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-   -   Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24534)

earnest aikidoka 10-02-2015 09:36 AM

Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
I refer to my previous thread regarding aikido as a striking art. I was wrong.

Wrong on the basis that while aikido is not a grappling art. It is a striking art. This is because, like most martial artists would say, striking and grappling are concepts for competitive fighting or sport-based combat.

Aikido is a traditional art, or more specifically, has roots to traditional martial arts.

And traditionally, combat involves weaponry of a sort. Either the art utilizes weaponry, or deals with opponent wielding weaponry, or both.

Therefore, aikido is an art of weapons. And to understand Aikido and its effects, one should train with a blade in one hand.

Apologies for my previous misconceptions.

lbb 10-02-2015 10:23 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
The elephant is very like a spear...

PeterR 10-02-2015 12:15 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 345357)
The elephant is very like a spear...

:D

kewms 10-02-2015 12:48 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Would you care to share what brought you to this change of heart?

Katherine

Erick Mead 10-02-2015 01:33 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345355)
And to understand Aikido and its effects, one should train with a blade in one hand.

Most errors in applying aikido are improved or corrected by the student answering two questions:

"Where is your blade?' and "Where are you cutting?"

Gary David 10-02-2015 01:41 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Folks
Most of you are not old enough to remember Felix the Cat and his magic bag of tricks. The bag could be shaped into anything Felix needed to do whatever he needed to do. For each of us our Aikido should be like Felix's bag.....shape it into whatever you need and adapt that bag to the circumstances and environment around you at any given moment.
Gary

rugwithlegs 10-02-2015 02:25 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
While the connection to the tools is important, I am reminded of a book, "Living the Martial Way." The author made the point that learning striking but refusing to learn grappling, or claiming that one could strike so well that they never needed to learn how to grapple - the author said this was like a modern soldier refusing to learn to use a rifle because they knew how to use a hand grenade.

Weapons practice itself is more branded than our empty hand. Saito, Nishio, Chiba, Kanai, many others - weapons are connected to their personal empty hand. The weapons work seems much more codified for different systems.

earnest aikidoka 10-02-2015 04:54 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 345359)
Would you care to share what brought you to this change of heart?

Katherine

Aikido is still striking, don't misunderstand that. But striking as I previously defined it was striking on a competitive basis. Traditional combat involved heavy armor and weaponry that would have required a different method of striking. One that involves having a heavier weapon in one's hand, rather than a boxing glove. It's still striking in a sense, but I must be strict with myself, if I am to expect the same in others. Therefore, I was wrong.

earnest aikidoka 10-02-2015 04:57 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Erick Mead wrote: (Post 345360)
Most errors in applying aikido are improved or corrected by the student answering two questions:

"Where is your blade?' and "Where are you cutting?"

Would I be wrong to reply, "Anywhere which can possibly hold a blade," and "anywhere which a blade can cut"?

kewms 10-02-2015 05:00 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345369)
Would I be wrong to reply, "Anywhere which can possibly hold a blade," and "anywhere which a blade can cut"?

Yes. To cut (or strike) effectively, you need to have a specific target in mind. If you can't say what that target is in a specific instance, then you aren't really cutting (or striking).

Katherine

earnest aikidoka 10-02-2015 05:44 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 345370)
Yes. To cut (or strike) effectively, you need to have a specific target in mind. If you can't say what that target is in a specific instance, then you aren't really cutting (or striking).

Katherine

Firstly. that was a joke.

Secondly, in the midst of pitched battle, against a fully armored warrior and aiming for a target the size of a china cup saucer, and pressed for time because you never know when the next guy is coming to take your head while you are trying to find the saucer. Can you expect to have a specific target in mind?

A duel is even worse. The other guy has the same weapon as you, do you not think that he would know where he could be cut and take precautions? To aim for a specific target then would make you predictable, and shortly dead.

In which case, my serious answer would be;

"where is my blade? It is in the mind."

"Where do I cut? Where the mind is weakest."

In my opinion of course.

kewms 10-02-2015 06:06 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345371)
Firstly. that was a joke.

Secondly, in the midst of pitched battle, against a fully armored warrior and aiming for a target the size of a china cup saucer, and pressed for time because you never know when the next guy is coming to take your head while you are trying to find the saucer. Can you expect to have a specific target in mind?

A duel is even worse. The other guy has the same weapon as you, do you not think that he would know where he could be cut and take precautions? To aim for a specific target then would make you predictable, and shortly dead.

I'm sorry, but you aren't making any sense.

If the only gap in a suit of armor is a target the size of a saucer, how could you possibly hit it *without* having that specific target in mind?

Yes, of course your opponent knows where his potential openings are and tries to defend them. But trying to cut where there is no opening is pointless.

So sure, "cut where the mind is weakest" is fine as a general principle. But when your teacher asks, in mid-cut, what you thought your target was, I'm guessing that's not the answer he's looking for.

Katherine

Cliff Judge 10-02-2015 07:25 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345368)
Aikido is still striking, don't misunderstand that. But striking as I previously defined it was striking on a competitive basis. Traditional combat involved heavy armor and weaponry that would have required a different method of striking. One that involves having a heavier weapon in one's hand, rather than a boxing glove. It's still striking in a sense, but I must be strict with myself, if I am to expect the same in others. Therefore, I was wrong.

You are actually onto something, but you need to get your head around more Japanese history. The oldest koryu were founded in those days, but there were 286-odd years of almost no armored battle during which koryu was always trying to justify itself by harkening back to an obsolete age.

earnest aikidoka 10-03-2015 04:08 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 345373)
I'm sorry, but you aren't making any sense.

If the only gap in a suit of armor is a target the size of a saucer, how could you possibly hit it *without* having that specific target in mind?

Yes, of course your opponent knows where his potential openings are and tries to defend them. But trying to cut where there is no opening is pointless.

So sure, "cut where the mind is weakest" is fine as a general principle. But when your teacher asks, in mid-cut, what you thought your target was, I'm guessing that's not the answer he's looking for.

Katherine

Pick up a bokken and try and cut your sensei. That's the best way to get the idea I would think.

earnest aikidoka 10-03-2015 04:11 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 345374)
You are actually onto something, but you need to get your head around more Japanese history. The oldest koryu were founded in those days, but there were 286-odd years of almost no armored battle during which koryu was always trying to justify itself by harkening back to an obsolete age.

Agreed. The history is sketchy on my part, but one can't deny that weaponry was a big part of historical combat, so when considering a traditional art or koryu, the weaponry should thus be a consideration that takes precedence over bare-hands.

rugwithlegs 10-03-2015 09:55 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345368)
Aikido is still striking, don't misunderstand that. But striking as I previously defined it was striking on a competitive basis. Traditional combat involved heavy armor and weaponry that would have required a different method of striking. One that involves having a heavier weapon in one's hand, rather than a boxing glove. It's still striking in a sense, but I must be strict with myself, if I am to expect the same in others. Therefore, I was wrong.

There are several ways of using anatomy to generate power. If I understand you correctly, then absolutely a boxing jab is very different from swinging a sword which had more in common with swinging an axe or a hammer. Applied to empty hand, this type of strike can create different opportunities from a jab. Swords can slice, cut, pierce, chop. The weight and length of a sword or jo creates it's own momentum. The sword edge needs to be the contact surface to cut, so we have to be aware of the slightest movement in our wrists.

The Jo doesn't require this awareness of the edge because it is an impact weapon. With rare exceptions, the sword and jo are used with two hands working closely in concert - koryu jo allows for more distance and separation of the hands.

Tanto can allow for complete separation of the hands, and the Tanto doesn't create it's own momentum like a longer weapon. The power comes back from human structure instead of a longer weapon where you need to relax and let it fall into your hands for more power. Timing is different, and more like empty hand timing with a very short weapon. Tanto I think compliments many of the more modern empty hand techniques.

I believe the Chinese martial arts distinguish between 83ish separate forms of martial power. Focus on sword work can inform empty hand, but our three weapons do inform empty hand a little differently and other tools maybe need other understanding.

O Sensei wrote about an unlimited set of responses being the best strategy, so I don't encourage focus on a singular definition. We do have different forms of power generation. Always good to focus on one and learn it well than learn a dozen things shallowly.

kewms 10-03-2015 09:58 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345376)
Pick up a bokken and try and cut your sensei. That's the best way to get the idea I would think.

I have. That's how I know how important it is to have a target.

Katherine

Cliff Judge 10-03-2015 11:38 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
I tend to agree with the theory that Aikido shomenuchi represents a straight cut with a sword.

jurasketu 10-03-2015 02:58 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
I often tell new students and children to imagine they have a bottle in their hand for the shomenuchi and yokomenuchi attacks. This helps give them the understanding that we are simulating weapon attacks. It then makes a lot more sense to avoid the attack with blending movement rather trying to block with your arms, hands or head.

In the children classes that I teach, I spend time every week having them (without doing technique) avoid and enter against a shinai shomenuchi or munetski attack. I think it helps drill into them the concept of getting out of the way, positioning and to treat all attacks as though there might be a weapon - blunt or bladed. If anything, I think that is the most important skill I'm teaching the children.

Janet Rosen 10-03-2015 03:55 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Robin Johnson wrote: (Post 345385)
In the children classes that I teach, I spend time every week having them (without doing technique) avoid and enter against a shinai shomenuchi or munetski attack. I think it helps drill into them the concept of getting out of the way, positioning and to treat all attacks as though there might be a weapon - blunt or bladed. If anything, I think that is the most important skill I'm teaching the children.

Those who teach our kids' classes do the same thing :)

Cliff Judge 10-04-2015 05:53 PM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
The act of trying to break a bottle on someone's head is an entirely different use of the physical body than the act of making a full-power straight cut, with a sword, on someone. Just wanted to point that out. It's somewhat interesting to think about. It is likely that the differences in the attacks mean that the technique teaches different things to nage. But what does that mean, and how important is it?

phitruong 10-05-2015 07:10 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 345403)
The act of trying to break a bottle on someone's head is an entirely different use of the physical body than the act of making a full-power straight cut, with a sword, on someone. Just wanted to point that out. It's somewhat interesting to think about. It is likely that the differences in the attacks mean that the technique teaches different things to nage. But what does that mean, and how important is it?

not bottle. folding chair! don't any of you watch WWE or WWF or whatever they called themselves these days? years ago, we hung a folding chair on the weapon rack, in front of the shomen. Our sensei bowed in and saw the folding chair and laughed pretty hard. we also hung spatula on the weapon rack too. vicious weapon, the spatula. spatula take away techniques involved lots of flying pancakes and sticky maple syrup. :D

phitruong 10-05-2015 07:27 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345376)
Pick up a bokken and try and cut your sensei. That's the best way to get the idea I would think.

if you know who's her sensei, then that statement is hilarious, in so many way. :D

and yes, i took up my bokken against her sensei many times, and died in more ways than i could count.

dps 10-05-2015 07:56 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

John Hillson wrote: (Post 345379)
The weight and length of a sword or jo creates it's own momentum.

Momentum taken from Wikipedia: Momentum: is the product of the mass and velocity of an object.

The sword or jo does not generate its own momentum, the momentum is generated by the person holding the sword or jo.

dps

Erick Mead 10-05-2015 08:24 AM

Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)
 
Quote:

Hansel Wong wrote: (Post 345369)
Would I be wrong to reply, "Anywhere which can possibly hold a blade," and "anywhere which a blade can cut"?

You would be entirely correct.

The problem usually lies in seeing that there is a way that the blade is being held in the engagement in question -- and a way that it is cutting throughout the engagement.


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