to connect it back to what I've seen, it seems to refer, grossly, one side supports the other, and vice versa, for sufficiently vague definition of side. The 6-directions seem to be a form of that in a artificially linear sense along 3 different axes, while it seems to operate far more profoundly in the rotational sense with linear directions building off of it, like one side of the pelvis going one way driving the other side the other way. In writing it seems sorta quaint, but when each part of the body is doing it to each other, it imparts a really odd feeling to movement, and it seems like it fits the bill for in-yo.

phitruong 11-19-2011 05:12 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
david, where is the dantien/hara movement comes into play? would have thought it one of the central tenet of IS.

David Orange 11-19-2011 05:36 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 297513)
david, where is the dantien/hara movement comes into play? would have thought it one of the central tenet of IS.

It is, isn't it? I left it out because I don't understand it.
So that's something I need to figure out.

Thanks for the reminder.

David

Howard Popkin 11-19-2011 06:46 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
That's where you put the tuna :)

graham christian 11-19-2011 08:22 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 297484)
Fair enough - but the word Aikido is in the title subject as well :)

Greg

In the beginning was the WORD, and the word was BU!!! Ha, ha.

Regards.G.

gregstec 11-19-2011 08:42 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 297523)
In the beginning was the WORD, and the word was BU!!! Ha, ha.

Regards.G.

Ok, you are getting whacky on me again - time to say good night :D

David Orange 11-20-2011 02:19 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 297490)
March 2012 - see you there :) .

How I wish. But the future is young...if not this time...?

Thanks!

David

David Orange 11-20-2011 02:42 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 297513)
david, where is the dantien/hara movement comes into play? would have thought it one of the central tenet of IS.

Well, I've worked with that for decades and I'm just getting to actually feel the real connections, much less use them.

You gotcher basic idea of "the waist" directs the force that moves from the soles of the feet to the tips of the fingers. And in aikido, it's a byword that you move from "the center" and so on.

I think the whole thing about the hara being "the seat of the soul" is because all the feelings of the body and all the emotions of the mind congregate there. The fascia carries the ki and emotion is very close to ki. That's why emotion of the mind is so influential in the stomach. The stomach is full of fascia, wrapping all the organs, separating them, supporting them, supporting all those muscles in the abdomen and connecting to the arms, legs and neck...Bad emotions go right to the stomach and cause the fascia of that whole area to do weird things. "My stomach is tied in knots" or "I have butterflies in my stomach".

Also, this area retains old emotions by freezing the fascia into a particular set of inner tensions that are experienced as "natural" for the individual. It affects how they walk, stand and sit. It's why you can recognize an individual by his movement. And that also affects the feelings in your own dantien, doesn't it? When you see someone moving worse or better than yourself?

So I think the first thing is to quell the torment of the mind. And that can begin by letting the mind concentrate on the dantien and make it interesting by putting the body in weird positions that stress the dantien in various ways through the weight of the arms and legs.

And the breath helps loosen the tightness of the abdomen and the fearful, avoiding emotions that would hold it hostage by "protecting" it. And letting the abdominal fascia loosen up, freeing the emotions, deepening the breath, lets the ki move freely. And then the mind can be involved with the dantien and the ki. Then you can harmonize the bones, muscles and fascia with the ki, mind and kokoro.

After that, you can learn methods of really coordinating the body through dantien. So I hear.

Actually, recently, I was doing something from Aunkai, the tenchi posture, with the palms up, straight arms up beside the head, fingertips facing outward.

It's always been hard for me to really straighten my hands and fingers like that, and I did some things wriggling my fingers individually, and with each finger, I could feel it all the way along my arms and into the abdomen, which let me release certain tensions in my abdomen, meaning my spine popped and I took a good, long, deep breath and suddenly felt much better than just a moment before.

A few minutes of that really did me a lot of good and I came away with a little more to think about concerning coordination of the body through dantien.

Please help, if you have any clues...

Best to you.

David

David Orange 11-20-2011 02:44 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Howard Popkin wrote: (Post 297517)
That's where you put the tuna :)

...a deep thought...from the deep.:D

So do you do your tuna as sashimi?

Love that maguro!

David

graham christian 11-20-2011 06:18 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297559)
Well, I've worked with that for decades and I'm just getting to actually feel the real connections, much less use them.

You gotcher basic idea of "the waist" directs the force that moves from the soles of the feet to the tips of the fingers. And in aikido, it's a byword that you move from "the center" and so on.

I think the whole thing about the hara being "the seat of the soul" is because all the feelings of the body and all the emotions of the mind congregate there. The fascia carries the ki and emotion is very close to ki. That's why emotion of the mind is so influential in the stomach. The stomach is full of fascia, wrapping all the organs, separating them, supporting them, supporting all those muscles in the abdomen and connecting to the arms, legs and neck...Bad emotions go right to the stomach and cause the fascia of that whole area to do weird things. "My stomach is tied in knots" or "I have butterflies in my stomach".

Also, this area retains old emotions by freezing the fascia into a particular set of inner tensions that are experienced as "natural" for the individual. It affects how they walk, stand and sit. It's why you can recognize an individual by his movement. And that also affects the feelings in your own dantien, doesn't it? When you see someone moving worse or better than yourself?

So I think the first thing is to quell the torment of the mind. And that can begin by letting the mind concentrate on the dantien and make it interesting by putting the body in weird positions that stress the dantien in various ways through the weight of the arms and legs.

And the breath helps loosen the tightness of the abdomen and the fearful, avoiding emotions that would hold it hostage by "protecting" it. And letting the abdominal fascia loosen up, freeing the emotions, deepening the breath, lets the ki move freely. And then the mind can be involved with the dantien and the ki. Then you can harmonize the bones, muscles and fascia with the ki, mind and kokoro.

After that, you can learn methods of really coordinating the body through dantien. So I hear.

Actually, recently, I was doing something from Aunkai, the tenchi posture, with the palms up, straight arms up beside the head, fingertips facing outward.

It's always been hard for me to really straighten my hands and fingers like that, and I did some things wriggling my fingers individually, and with each finger, I could feel it all the way along my arms and into the abdomen, which let me release certain tensions in my abdomen, meaning my spine popped and I took a good, long, deep breath and suddenly felt much better than just a moment before.

A few minutes of that really did me a lot of good and I came away with a little more to think about concerning coordination of the body through dantien.

Please help, if you have any clues...

Best to you.

David

Hi David. I found this post interesting especially the view of mind and emotions and effects. Ilike the colloquial saying that the west has the mind as in the brain whilst the eastern view is that the mind is in the stomach.

Remember though that a lot of that butterflies in the stomach and other feelings can be associated with the vagus nerve also. That being said their are also other areas of the body where emotions get stuck and cause the effects you refer to.

I see you describe them as causing the fascia to go into a set of tensions. No doubt this is so in my view even though I don't use such terminology myself. This in turn affects the natural Ki flow in the body so I agree with you there also. Thus handling the troubled mind. All good.

In regards to your last question would you not say that wriggling your fingers was a method of getting rid of the tension? On doing this you felt what you described. Now I take it your method shows to you a releasing of tension throughout the connected fascia?

Well I would say what you are doing is what I would call true relaxation and when you do such you become more aware of center etc. No more significance than that. The more you do it the better you get. So I don't see you need more help on that point except more practice. aian other words, it's all good, ha ha.

Just my two cents as an outsider.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen 11-20-2011 09:24 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 297589)
Well I would say what you are doing is what I would call true relaxation and when you do such you become more aware of center etc. No more significance than that. The more you do it the better you get.

Graham, as someone who is doing this training, I must respectfully disagree.
Where I agree is that a specific form of relaxation is key to doing martial arts - of course, this is not new, it's part and parcel of judo's "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" and presumably predates that - the idea of only engaging what needs to be engaged.
However, there is something much more active being done. What is being described is literally learning to isolate and work with specific body structures that are not those most of us have been aware of feeling much less being able to engage.

DH 11-20-2011 11:14 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 297607)
Graham, as someone who is doing this training, I must respectfully disagree.
Where I agree is that a specific form of relaxation is key to doing martial arts - of course, this is not new, it's part and parcel of judo's "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" and presumably predates that - the idea of only engaging what needs to be engaged.
However, there is something much more active being done. What is being described is literally learning to isolate and work with specific body structures that are not those most of us have been aware of feeling much less being able to engage.

"Maximum efficiency with minimum effort" will not help.
"Knowing" Anatomy trains will not help.
It's not just knowing what to use. It isn't an exercise.
It knowing how to move what.
Intent is everything. You can know every single thing, but without intent...you're no good. It's all for not. So good luck putting the pieces together.
Motion in stillness training an absolute.
Union of opposites a requirement in specific ways.
Whole body movement, a trained and specific thing.
How to move the body in specific accurate ways, long before it becomes...natural.

No matter how hard they try
No matter what they think they know
Aikido..ka will never find it on their own or through any Japanese teacher I have seen, watched or read. Their teaching model for this work is a disaster. In the hands of the japanese ...this is lost.

And of those who are training it? They will forever rule those who do not know.
In time, everyone will turn to them and seek them out.
I have never met the person, who once they felt it and you started to show them how to do it...did not want it. As every...single...Shihan....has said to me
I wish I had met you thirty years ago.
The comedy is them feeling this...after...they have read all of the nonsense written on aikiweb speaking against it. They laugh harder than I do. And none of them, not one, has ever told me that their own Japanese Shihan can touch it. They all know it. So does most everyone else who is just too damn connected and afraid to say it.
As Gleason says...
"We should be shouting this from the roof tops! I don't care who knows!"
Or
"It's graduate school for teachers."
Do I really want to argue with some Nidan ro Sandan being all defensive about something they cannot grasp?
For this reason I no longer debate how to do this on the internet. Never again. It's not worth making enemies with words. They're happy, so let them go do their own thing. In time, when they touch you in person, there continues to be nothing they can do to stop you.
Besides, every art needs someone to throw around and wonder... "What just happened?"
You can't fix everyone. Hence the reason it was always kept closed and taught to only a few. It's going to be interesting to see who pulls it together and gets somewhere with it.
All the Best
Dan

David Orange 11-20-2011 11:19 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
I just want to go to Hawaii and wait for your seminar in March!

David

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 297611)
"Maximum efficiency with minimum effort" will not help.
"Knowing" Anatomy trains will not help.
It's not just knowing what to use. It isn't an exercise.
It knowing how to move what.
Intent is everything
Motion in stillness training an absolute
Union of opposites a requirement in specific ways
Whole body movement, a trained and specific thing.
How to move the body in specific accurate ways, long before it becomes...natural.

No matter how hard they try
No matter what they think they know
Aikido..ka will never find it on their own or through any Japanese teacher I have seen, watched or read. Their teaching model for this work is a disaster. In the hands of the japanese ...this is lost.

And of those who are training it? They will forever rule those who do not know.
In time, everyone will turn to them and seek them out.
I have never met the person, who once they felt it and you started to show them how to do it...did not want it. As every...single...Shihan....has said to me
I wish I had met you thirty years ago.
The comedy is them feeling this...after...they have read all of the nonsense written on aikiweb speaking against it. They laugh harder than I do. And none of them, not one, has ever told me that their own Japanese Shihan can touch it. They all know it. So does most everyone else who is just too damn connected and afraid to say it.
As Gleason says...
"We should be shouting this from the roof tops! I don't care who knows!"
Then you listen to some little Nidan being all defensive.
For this reason I no longer debate how to do this on the internet. Never again. It's not worth making enemies with words, when in person, there continues to be nothing they can do to stop you.
Besides, every art needs canon fodder to throw around and wonder... "What just happened?"
You can't fix everyone. Hence the reason it was always kept closed and taught to only a few. It's going to be interesting to see who pulls it together and gets somewhere with it.
All the Best
Dan


DH 11-20-2011 11:29 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
I am willing to come to Atlanta dude!! Late Jan or mid Feb
Let's plan.
Dan

DH 11-20-2011 11:31 PM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Janet
I had sooo much fun meeting you!! What a doll. Who knew you were so funny too!
Maybe a repeat in the spring?
I can't wait to attack Rick and Bill and such. Maybe I will get to attack Saotome and Ikeda before hand!!
Imagine that?
I would die laughing at myself first
Dan

David Orange 11-21-2011 12:00 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 297614)
I am willing to come to Atlanta dude!! Late Jan or mid Feb
Let's plan.
Dan

One of these days, we'll have enough interested people in Birmingham that you could come here.

I can probably still get the same guys for Atlanta, though. They were all interested--and Phi Truong would probably come.

It'd be cool. I just have to be at the mochi-making ceremony for my son's Saturday school in January. Maybe I can get enough points from that to make it to Atlanta in February!

Best to you.

David

BWells 11-21-2011 12:03 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Well Rick will certainly welcome you back Dan, and look forward to being attacked. He doesn't do half bad for a 75 year old does he:) . We are trying to incorporate what you taught into our classes but boy you gave us a lot. It's clear we need a refresher even after only a week. And Janet your are missed and totally welcome to drop by ANY time!!!!

thanks for the training
Bruce

Janet Rosen 11-21-2011 12:26 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 297615)
Janet
I had sooo much fun meeting you!! What a doll. Who knew you were so funny too!
Maybe a repeat in the spring?
I can't wait to attack Rick and Bill and such. Maybe I will get to attack Saotome and Ikeda before hand!!
Imagine that?
I would die laughing at myself first
Dan

Dan, the pleasure was mine! As you saw, I'm not necessarily very talented at this m.a. stuff but damn I love it, it brings me immense joy and yeah I'm willing to make a fool of myself in public and keep plugging away.
Whenever I think I'm taking myself too seriously I remember a priceless moment from the 60s in which on a stage Pete Seeger turns to Arlo Guthrie and deadpans "but folk-singing is serious business" bringing down the house, as well as Arlo...the doing of the work, the learning, is hard enough but no reason to approach it ponderously, heavy-hearted.
Practicing daily and still not feeling things enough to even include all of the few exercises I aim to focus on (trying not to bite off more than can be somewhat successfully chewed as it were).

Janet Rosen 11-21-2011 12:30 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Bruce Wells wrote: (Post 297618)
Well Rick will certainly welcome you back Dan, and look forward to being attacked. He doesn't do half bad for a 75 year old does he:) . We are trying to incorporate what you taught into our classes but boy you gave us a lot. It's clear we need a refresher even after only a week. And Janet your are missed and totally welcome to drop by ANY time!!!!

thanks for the training
Bruce

Bruce I'd be happy to drop in more casually to train, but it's awfully had to justify tanks o'gas and a five hour round trip on a regular basis, especially when so many things already get not-done or put off to do later....give Rick a big hello from me!

Toby Threadgill 11-21-2011 01:14 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 297440)
I would add...the ability to connect with, feel and affect another person's center even while they are not able to feel or affect your's.

God bless you Janet. wink wink....

Toby Threadgill/TSYR

Janet Rosen 11-21-2011 01:24 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Toby Threadgill wrote: (Post 297624)
God bless you Janet. wink wink....

Toby Threadgill/TSYR

:-)
You know I can't actually do this stuff....but...I DID demonstrate getting Dan to blush, which is just a sneaky old budobabe way of taking somebody's center...:D

Mark Freeman 11-21-2011 04:36 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 297611)
Intent is everything. .

Motion in stillness

I've only clipped the above 2 quotes from Dan's post as they are fundamental to the fun that I am having with my aikido practice at the moment. I'll explain...

I have long been an adhearant to the 'Intent' is everything mantra. My first aikido teacher was fairly physically disabled. Polio as a child had left him with legs that had virtually no muscle. So he effectively was balancing on two sticks with a joint in the middle (his ankles had been surgically fused). He was totally committed to using mind/ki/intent as a way of power, as he didn't really have much alternative choice. His mobility was a bit of a head scratcher for the medical profession, some of them were convinced that he should not be walking at all. He had a very powerful mind, and his aikido was driven by it.

Consequently, my focus in my practice and subsequent teaching, has always had a stong bias towards the mind and what it is doing at any given point in the process. And as the 'style' of aikido I fell into is heavily Tohei influenced, the co-ordination of mind and body has been my primary reason for continued study. So relaxation and extending the mind have always been a part of what I do.

However, extending the mind, or even less helpfully 'extending ki' are pretty vague descriptions of what is really happening. It is the students job to figure it out for themselves, understand what is going on and then be able to pass on that knowledge to others.

On the recent seminar that Dan gave in the UK, the point that made the most impact for me, was the solo standing exercises, in which the mind directs movement, but all in stillness. I recognised on a deep level at that moment, that this was a valuable practice for me, and it had not been part of my aikido practice up till now.

So I have been playing with this on a daily basis, (not easy for an undisciplined soul like me) and going to my normal aikido classes and teaching as normal. Only now, I have a whole new set of things going on in my mind/body, that is allowing me to create and use new exercises to help my students along the difficult path of improvement.

The fun I am having now, is getting uke to come and grab, and before they get to physical contact I have set up an 'intent' which is going in a particular direction (up,down, spiral, whatever), and when they make contact, watching the surprised look on their faces as they start to move in 'my' predetermined direction of choice. I could do this sort of thing before working with Dan, but now it all makes so much more sense, I have more of an understanding of why it is working. I also relied more on some bodily movement. Now I am revelling in the "motion in stillness" -Thanks Dan:)

I steered clear of the bizzare Ueshiba's aiki thread, I was surprised Jun let it run on for so long. I do freely admit though, that when I first came onto aikiweb, I was sceptical and distrustful of both Dan and Mike. I wasn't as vocal about it as KM, but still, I had the 'certainty' of my knowledge and experience with an exceptional teacher. But curiosity overcame arrogance, and a meeting with both men, has left me an even more enthusiastic student of the aiki arts. I don't really care which way aiki-do/ai-ki-do is spliced up. I just want to improve what I do, which I am doing.

Thanks David for starting this interesting thread, let's hope the discussions can stay on deepening understanding, rather than politics and personalities (having said that Dan is a fun guy to train with:) ).

regards,

Mark

Chris Knight 11-21-2011 05:57 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

Now I am revelling in the "motion in stillness
Hi Mark, this sums up my understanding so far quite well....Its trying to understand the concept that this can be attained, and train the body thus...

Unfortunately I cant afford a teacher so am plugging away at self tuition on this, gleaning as much information as I can on the way... My teachers see Dan as often as possible in the UK so in time, I'm hoping they will help pass this information down to me, as we slowly incorporate this into our Aikido training.

The annoying part is for me that self tuition can be a pretty dangerous and damaging business in itself as specific details can probably frequently be missed.

However, the wife and children come first, and hopefully I will mange to meet up the top exponents further down the line

I've read quite a few chinese texts which seem to correlate with the stillness and intent training so I'm hoping I'm travelling in the same direction as everyone else!! :D

chillzATL 11-21-2011 08:12 AM

Re: A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 297617)
One of these days, we'll have enough interested people in Birmingham that you could come here.

I can probably still get the same guys for Atlanta, though. They were all interested--and Phi Truong would probably come.

It'd be cool. I just have to be at the mochi-making ceremony for my son's Saturday school in January. Maybe I can get enough points from that to make it to Atlanta in February!

Best to you.

David

You guys should totally plan something! :)


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