Suwari Waza
I'm sure this has been addressed before but I would appreciate any thoughts on the subject. I'm far from testing for my 4th Kyu but it will come with continued practice. Suwari waza is tough on the knees.
Advice? |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Practice sitting in seiza. You might want to practice squatting also, that seems like it has helped me. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Ikeda Sensei's video/DVD on suwari waza (titled "Za") is a good resource. Matt |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
For me suwari waza is a good learning and conditioning tool. By this I mean at the absolute top level it encourages hip movement that when applied when standing makes technique better / cleaner and it is great for building core strength IMHO. But we, in the western world, do not kneel much beyond primary school so kneeling and moving around with grace it can be a big ask...
I don't mind little and often but honestly can not survive more than twenty minutes without my knees screaming out in discomfort. Besides hakama can be an expensive bit of kit and sliding and pivoting on a canvas covered mat wrecks the fabric at the knees :) |
Re: Suwari Waza
Try to spend some time each day just sitting in seiza. back straight, good posture. As a "westerner" who didn't grow up using seiza as a regular seated posture, it will never be as comfortable for you (me too) as someone who, growing up in Japan, has lived it in his/her culture. I understand that modern Japan sees seiza less frequently used - I wonder if that's causing "westernization" of their knees?...
Hakama do cost - if you get the really fancy indigo-dyed cotton hakama, you'll wear through the knees fairly quickly. If you get the less expensive "Techron" (whatever that is) from, say, Tozando, they'll last longer, dye won't run, and you can even buy hakama with relatively permanent pleats. Wearing hakama for suwari-waza makes it easier on your knees because the gi pants and the hakama material tend to slip against each other more easily than your knees (especially when sweaty) and cotton pants slip over the material of the mats. I found that when in dojo that let/required us to wear hakama my knees fared better. And yes, when the shihan decides to go on a 20 minute rant about how yudansha are expected to protect partners and mudansha and to pass on the best aikido we can, the knees HURT and the legs don't work that well for a few moments after getting back up. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
For example, making school children sit in seiza used to be a popular form of corporeal punishment. Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Different people's legs grow differently - I know plenty of Westerners who have long quads and hamstrings, small calves, and sufficiently flexible ankles to sit in seiza with no problem, even if they don't do it much until they are adults. But I have never heard from a Japanese person who actually felt intense pain sitting in seiza who had not had an injury. |
Re: Suwari Waza
My best advice for suwari waza is: don't do it. It's just bad for your knees and body. It's one of those things we do because we're told to do it (aka "tradition"), but other than "tempering the spirit through physical punishment" there is little to no martial benefit from training suwari waza that cannot be achieved standing. Mind you, I did a lot of suwariwaza in aikido... I'm just doing less and less of it these days as I try to avoid destroying my body like so many aikido veterans have.
If you must practice suwariwaza, some bits of advice: Keep posture straight focusing balance from the spine rather than being double weighted and shift weight from knee to knee. This will relieve pressure from the knees as you move as the weight is better distributed and controlled. Wear knee pads so knees don't grind too hard on the floor (not too thick ones as they might prop your posture back). Keep everything connected; activate legs and arms connected to center, so when you move everything moves together. Do not move from the hips, move from the center in a connected manner. Connected legs (and arms) make you stronger and more efficient, so you don't tax individual body parts as much while moving. If you know how, spiraling and opening/closing the legs instead of just flexing would make you even stronger and more efficient. Keep eyes up (don't look down on the floor in front of you). This will help you keep good posture. Remain "active", as you move in suwari waza; do not let your hips go up and down too much as you walk, instead maintain hips at the same horizontal level as much as possible. (The same applies to tachi-waza btw: don't let the hips go up and down as you move.) Going from rest (letting the butt rest on or near the heels) then raising to a full step puts a lot of stress on the muscles and knees. Even if you're just sitting seiza, don't slouch or let the weight rest, remain "active" in a "ready" position; think of the iai-goshi posture which is a combative "ready" position. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Darn good advice!
I even do my kokyudosa crosslegged nowadays (talk about learning the difference between hips and center...) I will add: even more helpful than kneepads is adding additional padding to the dogi pants. I did a how to column on this in the Mirror many years ago - basically you make a couple of huge rectangular patches of cotton fabric to affix inside the pants legs and quilt into them a slightly smaller rectangle of Pellon Fleece. You position it just under where your knees are - you will notice that your pants legs slide up as you kneel so the padding really is needed lower than your knee when you are standing. I did this back in the days when I still had good knees and it was wonderful for suwariwaza (and also awkward landings from ikkyo) - like pivoting on a potholder! Quote:
|
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
The young guys on smooth mats introduced a lot more movement than existed previously. If you look at Daito-ryu and other traditional schools there was very little of the moving around on your knees that you see in Aikido today. Yasuo Kobayashi used to say that he was the one who introduced shikko as an exercise - in the 1950's. People today are paying the price with their knees. Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
|
Re: Suwari Waza
Hi all,
I find that if I practice suwari waza sparingly that it can help open my hips and is great at teaching you to move your whole body from center at once....that said, I don't like doing a lot of it and I've yet to run into some who says they enjoy it and/or has done it intensely for years without injury. It's a risky practice but most things are one way or another. Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for you in your aikido "career".... Cheers, Russ |
Re: Suwari Waza
I have never seen injuries as a result yet have seen how easily damage can be done to the knees by those who don't do it properly.
There are no doubt reasons why and how it can damage the knees due mainly to not being used to using them in such a way and people like carpet fitters are a good example of those who after a while get knee trouble. However, we are talking Aikido and from my view it's learning how to do it properly that is the main protection far and above all other 'theories'. Firstly I would say it is well worth doing and much is learned from so doing which otherwise would be missed. Second would be a matter of when? The simple answer is when the person is ready and not before. Thirdly I would say approach is the key. Approach meaning prior things to be in place and practiced first in order to get full benefit and freedom of movement and thus no damaging effect on the knees. Just doing kokyudosa would be pre sawariwaza as an example and is a good way of getting the knees and feet used to such positioning as well as just sitting seiza for small periods and extending them. Then in order to even attempt suwariwaza I personally would have to see the student comfortably doing taisabakI 180% back and forth continuously at ease.....from centre., Until a person can do this...from centre....then they will damge their knees if made to do lots of suwariwaza. So basically centre protects the knees is my motto. Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
AFAIK samurai would never sit in seiza with their long swords in their belts, it would instead be placed on the side or disallowed while inside certain places and only able to carry their wakizashi (short sword).
|
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
When it comes to etiquette and the sword even the placement was based on the fact of not being able to take it as if drawing it. Once again...a reason for. If you have reality on drawing a sword from the knees then you will see it's no different from standing. That's why it's safer and indeed vital for a samurai to sit so in readiness. That fella in lone wolf and cub demonstrated it quite well. Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
If you watch Ueshiba in 1935, or even when he was older, he actually doesn't cover all that much ground on his knees. Also, if you've done it, there's a big difference between moving on your knees on plain tatami (which is what everybody used to have) and the modern canvas or vinyl covered versions. Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
In the old 1935 film of Ueshiba I would say he covers quite a lot of ground quite freely but obviously the gait is not as wide as could be if standing but there again doesn't need to be, especially when done by him. Of course today the mats are much softer and that's all good as far as I'm concerned but perspective is the key once again. The old days of Japan didn't have cushion filled mats and trained specifically for terrain. Tatami actually would be harder than most grassy terrain. But I did find it interesting once when reading how the guards of the shogun or daimyo etc. indoors trained in open hand moving from the knees as part of their job. As I tried to explain in my earlier post the secret is moving from centre, turning around centre etc. This is what protects the knees. When done properly all 'weight' goes to centre and thus none is left on the knees. Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
If I look around at the various koryu or curriculum and methods of practice the many times I will just shake my head unfortunately. Even whilst standing I find many can't turn under pressure and thus to me don't understand some basic motion principles. There is actually a barrier to go through in order to freely do so, a mental barrier. Plus in my experience an incomplete understanding on the whole of the power of basic motions of aikido irrespective of technique. (taisabaki being one such) Anyway, if doing suwariwaza it starts off nice and slow and technique by technique but eventually is or can be no different to multiple attacks from standing and if I may say so that when 'in the zone' so to speak it becomes easier than when standing, a strange yet illuminating experience. Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Are his knees bad because suwari waza is inherently destructive, even in small amounts, or are his knees bad because of the extreme approach he took to training? Honestly, I don't know... I never did suwari waza for long periods of time at once, unlike the 45 minutes solid of suwari waza that Ikeda Sensei did in a Saturday morning class at a seminar over 20 years ago. My personal experience was that the video/DVD was a good source of a range of practices that I could use - for 5 minutes or so at a time - to focus on and improve various aspects of my suwari waza. Matt PS - For the purpose of complete clarity, I had to stop doing suwari waza about 8 to 10 years ago not because it had damaged my knees but because I have muscular dystrophy and the muscle deterioration had reached the point where I couldn't move properly anymore. At that point, doing suwari waza meant that I was moving wrong and definitely NOT doing my knees any good. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Interesting thread.
Suwari waza doesn't feature in our syllabus, thankfully. Looking at some of our seniors in their 60s and 70s with serious knee issues I can understand why. We do some occasionally hanmi handachi (birthday beastings). The long term state of my knees (which weren't great before I started) is the only potential downside I see with Aikido. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
|
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Walter |
Re: Suwari Waza
i am thinking we should change the "killing knee practice" to the practice of doing it sitting on an office chair with rollers. now a day, we sit more than kneeling, so the chance that we get attack while sitting in a chair is much higher. so if we switch to practice on chair with rollers or without rollers, then we can kill two birds with a shotgun so to speak. for example, if you sit in a meeting room and your meeting mate reach across you to grab the last donut, you should be able to intercept the grab, took away the donut, put your office mate into a kotegaeshi, and proceed to eat the donut.
wonder what the japanese term for practice on office chair. :D |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
I'm sure all those iai schools have their reasons for training drawing from seiza. Emphasis on training, as opposed to actually representing an actual situation that occurred (as in samurai in seiza with their katana still in their obi). It's not all from seiza though. There are iai schools with a sizable standing iai curriculum. Also, schools like Katori Shinto ryu have iai but none from seiza afaik. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Anyhoo... seiza/shikko/hanmi-handachi/etc are quite popular in Aikikai aikido as a way to train posture, hip strength, and to develop body movement. I try to limit the amount of it that I do largely because my knees have had a beating over the years - but after 17 years of aikido I don't recall my knees being worse than at the start - the skin was tougher, but no worse in terms of ligament, tendon, and cartilage... (and I'm not tiny - been knocking around 220 lb/100 kg for the last 10 years - not proud of that, but...) |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, though, but: This is not seiza, and it is not even the iai-goshi posture some iaido schools practice, this is hiza. But I wouldn't give anybody crap for calling this kneeling. Iaido made inroads into the west before pioneering Western practitioners got into koryu and spread knowledge to non-Japanese language communities, and there was this very scathing rebuttal of claims by iaido practitioners to be practicing "authentic samurai swordsmanship" that reverberates a bit to this day. A warrior sitting in seiza with a long sword is not a real combat situation, seiza is not a combative posture, iai goshi (one leg under the butt, one out to the side) is not a combative posture, Zen was not popular among warriors until there wasn't much war, the Edo period saw a widespread, general degredation of combat skill and efficacy of training methods and arts founded in that period are "flowery swordplay," etc. I figure it's just because the needs of society changed and the warrior culture changed with them. At some point these guys decided they should spend a lot of time practicing drawing their swords from seiza as a way of organizing and developing their spirit. To get back somewhat to the original thread...in iaido there is not as much moving around in seiza as in Aikido suwariwaza. Nor koryu for that matter. But there are a lot of movements and postures that would be considered orthopedically verboten these days. Lots of moving into and out of very low postures with knee advanced way out past the toes, lots of bending the knees to lower the center, while keeping the back very straight. Sitting with the butt completely on one or both heels, and then exploding to a standing position. I generally maintain the view that koryu arts expected a degree of flexibility and strength in the legs that seems much less common in modern non-Japanese than in modern Japanese. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
|
Re: Suwari Waza
Sosuishi-ryu (so the video says) techniques applied from seated position:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeki2y-r-Dc As others have noted about these old schools, not much moving around on the knees compared to today's aikido. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Here's an old clip of a really interesting school that teaches squad-level archery, Satsuma Hekiryu Koshiya. Watch how these guys move around. I don't think I would last a single training session doing that, I wouldn't be able to walk off the field. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
It's not 'old school' it's fundamental. Maybe due to such moaning about knees folk lose it's purpose and indeed reality. Or maybe they were never taught. Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Regardless, the fact that he may have done something doesn't make it healthy for you. He also participated in static stretching - which studies now show to be ineffective at best and harmful at worst, and suffered from various health issues related to diet. Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
Why are you keeping on with amount 'movement'? The subject is doing suwariwaza. What exactly do you mean abt. 'less movement on the knee compared to 'modern'? It seems to me you are saying something which doesn't mean anything. Perhaps you could explain. Peace.G. |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
As for diet not being in his field of expertise, I agree - orthopedics wasn't either. More movement on the knees means more stress less movement means more stress. The type of movements you see also tend to be different in more modern Aikido - many more turning and spinning movements. Best, Chris |
Re: Suwari Waza
Quote:
The only other thing I can see is that otherwise it's down to people not even understanding what was originally said or found and thus loads of experts start appearing with stuff like you reference above. The first thing on that list says even stretching is not necessary at all complete with examples of those who 'don't do it'. Well if you wan't to believe that you will believe anything is how I look at it. After reading or using computer or many things done in a bent or uncomfortable position a person then stretches. You yawn and stretch, there's hundreds of times a person stretches and all to a better condition as a result. So that so called 'mindblowing data about stretching' is nothing of the sort and only needed for those who believed stretching did something it didn't do, in other words misinformed people. It does not equal stretching is bad or harmful in any way and such statements to me are usual stupidity used just to get attention like a newspaper headline. Just like anything else including drinking water...doing it the wrong way or too much etc. is harmful. Plus perspective....have you seen damage done by not stretching? I have. Boy are people gullible. A good article would merely say what the purpose of stretching is, the why? the ways, the benefits, etc. and then any intelligent person could see when it was necessary and also which stretching wasn't. Simple. Many more turning in modern Aikido on the knees? Well I can assure you that stress on the knees has nothing to do with turning or less turning so your theory is misinformed. In fact the whole view of suwariwaza and knees given on here is false. Japanese seiza translated means sitting. Have you ever wondered why? Why isn't it called kneeling? Suwariwaza should have nothing to do with knees so the focus on such shows me a lack of reality. So 1) Suwariwaza, whether with lots of turning or very little turning has nothing to do with stress on knees. 2) Believing it does leads people to believe they are doing things from the knees and thus just makes their 'problem' worse. Peace.G. |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:57 AM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.