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diyfanatic89 09-27-2021 07:09 PM

Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Hi, everyone. I was on Wikipedia and as I was looking up Aikido techniques, the page mentioned that while many techniques from Daitō-ryū Aiki-Jujutsu are in Aikido, there are some techniques that were created by Morihei Ueshiba. I tried looking them up, but I could never find them. What are all the techniques he created?

Setok 10-01-2021 04:18 PM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Be careful what you read on the Internet. So far I have not stumbled across any techniques in aikido that do not exist in Daito Ryu in some form. Then again, even many techniques O’Sensei taught are rarely or even never taught today in aikido (based on his Budo book), so it’s not impossible some of those old ones do not exist in DR.

The difference would seem to be more in intent and execution (at least in modern aikido), with aikido having bigger, more constant movement, and throwing uke away rather than dropping them to your feet. Doing aikido feels different, even when executing the same technical combination, although there are moments when DR feels aikido-like. Also DR does not, in my experience, do aikiken or aikijo, which may well be creations by O’Sensei, as there does not appear to be any strong connection to other weapon arts.

Happy to be corrected, however.

Alex Megann 10-02-2021 05:29 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Here's an interesting article on this topic here on Aikiweb.

The late Ken Cottier, one of the Western pioneers at Aikikai Hombu Dojo in the 1960s, used to say that iriminage was the one technique that Ueshiba O-Sensei created himself.

But then, the modern form of iriminage was argued by Stan Pranin to be a creation of Kisshomaru Nidai Doshu.

Alex

Setok 10-02-2021 03:14 PM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Quote:

Alex Megann wrote: (Post 355478)
Here's an interesting article on this topic here on Aikiweb.

The late Ken Cottier, one of the Western pioneers at Aikikai Hombu Dojo in the 1960s, used to say that iriminage was the one technique that Ueshiba O-Sensei created himself.

But then, the modern form of iriminage was argued by Stan Pranin to be a creation of Kisshomaru Nidai Doshu.

Alex

The Daito Ryu club I visit definitely does iriminage. And a very effective one at that (and it's not one of those Ďaikijutsu' places that do aikido with punches).

Then again the lines blur as in the beginning Ueshiba taught Daito Ryu. So even if he did come up with that technique, it could still be in DR now :) So interesting question: did Takeda do iriminage? Maybe the Soden books would shine some light on that.

Btw one thing to keep in mind is that most lines of DR itself have, I believe, gone through quite substantial changes, probably as a result of work done by Sokaku Takeda's son. It was interesting to find that Amatsu-Sensei and presumably his teacher Hisa-Sensei (Menkyo Kaiden) use aikido type names for techniques which are not unrecognisable from their aikido counterparts (ikkajo, nikajo etc are different from their meaning in other branches and basically the same as in aikido). I would not be surprised to find that the Soden books use ikkajo, nikajo etc.

Carl Thompson 10-04-2021 09:51 PM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
You might find this link useful. It's Jon Driscoll's correlation between aikido and daito-ryu techniques

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15096

Quote:

Projection No. 1 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage) ≈
Nikajo: Gyaku Dasuki
Ikkajo Uragata: Ryo Kata Hineri
Nikajo Uragata: Gyaku Dasuki
Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage) ≈
Ikkajo: Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, Ryo Hiji Gaeshi, Obi Otsohi
Nikajo: Suso Barai
Ikkajo Uragata: Kirikaeshi
Nikajo Uragata: Seoi Nage

Ellis Amdur 10-05-2021 11:02 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
An updated version of the article Carl linked can be found HERE.

Bernd Lehnen 10-07-2021 10:49 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
All of this can be very valuable from a historical point of view, may be it is. Surely it is for someone who likes to make analytical comparisons.
But for OSensei Ueshiba himself such a vast list and curriculum with attached names was possibly all secondary, if not even unnecessary ...

He apparently preferred to occupy himself with Takemusu, something very creative, which was possibly easier and paramount for him after he believed he had found access to something we today call "Aiki".

When his students exhausted themselves with such lists of techniques instead of concentrating on what he considered essential to them, one can understand that he would have outbursts of anger, every time he saw the execution of all this vane bogus ..

Vocabulary lists and grammar alone do not give you a feeling for language. They have limited uses, but nothing more.

Just a thought.

Best,
Bernd

jonreading 10-08-2021 06:29 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
I think that it is difficult to believe that O Sensei "invented" any techniques without significant (or direct) influence from his Daito Ryu knowledge (or one of his other martial experiences, for that matter). I would like to see Wikipedia's source for that claim...

Aikido reflects unique application of techniques and principles derived from Daito Ryu, and that in itself is an expression of artistry. There are only so many ways to twist a wrist or load a hip for a throw; eventually, fighting arts exploit similar movements.

In addition, considering the modern aikido curriculum is more strongly a product of Doshu and the students of O Sensei, it is even murkier water. We are guessing a unique origin of a technique observed by a student while performed by O Sensei. What may have been "invented" to those observers is an opinion based upon their experience and knowledge at the time of their observations.

Ueshiba was able to turn fighting techniques into unique expressions of power and skill and that is, in itself, amazing. Should it matter whether those techniques were original or derived from Daito Ryu? I don't think it should; but, I think there is/was pressure for aikido to separate from Daito Ryu and this is one of those lingering issues that still ties Daito Ryu to Aikido and that is a problem for some people.

I think Bernd is touching on a point that is uncomfortable with aikido people... If aikido is takemusu, but you need aiki to create takemusu... It makes it hard to realize what O Sensei was teaching, even if you mimicked the movements he showed as "techniques".

Take a boring arm bar technique. A average student learns 10 applications, a good student learns 100 applications, a great student learns 1000 applications. From one technique are born... Every martial art has an arm bar, do we concern ourselves with that when we watch an excellent UFC fighter apply an arm bar from a never-before-seen application?

MrIggy 11-25-2021 04:10 PM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Quote:

Steven Edward Angius wrote: (Post 355462)
Hi, everyone. I was on Wikipedia and as I was looking up Aikido techniques, the page mentioned that while many techniques from Daitō-ryū Aiki-Jujutsu are in Aikido, there are some techniques that were created by Morihei Ueshiba. I tried looking them up, but I could never find them. What are all the techniques he created?

Nobody knows because nobody has an exact idea of which techniques were in Takeda's Daito ryu while Ueshiba trained under him and especially before that period. Even the ones we can see today that look similar and you could say have influenced techniques in Aikido come mostly from Tokimune Takeda's Aikibudo in which he made adjustment and changes after his father passed away. Even some of those are different in places it seems like the ones in Aikido are almost "reinvented". It's simply easier to say that most Aikido techniques are influenced by Daito ryu and possibly some other arts. His koshinage seems to come from Yagyu Shingan ryu.

Here's an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ginK...nel=JasonWhite

3.13 to 7.00 are extract techniques from vol 5 and vol 6 (ueshiba advanced techniques)
Christian
from 7.00 to 13.00 are extract from soden vol 7 . 8 .9 (takeda sokaku advanced techniques)

from 13.00 to the end of video : taninzu dori (mutiple opponent from vol.5)

This might give you some idea of the issue.

mathewjgano 12-07-2021 09:49 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Quote:

Steven Edward Angius wrote: (Post 355462)
Hi, everyone. I was on Wikipedia and as I was looking up Aikido techniques, the page mentioned that while many techniques from Daitō-ryū Aiki-Jujutsu are in Aikido, there are some techniques that were created by Morihei Ueshiba. I tried looking them up, but I could never find them. What are all the techniques he created?

Techniques are just what you're moving, and as others have implied, that's in any lineage of movement. The human body moves in certain ways and at certain ranges of motion and all of them aren't invented. Maybe what they focus on is somehow a kind of creation compared to where they come from in the lineage, but ultimately, techniques (as far as I understand the word) are a form everyone has access to. I would guess that what he created had more to do with how he learned his own physiology more than anything else. I am guessing others not mentioned in history could do virtually anything he could do, too. Same for his teachers, and their teachers, and so on...on average.

My dad once told me that while living in North Africa he invented the bow without knowing what one was. He would have been around 5 and didn't realize that what he invented was ancient technology thousands of years before he was born. Did he invent it?

May I ask why you're so interested in talking about techniques he may have invented? My guess is he was a person who took lessons given, made insights, and in turn gave lessons for others to do the same with.

IvLabush 01-25-2022 03:25 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Quote:

Kristoffer Lawson wrote: (Post 355479)
The Daito Ryu club I visit definitely does iriminage. And a very effective one at that (and it's not one of those Ďaikijutsu' places that do aikido with punches).

Soden 5th book contains more than hundred techniques classified as irimi techniques so not only one irimi technique exists in DR/Aikido. You don't have to look for it in WWW however if you're curious check YouTube channel where we work on elder Ueshiba snapshots.

Setok 01-26-2022 02:25 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Quote:

Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: (Post 355551)
Soden 5th book contains more than hundred techniques classified as irimi techniques so not only one irimi technique exists in DR/Aikido. You don't have to look for it in WWW however if you're curious check YouTube channel where we work on elder Ueshiba snapshots.

Thanks. There are some practitioners from Ukraine who occasionally visit the dojo I go to in Helsinki (Sasuga), where they have long been teaching Soden techniques, as taught directly by their own teacher in a line that goes directly to Takeda. The old ways, before what is apparently an 'aikibudo' modernisation. Are you perhaps connected to that group?

IvLabush 01-26-2022 03:03 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
I'm from that study group and heard about Sasuga dojo. Now it seems separated from other Takumakai dojos however I can't be sure about that. Actually guys from Sasuga dojo came to Ukraine ones or twice but it's not so pleasant and sad story. If you'd like to contact me you may send DM.

Setok 01-27-2022 02:35 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Quote:

Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: (Post 355553)
I'm from that study group and heard about Sasuga dojo. Now it seems separated from other Takumakai dojos however I can't be sure about that. Actually guys from Sasuga dojo came to Ukraine ones or twice but it's not so pleasant and sad story. If you'd like to contact me you may send DM.

Yes, while one of them actually brought DR to Finland (and maybe Europe?) for the first time, they split from Takumakai, apparently as Takumakai itself was changing the curriculum, or following newer approaches and less of the soden.

IvLabush 01-27-2022 03:06 AM

Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques
 
Soden is nasty for most people came from other arts so it's not about curriculum change but wishes of students. In Ukraine we have one class of Soden weekly.


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