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Khaled 01-22-2005 06:44 AM

Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
“ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”
etc……

I didn’t lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren’t they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

mj 01-22-2005 07:16 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Well...
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
(who is going to pick a fight with an old, weak, fat guy?)

" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
(rubbish)

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
(grabbing happens in every fight)

" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
(shomen-ate)

" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
(it's also good for opening doors and avoiding charging animals)

" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
(are these guys in Saudi Arabia?...aren't they always chopping each others heads off with swords?)

" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
(duh)

Each to his own. Anyone caught dissing other arts will be shot at dawn.

dan guthrie 01-22-2005 07:18 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
One of my senseis is a guard at a hospital for some of the people too crazy and violent for prison. I'm going to talk to him about posting here.
About a month ago he asked one of the students who's studied Tang Soo Do to spar using high kicks. One of the "inmates" has gone off his medicine and that's his preferred method of attack, he's kicked other inmates. He took some punishment on his arm ( it wasn't full speed) but I think it shows some definite promise that would translate into any real attack.
One of the Ultimate Fighting Champions, Chuck Liddel (sp?) has a dojo 15 miles away from ours and there's a kick boxing dojo 2 miles closer to this senseis house.
Sensei has a choice and he chose Aikido.
I'm not saying one art is better than another but I do think Aikido is effective and compassionate.

David Yap 01-22-2005 07:25 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Hi Khaled,

Honestly, Khaled, that's a tough question to answer. It is all about perception. I started doing karate when I was 14 years old, aikido when I was 36 and this is 12th year in aikido. I have been always been active in karate and only given up teaching 2 years ago: I wasn't convinced that my chief instructor had gained enlightenment to re-invent karate his way.

A hundred years ago karate was a complete art meaning it had grappling, throws and ground fighting beside the hand strikes and kicks but all that changed after the art was introduced into the public school system - it was "water-downed" to make it safe for school children (same for TKD which was a Korean re-invention of JKA style karate). 34 years ago, I thought I have picked the complete art but the only thing missing is a "complete" teacher.

So who are these "martial artists" who only trained in one art?

Peace be with you.

David Y

jss 01-22-2005 10:06 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"

That's nothing more than an observation. It's astonishing how a certain intonation can make an observation sound like criticism. And I like that the fact that a lot of of the (important) aikido players are old, fat and not that strong: it means that aikido is the best martial art: you do not need to be athletic to be any good at it. :-) (And you can still practice when you're old, which is nice as well.)

Quote:

" ou can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
As stated above, untrue. Firstly you can use aikido offensively, it is just not practiced that way. Secondly, ultimately (when you're old and fat) you learn how to make the attacker attack you in the way you want him/her to. Very simple example of the opposite: when training a wrist grab, I often have to explain to beginners that if they stand with their feet next to each other and their hands by their side, I will not grab their wrist, but rather kick them or puch them.

Quote:

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
Techniques are often trained in reaction to grabbing, but that's because it's easier to learn. And after reading some threads on this: it seems to depend on what kind of fgiht you're in, whether there'll be any grabbing. There's a big difference between fighting, for example, an experienced street figher and a drunk friend who claims you cheated while playing scrabble with him.

Quote:

" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
I have yet failed to step out of the line of attack using only my hands, but I'll keep trying. (Also have I not yet succeeded in punching without the use of my hands, but I suspect that only a truely enligyhtened person will be able to grasp this.)

Quote:

" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
It's excellent for those! And for training! They're all three a lot of fun.
Question: Only good for seminars and demonstrations as opposed to ...? (It's good to know that the people you spoke know their rhetoircal trics.) Probably as opposed to fighting, but fighting is such a broad concept (see above) ...

Quote:

" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
I don not believe any aikidoka claims that we train with the bokken for practical purposes.

Quote:

" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
How can you tell? Are there quota we can use to measure this?
And as a philosopher I must say that the difference between an aikido training and a philosophy class is quite large.

Quote:

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
I've never seen aikido fight against something or someone, so I wouldn't know.

andylucas 01-22-2005 10:15 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
opinions are like what?

mikeg 01-22-2005 10:20 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
I often read stories like this, but the experienced, non-aikido martial artists whom I know personally all have a lot of respect for aikido. These are people in their thirties or forties who have trained in things like escrima or shotokan karate. They generally think that it takes a very long time to learn aikido, but they share wide-eyed stories of expert aikido feats.

Qatana 01-22-2005 10:23 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Khaled

I think from your other post, about aikido being a girl, that you already Chose aikido, you already have a love and beginning understanding of the art.
People always put down what they don't unserstand or fear, I do it all the time!
You should follow the path that means something to You, not the guys in the class after yours at the dojo.You don't have to live with them, and you do have to live with yourself.

Kevin Leavitt 01-22-2005 11:51 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
I disagree with every single generalization that was made. You can be fat, but it is not advisable. I can find fat practioners in every art. Other than that, I won't do a point by point counter!

Agree with Jo's statement above!

thomas_dixon 01-22-2005 12:15 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Mike Gallo wrote:
I often read stories like this, but the experienced, non-aikido martial artists whom I know personally all have a lot of respect for aikido. These are people in their thirties or forties who have trained in things like escrima or shotokan karate. They generally think that it takes a very long time to learn aikido, but they share wide-eyed stories of expert aikido feats.

Kalista and Escrimador like to flow :cool:

Sue Hammerich 01-22-2005 02:14 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Those are good questions. I commend you for your desire to learn, and for your courage expressed in your inquiry. What your fellow martial artists feel about Aikido and their respective art is probably the truth - for THEM. That sounds like a cop-out, I know. But everyone's opinion of anything is filtered through his or her own experience. For instance, different tonal structure has created different types of music in the world. What sounds like cacophony to someone from one part of the world is enjoyable to another. Words that are gibberish to one person is a common language to someone else. Are any of these opinions wrong? No, unless there is a judgment attached.
I commend you on your desire to find your own path in martial arts; I presume that corresponds to your seeking your own path in life. Keep questioning, do the right thing, and peace to you and yours
Have a great week!
Sue

giriasis 01-22-2005 03:58 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Khaled,

I'm going to agree with the many others here. Please do not allow the negative words of others from discouraging you from pursuing your own martial path. Be proud of your choice of aikido. It is as valid and worthy as any other martial art. They only demean it because they do not have the knowledge or understanding of being an aikido practitioner. Enter "irimi" and invite them to train with you and learn aikido for themselves. "Tenkan" and tell them that you understand their questions but that you find that there is more to aikido than there appears to be from first glance.

TheWonderKid 01-22-2005 06:51 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
The thing I find funny about people criticizing Aikido because of less punches and kicks (which are in fact incorporated in the techniques in our dojo) is that if your Aikido is good, they only get to throw one punch.

They throw a punch to your abs, you slip into a Tsuki Kotogeshi (dunno if that's spelled correctly) and they end up flat on their face with their thumb pointing towards the back of their head.

Seems effective enough to me.

Rupert Atkinson 01-22-2005 07:17 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo.

While the experience of others is valid, whatever you think, it is best to 'think' it from your own experience.

Martin Ruedas 01-23-2005 05:52 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
I think those opinions are very shallow, if they were needles, they would'nt even penetrate the rubber if Aikido were a balloon.

Chad Scott 01-23-2005 06:38 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
My brother-in-law is a police officer, and he uses his aikido skills more often than his tae kwon do skills when he is on the job. He said aikido is more practical in real-life situations than tae kwon do. He has studied both.

neb1979 01-23-2005 07:52 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Hi Khaled

I have only been studding Aikido for about four months now and have read allot on Aikido, I have also trained in alto of other Arts and do understand were these people are coming from because I used to be one of them. What I believe these people are not realizing is that Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking and all the other physical stuff its about not being in a situation in the first place and if you do have no other choice, to deal with it with as little or no injury to the other person and yourself. I really don't think that these peoples minds are very open? I work security and one night I had this biky throw a hay maker at me with my back to him, this was about two months into training, I actually sensed him coming before he made contact with my head so I was able to maneuver myself so the punched missed, this is what I mean by Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking its about not being in the situation in the first place. After the punched missed I stepped away and got the police to remove him as It would have been difficult for myself to do. That is Aikido. I hope this has been of some benefit to you Khaled keep training all the best. :)

Tim Gerrard 01-23-2005 02:34 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Should invite him to a class, let him see for himself.

skyetide 01-23-2005 04:17 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Aikido is nice because it gives us the option of diffusing situations with compassion....and not necessarily having to do major damage.

I don't think that one martial art is superior over another...rather you should find the one that is best for you in this time of your life. I would suggest to choose the style that you are drawn to the most and don't worry what others say.

I studied TKD for seven years when I was younger. It was good for me at that time. Now I have found Aikido. For "real
life" situations that I would likely be in as a school teacher, Aikido is the best path for me now. I would like to be able to subdue a violent student without doing damage to them. This is not to mention the non-violent situations in which I try to use Aikido philosophy just to get through my day.

Best wishes in finding your path, Kahled.

eyrie 01-23-2005 07:35 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
You've made your choice to do aikido. So why waste your time proving or disproving aikido's effectiveness? Simply agree with them and admit that aikido is absolutely useless in a street fight. Ask for a demonstration of their prowess (not on you of course), and look for every opening in their attack and defence. Then thank them for their impressive display of martial effectiveness and say you are too much of a sissy to take such hard punishment and that you'll stick with a sissy sport like aikido instead. And walk away.

The most frustrating thing for people like this is if you don't play their game.

maikerus 01-23-2005 09:56 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
You can always reply with the argument:

"You're training for competition in which there are rules, so you are actually training not to use full force or power when punching and kicking. I hope this doesn't come back to hurt you in a fight when you 'punch' someone and give them a little tap for the 'point'.

I train in something where there is very little competition because it is too dangerous not to know what your opponent is doing...after all, if we killed all our training partners then where would we be?"

...or you could just smile because you know something they don't and let them keep shoving square pegs into round holes.

--Michael

Bridge 01-24-2005 01:53 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
May i point out. Aikidoists have been the MOST open minded of ALL martial arts collectives I have ever met. And I've hopped between quite a few styles too.

xuzen 01-24-2005 02:52 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Dear Khaled,

I am so sorry your dojo mate / friends look down on aikido. Over at my place we don't have any problem... that is the ill reputation of aikido in general. Hmmm, I wonder if the fact that Yoshinkan style has anything to do with it? One can only guess.

Quote:

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido. Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
Ask those non believer to do randori/jiyu waza with your sempai/senior brethens for 5 minutes under full attack mode, no holding back. If they are not out-of-breath, out of sync and out of focus, then I will say that they are super-fit.

Quote:

you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
Why can't we attack? If in randori/jiyu waza the uke's are not attacking, I will charge at them. The key is to get them to response in the manner where you can then perform the prescribed technique. So pre-emptive strike are quite common in my randori.

Quote:

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
Nah, there are also techniques to counter strikes. Yokomenuchi, Shomenuchi, Munetuski... etc. What aikido are you learning BTW? No strikes, only grab? There are also technique to counter beer bottle to the head, baseball bat to the side etc.

I will continue this thread further tomorrow. Alas... the evil dictator called Mr Work is calling me. <sigh>

Boon.

Peter Seth 01-24-2005 06:13 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Hi E1.
Well! Let me say apart from being 'bad form' to offer opinions on other arts, it is extremely ignorant if you know nothing about them? I have been involved in martial arts for 0ver 40 years and ALL arts are good in there individual way. I chose Aikido as my 'life art' for many reasons, its philosophy (I am not Naive before anyone says it) its all about how you yourself want to live your life - I find violence to be a bit of a bore, a negative thing in most cases. But, (being oldish but not too fat) I can if required delve very very deeply (and subtley) into violence.
Luckily due to aikido It has not been called upon too often.
Aikido in my view is an excellent vehicle in which can be included any aspects of any other martial art if required (usually as a back up for a mistiming). It can be gentle at one end, and in a split second, lethal at the other.
So do not be disheartened, These macho comments mean nothing to a 'thinking' person.
Pete.

PS: In fact aikido's potential frightens me sometimes.

justinm 01-24-2005 07:07 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts????

Possibly.
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

Possibly.

Are you enjoying it? Then go and train. :)

Justin

ian 01-24-2005 07:40 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
Hi every 1
1. Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
2. you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
3. many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
4. aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
5. aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
6. aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
7. aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"

1. true, but fitness is useful in self-defence. Good aikidoka will try to improve their fitness as well (Ueshiba was supposed to be quite strong). Age will tend to decrease physical ability.
2. false; many of the techniques derive from restrain 'attacks' or can lead from a defence (e.g. block) to an attack.
3. false; grabbing does happen in real attacks, and to a large extent grabbing is just an early stage in learning connecting with your opponent.
4. Kicks are possible, but they limit your ability to move your body (1 foot is raised so you have to hop). The whole body is used in aikido, because we move the whole body.
5. not true; aikido learns responses from sudden unpredictable attacks from anywhere, whereas other martial arts often train against set attack types or do sparring where the opponent is obvious.
6. We don't learn ken-jitsu, we learn aiki-ken. The sword work is there purely to develop the unarmed techniques.
7. Competitive martial arts are usually fight orientated i.e. one opponent, often assume there are matts and pads. Aikido is self-defence orientated i.e. producing a level of agression appropriate to the situation (e.g. a simple nikkyo or gently breaking of a grip can prevent escalation of a fight). Aikido also assumes that if you go to the floor you are lost (which is true in a multiple attack) and that there can be more than one attacker, and they could be armed with anything (and often you don't even known if they are armed).

'Fights' are different from attacks. If you want to look cool and reinforce your ego you learn to fight. If you want to resolve conflicts or survive attacks (esp. multiple or knife attacks) aikido is your best option.

I have used aikido many times, and although it is maybe not as satisfying as destroying someone with punches or kicks; it is much more effective for conflict resolution and in my experience it minimises injuries on both sides.

dawolfie 01-24-2005 08:01 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
I think some critics of Aikido are so critical because of the length of time it takes for someone to understand the principles of Aikido, much less be able to use it.

It has some to do in how you view yourself and your own growth. The live in student in our dojo works very very hard at his AIkido, he wants to have a dojo one day and share what he has learned. Not because he is self conscious or afraid of the world, but because he wants to learn Aikido to the fullest extent.

Unless you are in the dojo for any amount of time, Aikido cannot be fully appreciated. After a handful of years, I still go in and find new things. There is just too many aspects of Aikido to be learned from a demonstration.

As far as fitness, that is also up to the student. We work out pretty hard. I lost over 30 lbs and a lady in our class lost 70lbs! Not because it is not a fitness workout, but because we push ourselves and attack as fast as we can be thrown. That is another thing so rarely overlooked, the ukemi. Where else can your learning be based on how well you can take a technique. Rolling and breakfalls are not easy, eventually they become natural, but never easy.

pezalinski 01-24-2005 09:18 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Well, the best response I can give is anecdotal:
An Aikidoka, a Judoka, a Karateka, and a "general fighting arts" guy, all friends and all advanced students in their respective styles, were walking through a bad part of town after classes and got jumped by a gang of about 20 guys, many armed with sticks and knives. (This is not a joke -- I was told this by the judo guy of the story.). They survived and got the better end of the fight, and as the four friends were counting coup, afterwards, the Judo guy (who'd taken a few superficial knife wounds) complained to the others that the Aikido guy must have just stood there, because he was the only one of them who wasn't dirty, cut, bruised, or visibly wounded. The generalist said, no, the aikidoka was the one who took out the most guys, because he didn't get caught up in one-on-one conflicts -- he just went through the crowd like a scythe, turning and tossing guys into one another and into walls, telephone poles, and each other. In their post-game analysis, the Judo and Karate guys tended to focus too much on a single attacker, and were often nailed by a third party who took advantage of their focus; the "generalist" was more Hapkido-oriented, and did more specific damage to his opponent -- but he also was too one-on-one focused. Those three also had a "take a hit to make a hit" concept as part of their styles, so they all three took damage of some sort, and took it in stride. The aikidoka was the only one who was really effective in a melee, and was otherwise unscathed -- and as a result, the other three martial artists decided to take up aikido. (The judoka has been practicing Aikido exclusively for over 15 years now, so this story is fairly old -- before gangs routinely carried guns in California; I think he placed it in the mid-1980's.)

Quote:

"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
- strong enough for what? IMHO, if you rely on strength, you will be beaten by strength...

Quote:

" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
IMHO, only as beginner -- advanced students perceive the intention to attack, and preempt the attacker -- leading his intention away from an actual attack OR into an attack one is prepared to handle.

Quote:

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
So do Jujitsu, Judo, Wingchun, Kung Fu, wrestling and many many styles of other arts -- grappling is a 'closing' attack. Have any of these guys been in a "real" fight :rolleyes: ?

Quote:

" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
All I can say, is you've never worked out with my sensei... ATEMI - ATEMI - ATEMI :D

Any competent Taekwando or Karate instructor will tell you that the jumping high kicks are suicide unless the opponent is already dazed or otherwise unaware of your attack. (There is plenty of power, but you are totally committed to that attack -- if you screw it up, you've screwed up big time.)

Low kicks to the knees and ankles are the most effective, atemi-wise (can't stand, can't fight). They also can cause the most serious damage with the least amount of force (knees and ankles have serious weak points, my friend). These are some of the reasons we don't train much using kicks -- it' too easy to cause serious damage (non-Ai-Ki). Strikes are what we use in aikido to redirect an opponent's attention and energy, not to destroy him.

Quote:

" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
Admittedly, aikidoists are the only ones I know of who can put on a demo at a moments notice, with little or no prep to "stage" the combat, and still use effective , full-speed techniques on their opponents. This is supposed to be a weakness?

Quote:

" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
-- what is a machete if not a sword when it is used against persons throughout the third world?

Quote:

" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
Here I would agree with them -- Ai-Ki-Do is not designed to teach you how to kill people quickly :disgust: (often a goal during combat); that would make it an oxymoron. Again, I ask, is that a bad thing? :)

Adam Alexander 01-24-2005 09:37 AM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
"Here I would agree with them -- Ai-Ki-Do is not designed to teach you how to kill people quickly (often a goal during combat); that would make it an oxymoron. Again, I ask, is that a bad thing?"

depends on the style you train, I think. Seems like the difference between life and death in a moment while using Irimi Nage is simply the placement of your knee and placement of the attacker.

darin 01-24-2005 03:47 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

I think pezalinski gave a great answer!

maikerus 01-24-2005 04:21 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Ian Dodkins wrote:
...although it is maybe not as satisfying as destroying someone with punches or kicks; it is much more effective for conflict resolution and in my experience....

I think this is a really good observation. The satisfaction you feel when you hit/kick something when you are angry (I'm pretty sure everyone has done this to something) is easily translated into the satisfaction you expect to feel when hitting/kicking in training. When you watch a demo of a MA that does that you can relate to it. It's hard to relate to the satisfaction of smoothly executing a controlled move that you see in a demo and only experience will give you that satisfaction. Those that only watch Aikido are destined to never understand the satisfaction of those that practice.

Peter...great story. I had never thought about it like that, but it seems to follow from our training. Thanks.

--Michael

ElizabethCastor 01-24-2005 06:28 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Ben McClean wrote:
...What I believe these people are not realizing is that Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking and all the other physical stuff its about not being in a situation in the first place and if you do have no other choice, to deal with it with as little or no injury to the other person and yourself. ...its about not being in the situation in the first place.

:D

Absolutely...
some people from my dojo went to the bar to be social and the newest akidoka asked our sensei if/when she had ever used the techniques that we are learning and she said:

Learning MA is more than learning the techiniques but understanding when there is a preson or a situation that is not safe and having the sense to stay away if possible. If its not possible to get out then you are prepared...

I just find that this meets my intentions... be ready but there's no need to be 'fists of fury' from the get-go!

makuchg 01-24-2005 07:56 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Hello everyone. This is a very interesting post. I am in the Army and just returned from Iraq. I can tell you that pain compliance techniques, such as sankkyo and nikkyo are very effective in "real life." I can also tell you that kaeshinage and iriminage are also effective. Now I will tell you some Aikido techniques are less effective in high stress situations, not because they are ineffective, but because they require more instictive motor skills then most of us have in a fight. A well trained (tens of years) aikidoka may move instinctively, but most (myself included) don't.

For truely effective combat techniques, learn four or five that work from almost any attack. I recommend kotegaeshi, iriminage, nikkyo, ikkyo, shihonage. Practice these from any attack wearing what you normally wear and increase speed as proficiency increases. Vary location and space available to simulate different situations. If you truly doubt these techniques effectiveness, go watch a law enforcement submission class at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) or the FBI Academy (they are teaching these). These techniques are also fundamental in the new Marine Corps martial art program. Finally go vist a Krav Maga training center and you'll see these techniques are very similar to the ones being taught in their class. For those not familiar, Krav Maga is the combat system of the Israeli Defense Forces. Whether or not you think favorably about Israeli politics, their soldiers are well trained and this is what they teach.

Finally, I recommend reading Warrior Spirit by Richard Heckler-Stozzi (I think I spelled that right). It is about a recently declassified project the US Army did with the 10th Special Forces (it says 20th in the book, but it should be 10th) and it involved Aikido training. The government doesn't choose these arts on an impulse, there was definite research and thought behind their choice. If the Army elected to spend millions teaching Special Forces Aikido I tend to believe it's effectiveness.

Greg Makuch

xuzen 01-24-2005 11:00 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Hi Khaled,

This is the second part of my post...
Quote:

aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
"
Are you crazy? Doing high kick and jumping around against an aikidoka? Ask you sensei to show technique against kicks. You will be amazed how similar they are with your standard textbook technique.

Quote:

aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
"
Yeah, so is TKD, Karate, Wushu. Isn't breaking boards and bricks also display of showmanship?

Quote:

aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today
Sword in aikido is used as a teaching tool. It is used to teach distance, footwork and posture. You are right, it would be really silly to carry a sword in a fight nowadays. An Uzi would be better or my favourite, a Tommy Gun of the Al Capone days.

Quote:

aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way
Yeah, yeah, so are all those arts that end with Do. One has to start at the physical level and mature towards the philosophical. I must admit, I am still at the physical level of internship.

Quote:

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???
Glad you still have faith in aikido. Tell you dojo mates to chill out, if they think aikido is all of the above, ask them to spar with your seniors for educational purpose.

Quote:

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
Yes, all martial arts are effective. If not; they would not have survive until now. They would have die a natural death.

Boon.

David Yap 01-26-2005 03:07 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Bridget Chung wrote:
May i point out. Aikidoists have been the MOST open minded of ALL martial arts collectives I have ever met. And I've hopped between quite a few styles too.

Sorry Bridget, I tend to disagree with your generalization. Perhaps you may have meet those aikidoists who have x-trained in other budo before. IMO, due to the non-competitive doctrine of aikido there tend to be more "my dad can beat your dad" characters among my aikido peers. I once had a drink with a visiting instructor after class. He was told that I was a yudansha in karate. When he asked me what was I doing there (in an aikido dojo), I presumably thought he wanted to know why an ex-karate instructor be interested in training aikido. I merely replied in jest that I train for spiritual reason (in an ethical sense). To this, he burst out in loud laughter and said, "You mean there are spirits in your dojo" [is your dojo haunted?]. That was the first time I made my acquaintance with him. A couple of days later, the same person rang up my dojo instructor to warn him not to trust me, thus giving the impression to my dojo instructor that we have been acquainted for a long time.

At a recent seminar, I bumped into a senior instructor from another dojo - one thing he said after our formal greetings was, "Your karate must have reeeaaally improved a lot". All these remarks were made to assume I train aikido to improve my karate skills. I admit x-training do give me better insight and understanding of my budo arts - meaning I can applied various principles that I come to understand (which are almost the same) across my other disciplines - aikido, archery, golf and karate, etc. Because of my prior MA, it took me a relative short time to pick up aikido compared to those who don't. When I first took up the art, the instructor told me "to empty the cup". Having been there, my advice to those who intend to x-train is not to do that but to filter, sort, adopt or discard. Learning needs rationalizing, "monkey sees and monkey does" would not take you anywhere further from where you start. If you are not prepare to this, then don't waste the time and the money. Also, etiquette requires one to follow instructions to the details wherever dojo one trains. Being a "smartass" also means being rude - unless you happen to train a MMA environment keep your MA to the respective class.

In way what I said about gaining spiritualism from aikido is right, it is a test of ones tolerance (keeping ones center so to speak). In other competitive MA discipline, the size of ones ego is always keep in check - skillfully & physically proven.

That's my humble observation.

David Y

Qatana 01-26-2005 07:13 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
However. David, Bridget was making a completely Subjective statement. You even quoted it! She does not make a sweeping generalisation, she was relating from Her direct experience, and you tried to contradict it with your own.
Both of your experiences are valid. Neither right nor wrong. Just your own.

xuzen 01-26-2005 07:34 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
I've just realised something wrt this thread. Khaled the original thread starter has actually never replied. Hmmm I am wondering if we are being trolled again? Just curious.

Boon.

PeterR 01-26-2005 08:00 PM

Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Of course we are - you guys are just soooooo easy.

We should all read Phil's Field Guide to Trolls.

I don't think too much of Phil's opinions but credit where credit's due - its a job well done.

David Yap 01-26-2005 08:33 PM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
Of course we are - you guys are just soooooo easy.

We should all read Phil's Field Guide to Trolls.

I don't think too much of Phil's opinions but credit where credit's due - its a job well done.

Thanks for the link, Peter. There are so many classifications that can fit any one of us here. Jun, the owner, is excluded for course. :D

Quote:

Jo Adell wrote:
However. David, Bridget was making a completely Subjective statement. You even quoted it! She does not make a sweeping generalization, she was relating from Her direct experience, and you tried to contradict it with your own.

Jo, I assumed she has made a "Hasty" generalization. I merely attempt to show people who do x-training are more "opened-minded" compared to those who train solely one art which I agree is a "subjective statement". ;)

Regards

David Y

CNYMike 01-27-2005 01:16 AM

Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
 
Quote:

Khaled Abdullah wrote:
We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting

In the summer of 1997, and then from 1998 until 2003, I studied Kali under Guro Kevin Seaman at his academy in my home town of Cortland, New York. Guro Kevin has instructorships in Kali and Jun Fan/JKD from Guro Dan Inosanto. Guro had a palque on the wall with principles he wanted his students to remember. One of them has always stuck in my mind: "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems. They all have something to offer." Not an exact quote, but close enough. Esepcially if it's the Jun Fan/JKD guys giving you the most grief.

One of Guro Kevin's students is a Kali instructor in his own right, Guro Andy Astle. Guro Andy is also a full instructor in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, and he as been allowed to teach Pentjak Silat Serak by Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. When I told Guro Andy I was thinking of resuming Aikido, did he tell me, "Don't waste your time"? NO! His exact words were, "Go for it! You'll be a better martial artist." Guro Kevin also supported my decision. Thinking about how Guro Kevin and Pembantu Andy have supported my resuming Aikido makes my blood boil when I read about JKD people giving Aikido people greif.

Oh, and Guro Andy's Kali/Serak class uses the same studio as the Aikido dojo I'm now in; on Friday nights, in fact, Kali is right after Aikido. There hasn't been any verbal sparring between the two groups AFAIK. In fact, a few weeks ago, one of the Aikido guys played with Andy's kids before he left.

Shooting at dawn is too good for the people you refer to. I think hung, drawn, and quartered comes close.

And about what they say:

Quote:

..... Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
Given the sweat I've worked up in Aikido class, it will probably HELP me get fit more than anything else. And my sensei is pretty lean.
Quote:

" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
That's the common way to train in many systems; karateka should be familialr with "ippon kumite" or one-step sparring, where one partner attacks and the other practices defenses. The other night in Kail class, we practiced some replies to the jab, again "waiting" for the attack. But Aikido also "attacks," ie has nage initiate the action.
Quote:

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
I once saw a hockey game brawl on TV where two players had grabbed each other's jerseys and were whacking each other with their free hands. Aikido replies to the grab itself and to grab-and-strike combinations. Next.

Quote:

" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
Western boxing focuses only on the hands. It's all punching, no kicks, locks or throws. Aikido is not alone in specializing. What do the TKD guys do? The JKD people are the only ones with bragging rights here. Barely. Next.

Quote:

"aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
:confused: What?

Quote:

" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
Nobody walks around with a stick in their right hand and a knife in their left, preapred for fights with other so-armed individuals, but Kali practitioners do espada y daga all the time.

Quote:

" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……
Well, it may emphasize philospohy more, but it varies from dojo to dojo. The first dojo I was in, under Sensei Jim Wallace, stopped and talked about it once in a while. The one I am in now just trains.

Quote:

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???
Given that the ones that weren't dead wrong could just as easily be said about other martial arts, even ones more "combative" than Aikido, I doubt it.
Quote:

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
That's two questions.

If "real situation" means a self defense situation, there are enough people on this board to swear by it to give an opinion. Against other MA as in against the dorcs who are giving you grief, yes, but you'd have to know what you're doing.


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