Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting. They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido. Here are some of their quotations: “Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough” “ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do” “ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights” “ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping” “ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations” “ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today” “ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way” etc…… I didn’t lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren’t they have right in some thoughts??? Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts? |
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
One of my senseis is a guard at a hospital for some of the people too crazy and violent for prison. I'm going to talk to him about posting here.
About a month ago he asked one of the students who's studied Tang Soo Do to spar using high kicks. One of the "inmates" has gone off his medicine and that's his preferred method of attack, he's kicked other inmates. He took some punishment on his arm ( it wasn't full speed) but I think it shows some definite promise that would translate into any real attack. One of the Ultimate Fighting Champions, Chuck Liddel (sp?) has a dojo 15 miles away from ours and there's a kick boxing dojo 2 miles closer to this senseis house. Sensei has a choice and he chose Aikido. I'm not saying one art is better than another but I do think Aikido is effective and compassionate. |
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Hi Khaled,
Honestly, Khaled, that's a tough question to answer. It is all about perception. I started doing karate when I was 14 years old, aikido when I was 36 and this is 12th year in aikido. I have been always been active in karate and only given up teaching 2 years ago: I wasn't convinced that my chief instructor had gained enlightenment to re-invent karate his way. A hundred years ago karate was a complete art meaning it had grappling, throws and ground fighting beside the hand strikes and kicks but all that changed after the art was introduced into the public school system - it was "water-downed" to make it safe for school children (same for TKD which was a Korean re-invention of JKA style karate). 34 years ago, I thought I have picked the complete art but the only thing missing is a "complete" teacher. So who are these "martial artists" who only trained in one art? Peace be with you. David Y |
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Question: Only good for seminars and demonstrations as opposed to ...? (It's good to know that the people you spoke know their rhetoircal trics.) Probably as opposed to fighting, but fighting is such a broad concept (see above) ... Quote:
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And as a philosopher I must say that the difference between an aikido training and a philosophy class is quite large. Quote:
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opinions are like what?
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I often read stories like this, but the experienced, non-aikido martial artists whom I know personally all have a lot of respect for aikido. These are people in their thirties or forties who have trained in things like escrima or shotokan karate. They generally think that it takes a very long time to learn aikido, but they share wide-eyed stories of expert aikido feats.
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO
Khaled
I think from your other post, about aikido being a girl, that you already Chose aikido, you already have a love and beginning understanding of the art. People always put down what they don't unserstand or fear, I do it all the time! You should follow the path that means something to You, not the guys in the class after yours at the dojo.You don't have to live with them, and you do have to live with yourself. |
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I disagree with every single generalization that was made. You can be fat, but it is not advisable. I can find fat practioners in every art. Other than that, I won't do a point by point counter!
Agree with Jo's statement above! |
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Those are good questions. I commend you for your desire to learn, and for your courage expressed in your inquiry. What your fellow martial artists feel about Aikido and their respective art is probably the truth - for THEM. That sounds like a cop-out, I know. But everyone's opinion of anything is filtered through his or her own experience. For instance, different tonal structure has created different types of music in the world. What sounds like cacophony to someone from one part of the world is enjoyable to another. Words that are gibberish to one person is a common language to someone else. Are any of these opinions wrong? No, unless there is a judgment attached.
I commend you on your desire to find your own path in martial arts; I presume that corresponds to your seeking your own path in life. Keep questioning, do the right thing, and peace to you and yours Have a great week! Sue |
Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
Khaled,
I'm going to agree with the many others here. Please do not allow the negative words of others from discouraging you from pursuing your own martial path. Be proud of your choice of aikido. It is as valid and worthy as any other martial art. They only demean it because they do not have the knowledge or understanding of being an aikido practitioner. Enter "irimi" and invite them to train with you and learn aikido for themselves. "Tenkan" and tell them that you understand their questions but that you find that there is more to aikido than there appears to be from first glance. |
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The thing I find funny about people criticizing Aikido because of less punches and kicks (which are in fact incorporated in the techniques in our dojo) is that if your Aikido is good, they only get to throw one punch.
They throw a punch to your abs, you slip into a Tsuki Kotogeshi (dunno if that's spelled correctly) and they end up flat on their face with their thumb pointing towards the back of their head. Seems effective enough to me. |
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I think those opinions are very shallow, if they were needles, they would'nt even penetrate the rubber if Aikido were a balloon.
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My brother-in-law is a police officer, and he uses his aikido skills more often than his tae kwon do skills when he is on the job. He said aikido is more practical in real-life situations than tae kwon do. He has studied both.
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
Hi Khaled
I have only been studding Aikido for about four months now and have read allot on Aikido, I have also trained in alto of other Arts and do understand were these people are coming from because I used to be one of them. What I believe these people are not realizing is that Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking and all the other physical stuff its about not being in a situation in the first place and if you do have no other choice, to deal with it with as little or no injury to the other person and yourself. I really don't think that these peoples minds are very open? I work security and one night I had this biky throw a hay maker at me with my back to him, this was about two months into training, I actually sensed him coming before he made contact with my head so I was able to maneuver myself so the punched missed, this is what I mean by Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking its about not being in the situation in the first place. After the punched missed I stepped away and got the police to remove him as It would have been difficult for myself to do. That is Aikido. I hope this has been of some benefit to you Khaled keep training all the best. :) |
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Should invite him to a class, let him see for himself.
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Aikido is nice because it gives us the option of diffusing situations with compassion....and not necessarily having to do major damage.
I don't think that one martial art is superior over another...rather you should find the one that is best for you in this time of your life. I would suggest to choose the style that you are drawn to the most and don't worry what others say. I studied TKD for seven years when I was younger. It was good for me at that time. Now I have found Aikido. For "real life" situations that I would likely be in as a school teacher, Aikido is the best path for me now. I would like to be able to subdue a violent student without doing damage to them. This is not to mention the non-violent situations in which I try to use Aikido philosophy just to get through my day. Best wishes in finding your path, Kahled. |
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You've made your choice to do aikido. So why waste your time proving or disproving aikido's effectiveness? Simply agree with them and admit that aikido is absolutely useless in a street fight. Ask for a demonstration of their prowess (not on you of course), and look for every opening in their attack and defence. Then thank them for their impressive display of martial effectiveness and say you are too much of a sissy to take such hard punishment and that you'll stick with a sissy sport like aikido instead. And walk away.
The most frustrating thing for people like this is if you don't play their game. |
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You can always reply with the argument:
"You're training for competition in which there are rules, so you are actually training not to use full force or power when punching and kicking. I hope this doesn't come back to hurt you in a fight when you 'punch' someone and give them a little tap for the 'point'. I train in something where there is very little competition because it is too dangerous not to know what your opponent is doing...after all, if we killed all our training partners then where would we be?" ...or you could just smile because you know something they don't and let them keep shoving square pegs into round holes. --Michael |
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May i point out. Aikidoists have been the MOST open minded of ALL martial arts collectives I have ever met. And I've hopped between quite a few styles too.
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Dear Khaled,
I am so sorry your dojo mate / friends look down on aikido. Over at my place we don't have any problem... that is the ill reputation of aikido in general. Hmmm, I wonder if the fact that Yoshinkan style has anything to do with it? One can only guess. Quote:
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I will continue this thread further tomorrow. Alas... the evil dictator called Mr Work is calling me. <sigh> Boon. |
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Hi E1.
Well! Let me say apart from being 'bad form' to offer opinions on other arts, it is extremely ignorant if you know nothing about them? I have been involved in martial arts for 0ver 40 years and ALL arts are good in there individual way. I chose Aikido as my 'life art' for many reasons, its philosophy (I am not Naive before anyone says it) its all about how you yourself want to live your life - I find violence to be a bit of a bore, a negative thing in most cases. But, (being oldish but not too fat) I can if required delve very very deeply (and subtley) into violence. Luckily due to aikido It has not been called upon too often. Aikido in my view is an excellent vehicle in which can be included any aspects of any other martial art if required (usually as a back up for a mistiming). It can be gentle at one end, and in a split second, lethal at the other. So do not be disheartened, These macho comments mean nothing to a 'thinking' person. Pete. PS: In fact aikido's potential frightens me sometimes. |
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Are you enjoying it? Then go and train. :) Justin |
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2. false; many of the techniques derive from restrain 'attacks' or can lead from a defence (e.g. block) to an attack. 3. false; grabbing does happen in real attacks, and to a large extent grabbing is just an early stage in learning connecting with your opponent. 4. Kicks are possible, but they limit your ability to move your body (1 foot is raised so you have to hop). The whole body is used in aikido, because we move the whole body. 5. not true; aikido learns responses from sudden unpredictable attacks from anywhere, whereas other martial arts often train against set attack types or do sparring where the opponent is obvious. 6. We don't learn ken-jitsu, we learn aiki-ken. The sword work is there purely to develop the unarmed techniques. 7. Competitive martial arts are usually fight orientated i.e. one opponent, often assume there are matts and pads. Aikido is self-defence orientated i.e. producing a level of agression appropriate to the situation (e.g. a simple nikkyo or gently breaking of a grip can prevent escalation of a fight). Aikido also assumes that if you go to the floor you are lost (which is true in a multiple attack) and that there can be more than one attacker, and they could be armed with anything (and often you don't even known if they are armed). 'Fights' are different from attacks. If you want to look cool and reinforce your ego you learn to fight. If you want to resolve conflicts or survive attacks (esp. multiple or knife attacks) aikido is your best option. I have used aikido many times, and although it is maybe not as satisfying as destroying someone with punches or kicks; it is much more effective for conflict resolution and in my experience it minimises injuries on both sides. |
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I think some critics of Aikido are so critical because of the length of time it takes for someone to understand the principles of Aikido, much less be able to use it.
It has some to do in how you view yourself and your own growth. The live in student in our dojo works very very hard at his AIkido, he wants to have a dojo one day and share what he has learned. Not because he is self conscious or afraid of the world, but because he wants to learn Aikido to the fullest extent. Unless you are in the dojo for any amount of time, Aikido cannot be fully appreciated. After a handful of years, I still go in and find new things. There is just too many aspects of Aikido to be learned from a demonstration. As far as fitness, that is also up to the student. We work out pretty hard. I lost over 30 lbs and a lady in our class lost 70lbs! Not because it is not a fitness workout, but because we push ourselves and attack as fast as we can be thrown. That is another thing so rarely overlooked, the ukemi. Where else can your learning be based on how well you can take a technique. Rolling and breakfalls are not easy, eventually they become natural, but never easy. |
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Well, the best response I can give is anecdotal:
An Aikidoka, a Judoka, a Karateka, and a "general fighting arts" guy, all friends and all advanced students in their respective styles, were walking through a bad part of town after classes and got jumped by a gang of about 20 guys, many armed with sticks and knives. (This is not a joke -- I was told this by the judo guy of the story.). They survived and got the better end of the fight, and as the four friends were counting coup, afterwards, the Judo guy (who'd taken a few superficial knife wounds) complained to the others that the Aikido guy must have just stood there, because he was the only one of them who wasn't dirty, cut, bruised, or visibly wounded. The generalist said, no, the aikidoka was the one who took out the most guys, because he didn't get caught up in one-on-one conflicts -- he just went through the crowd like a scythe, turning and tossing guys into one another and into walls, telephone poles, and each other. In their post-game analysis, the Judo and Karate guys tended to focus too much on a single attacker, and were often nailed by a third party who took advantage of their focus; the "generalist" was more Hapkido-oriented, and did more specific damage to his opponent -- but he also was too one-on-one focused. Those three also had a "take a hit to make a hit" concept as part of their styles, so they all three took damage of some sort, and took it in stride. The aikidoka was the only one who was really effective in a melee, and was otherwise unscathed -- and as a result, the other three martial artists decided to take up aikido. (The judoka has been practicing Aikido exclusively for over 15 years now, so this story is fairly old -- before gangs routinely carried guns in California; I think he placed it in the mid-1980's.) Quote:
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Any competent Taekwando or Karate instructor will tell you that the jumping high kicks are suicide unless the opponent is already dazed or otherwise unaware of your attack. (There is plenty of power, but you are totally committed to that attack -- if you screw it up, you've screwed up big time.) Low kicks to the knees and ankles are the most effective, atemi-wise (can't stand, can't fight). They also can cause the most serious damage with the least amount of force (knees and ankles have serious weak points, my friend). These are some of the reasons we don't train much using kicks -- it' too easy to cause serious damage (non-Ai-Ki). Strikes are what we use in aikido to redirect an opponent's attention and energy, not to destroy him. Quote:
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"Here I would agree with them -- Ai-Ki-Do is not designed to teach you how to kill people quickly (often a goal during combat); that would make it an oxymoron. Again, I ask, is that a bad thing?"
depends on the style you train, I think. Seems like the difference between life and death in a moment while using Irimi Nage is simply the placement of your knee and placement of the attacker. |
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Peter...great story. I had never thought about it like that, but it seems to follow from our training. Thanks. --Michael |
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Absolutely... some people from my dojo went to the bar to be social and the newest akidoka asked our sensei if/when she had ever used the techniques that we are learning and she said: Learning MA is more than learning the techiniques but understanding when there is a preson or a situation that is not safe and having the sense to stay away if possible. If its not possible to get out then you are prepared... I just find that this meets my intentions... be ready but there's no need to be 'fists of fury' from the get-go! |
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Hello everyone. This is a very interesting post. I am in the Army and just returned from Iraq. I can tell you that pain compliance techniques, such as sankkyo and nikkyo are very effective in "real life." I can also tell you that kaeshinage and iriminage are also effective. Now I will tell you some Aikido techniques are less effective in high stress situations, not because they are ineffective, but because they require more instictive motor skills then most of us have in a fight. A well trained (tens of years) aikidoka may move instinctively, but most (myself included) don't.
For truely effective combat techniques, learn four or five that work from almost any attack. I recommend kotegaeshi, iriminage, nikkyo, ikkyo, shihonage. Practice these from any attack wearing what you normally wear and increase speed as proficiency increases. Vary location and space available to simulate different situations. If you truly doubt these techniques effectiveness, go watch a law enforcement submission class at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) or the FBI Academy (they are teaching these). These techniques are also fundamental in the new Marine Corps martial art program. Finally go vist a Krav Maga training center and you'll see these techniques are very similar to the ones being taught in their class. For those not familiar, Krav Maga is the combat system of the Israeli Defense Forces. Whether or not you think favorably about Israeli politics, their soldiers are well trained and this is what they teach. Finally, I recommend reading Warrior Spirit by Richard Heckler-Stozzi (I think I spelled that right). It is about a recently declassified project the US Army did with the 10th Special Forces (it says 20th in the book, but it should be 10th) and it involved Aikido training. The government doesn't choose these arts on an impulse, there was definite research and thought behind their choice. If the Army elected to spend millions teaching Special Forces Aikido I tend to believe it's effectiveness. Greg Makuch |
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Hi Khaled,
This is the second part of my post... Quote:
Are you crazy? Doing high kick and jumping around against an aikidoka? Ask you sensei to show technique against kicks. You will be amazed how similar they are with your standard textbook technique. Quote:
Yeah, so is TKD, Karate, Wushu. Isn't breaking boards and bricks also display of showmanship? Quote:
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Boon. |
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At a recent seminar, I bumped into a senior instructor from another dojo - one thing he said after our formal greetings was, "Your karate must have reeeaaally improved a lot". All these remarks were made to assume I train aikido to improve my karate skills. I admit x-training do give me better insight and understanding of my budo arts - meaning I can applied various principles that I come to understand (which are almost the same) across my other disciplines - aikido, archery, golf and karate, etc. Because of my prior MA, it took me a relative short time to pick up aikido compared to those who don't. When I first took up the art, the instructor told me "to empty the cup". Having been there, my advice to those who intend to x-train is not to do that but to filter, sort, adopt or discard. Learning needs rationalizing, "monkey sees and monkey does" would not take you anywhere further from where you start. If you are not prepare to this, then don't waste the time and the money. Also, etiquette requires one to follow instructions to the details wherever dojo one trains. Being a "smartass" also means being rude - unless you happen to train a MMA environment keep your MA to the respective class. In way what I said about gaining spiritualism from aikido is right, it is a test of ones tolerance (keeping ones center so to speak). In other competitive MA discipline, the size of ones ego is always keep in check - skillfully & physically proven. That's my humble observation. David Y |
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However. David, Bridget was making a completely Subjective statement. You even quoted it! She does not make a sweeping generalisation, she was relating from Her direct experience, and you tried to contradict it with your own.
Both of your experiences are valid. Neither right nor wrong. Just your own. |
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I've just realised something wrt this thread. Khaled the original thread starter has actually never replied. Hmmm I am wondering if we are being trolled again? Just curious.
Boon. |
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Of course we are - you guys are just soooooo easy.
We should all read Phil's Field Guide to Trolls. I don't think too much of Phil's opinions but credit where credit's due - its a job well done. |
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Regards David Y |
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One of Guro Kevin's students is a Kali instructor in his own right, Guro Andy Astle. Guro Andy is also a full instructor in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, and he as been allowed to teach Pentjak Silat Serak by Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. When I told Guro Andy I was thinking of resuming Aikido, did he tell me, "Don't waste your time"? NO! His exact words were, "Go for it! You'll be a better martial artist." Guro Kevin also supported my decision. Thinking about how Guro Kevin and Pembantu Andy have supported my resuming Aikido makes my blood boil when I read about JKD people giving Aikido people greif. Oh, and Guro Andy's Kali/Serak class uses the same studio as the Aikido dojo I'm now in; on Friday nights, in fact, Kali is right after Aikido. There hasn't been any verbal sparring between the two groups AFAIK. In fact, a few weeks ago, one of the Aikido guys played with Andy's kids before he left. Shooting at dawn is too good for the people you refer to. I think hung, drawn, and quartered comes close. And about what they say: Quote:
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If "real situation" means a self defense situation, there are enough people on this board to swear by it to give an opinion. Against other MA as in against the dorcs who are giving you grief, yes, but you'd have to know what you're doing. |
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