Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
I'm bringing over a blog I made on the AikiBlog that pretty much lays out the linearity of jin. Dan Harden has stated that jin is not linear. Grounds for a factual discussion/rebuttal by Dan.
In terms of the assertions about "Spiraling" that were included in Dan's statement on the Elbow Power thread and contrued as part of the jin comment, I'd add a question that starts at this point: "What 'energy' is being spiraled?" If something is being spiraled, fine, but it's not actually 'energy' as physically defined; so what is being 'spiraled' and how does that function as linear jin without being linear jin? Quote:
Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Here's my comment/question from the other thread. The language of this post refers to whether or not there is disagreement about straight vs curved, and is not in reference to the blog post pasted above.
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Hi Jonathan:
Well, those are good points so let me try to re-state while keeping in mind that my focus was on the linearity. I tried to save time, but yes, let's get down to finer detail. First of all, the real point is that there is a linear aspect of jin that goes from the dantien to the opponent. That's the main point. In many cases and many styles people deliberately hold the elbow down so that there is a clear channel from dantien to elbow to hand because it assists in the conveyance of the force (less stress on the joints). In terms of the lines from the ground, I had a choice in terms of physics: I could say that the ground powers the dantien (the hip part is there, but let's simplify) and the movement of the dantien is the main power of the jin that connects with the opponent. OR I could say that the body as a whole works as a singular frame (this perspective is also a valid viewpoint) and the actual jin is a vector resultant that starts somewere below the dantien. Either way it's stated, though, there is a *linear* force on the opponent: that's just basic "jin", which I've actually heard native Chinese describe as a 'force vector'. 'Spiraling' may or may not affect the *power* of the jin, depending upon how it's done, but whatever effects spiraling may have they are apart from the core jin itself. The jin is a linear force. Is that clearer? Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
And now my reply to the blog post itself. I like this presentation of "ki of earth" and how it is used in the body. But, Mike, isn't this a new interpretation of the terminology?
We got into this a bit on another thread: Here I tried to point out why I feel like your current explanation is different from what you used to say. If you've changed your point of view, that's fine with me. I don't think it invalidates anything you did before or anything. I think it just means you are changing your mental framework. One can change frame of reference without that being a reflection on the expression of the subject matter itself. I hope you see it that way too. To sum up, the body should be used to channel the "universal" forces (meaning they don't come from our volition, but from the universe's own apparent volition) of weight and grf into its movements. Internal pressure from the breath can be used to do this. If that sentence is correct, then that internal correctness is a separate point from whether or not I assign grf to "earth" and weight to "heaven" as you did on the judoforum post or if I call both of the m "earth" as you have in the above blog post. In other words how I describe what I do in my own words carries weight and is important, even if how I register my concepts to the "classics" is also an important, separate point. |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Hi Mike, much clearer-- in fact I would personally prefer this:
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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FWIW Mike |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Mike |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
At this point I don't care if "heaven" is breath, air pressure, gravity, or whatever-- the main point is not changed: "the desirable thing to do is to use gravity and ground-support instead of muscular strength." So I won't pursue another thread myself.
But I do want to say one thing. I am sure some will write me off for my "one direction, one magnitude" phrasing. I stand by it, but let me emphasize that in terms of motor commands and application, I would never suggest things like "a groundpath only has one direction of force." To touch a person "with the ground" goes hand in hand with receiving, so yes of course it is a 2-way street. |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Mike |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
This is what I know about forces:
A force has
External forces on a human body involved in some interaction with another human body include are gravity, friction of the ground, the surface normal force of the ground and one or more forces applied by the other human body. These forces have different directions, magnitudes and points of application. Even when the net force vector on the body is zero, so that the center of gravity remains stationary, the forces would still put stress on the body, compressing or stretching it. When work lines of opposing forces don't coincide (like the friction of the ground and a horizontal push from the other human), the forces would apply a torque to the body, which could result in torsion and/or rotation of the body, even when its center of gravity remains stationary. In short: A force is linear (it has a work line). When it's work line does not go through the center of gravity of the body that the force applies to, it also generates a torque around its center of gravity. Then spiralling. What does that mean? In my understanding it describes some motion trajectory. The shape of a trajectory can be very different from the direction of forces. For instance, the moon orbits the earth in a circle by gravity pulling it straight to earth and with mechanisms like joints you can get all kinds of motion trajectories, even though forces are always linear. So I don't understand how linearity of forces and spiralling motion would contradict each other. |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Sure, that sort of restates my comment that you can lift your big toe when you push someone, but the push is still linear. Jin is linear no matter what you do in your body; gravity (for all practical purposes in this discussion) linearly holds the moon to the Earth. If Ikeda Sensei demonstrates the effects of jin in methods that mainly say "connect the body, move the dantien, but not "connect the body and then perform spirals", people need to grasp the clue: the essential relationship between moving the Uke and moving the dantien is linear. There are a lot more ramifications to all this than the simple topic in this discussion, but I'll start a different thread to cover the most important one when I get a chance. FWIW Mike Sigman |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Well I sure don't have any disagreement with what you've said, Mike. But, that by itself doesn't mean that I disagree with anyone else in particular. I don't get Erick Mead's angular momentum descriptions, but lots of people don't get them... that's the only thing that comes to mind that I can't get behind. The reason I don't get turned off by "spiral" talk in general is that, per the above discussion, I still would agree with any kind of statements like:
When one purifies the body, one begins to move according to natural spirals that are byproducts of our human body plan. This pure or simplified movement can transmit extrinisc forces like the grf throughout the body continuously, without interruption or loss of fidelity. As a beginner, I should remain open to things I can't do, and for all I know that includes things like chansijin as well as having these spirals of the body take on a more deterministic influence on the directions of force my body tends to prefer to produce. But I am open to learning any points of view that my body doesn't tell me are bad.. |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Mike posted a video a few months back demonstrating a "flexible frame". I saw this as a demonstration of connection between two points of contact on the body: an incoming force (i.e a push) and a point of stability (the ground). The point he was trying to show, I believe, is that there should be a constant, reciprocal balancing of forces between these two points. There should be as little impediment as possible in the medium through which that force travels: the body. The "purest" connection between these points is, for all intents and purposes, a straight line. Of course, as the force travels through a human body, the actual "line" of force is constantly changing, but conceptually, it's always a straight line. This is the fundamental condition for "jin". The degree to which these points are connected relates to the purity of Jin. It doesn't matter what art,weapon or form someone is working with: Their degree of mastery of jin depends on how unified these two points of contact are. Spiralling is essentially an exercise for conditioning the body/mind to connect these two points. However, if one uses spiralling, the connection is not a "pure" as it could be. There is always some "gross" movement involved. Anyway, this is my reading of the thing. I could be completely wrong and have no problem with anyone destroying this description and explaining the whole thing clearly for dummies like myself. Regardless, It's a topic worthy of discussion. IMO. Regards. |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Regards, Mike |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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You did indeed catch the general point and you stated it well. The only disagreement is about last comment on the purity and 'spiraling'. However, I'll address that in a separate thread that should, hopefully, logically dispell the myths and rumours which befuddle people trying to get a foothold on the questions. Until very recently I didn't realize how far afield the lack of facts had slowed progress. Mike Sigman |
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I understand where you're coming from now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Regards |
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more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
OK I have something now for the real meat of the linear/spiral discussion. If I need to be clued into what started this attempted discussion (I may have missed it) then please let me know. But so far as I know, these comments still are relevant. Although, it isn't much improvement over what Dave wrote. At any rate this describes the fact that we can volitionally control our force output across time, as well as the fact that our body plan may "prefer" or influence that temporally-varying force output. Mike, this may all be silly until we get into your ramifications you alluded to.
I. What is meant by "linear?" The term linear refers to the rate of change of a function across a domain. It means that the rate of change is constant. I take it we are talking about the direction of force produced. Of course at any one moment in time, the force is going in a straight line-- just like at any one value on the x-axis, a single, defined rate of change (derivative; slope of the function) exists for y=x as well as for y=sin(x). But it doesn't mean y=sin(x) is linear-- because that discrete value for rate of change varies across the x axis, unlike for y=x. So-- when one says the force produced is linear and not something to be described in other ways (spiral? torsional?), what exactly is being argued? That there is no change in direction of the force across time? Of course no one could argue that, because we can change direction at will. So, we need to nail that down. II. The rolling ball question. Here is a series of scenerios that might be very illuminating to discuss. 1. A ball rolls across a table. The ball produces a vertical, downward, obviously linear force. The point of application of the force shifts along the table as the ball rolls. Simple. 2. A sticky ball of the same mass rolls across the table. I know there will be additional heat terms and a deceleration, but this is still a bit mysterious to me. The downward weight is the same, but does the net downward force change? (The "upstroke" on the trailing side pulling upward via the adhesive? Or I guess that pull is tangential so it is purely in the horizontal decelerating direction? Never mind, #3 and #4 below are the fun part!) 3. The same sticky ball rolls while deflating as it goes along. Now it is getting interesting. The deflation action trades internal pressure for upward pull, and there is significant reduction in downward force upon the table. The center of mass of the ball is in fact going through a braked fall while the ball rolls. 4. Now imagine situation #3 without the flat table. We can have a curved table, with sections of curvature that match the ball's radius of curvature. The table can be poorly secured to walls or foor. The 'table' surface can in some spots be a pretty severe incline, like close to vertical-- it's ok b/c the ball is sticky. Also now, the ball can breathe, not just deflate. So what happens? The table is going to get pretty worked by the ball's rotating, expanding/contracting grip. Will the forces be linear? I think the table will get pressed and pulled (linear forces?) as well as torqued. So what is the point? When I hold my bokken, it is like the table, and I am the ball (the floor is another table). I am a pretty cool ball though because of things like hands. As I expand and contract, sink and rise, my tissues coil about as we discussed, being the nature of the human body. That bokken experiences some twisting forces that are fun to use on humans too. So how do we fit this into the conceptual framework of linear forces? |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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Are you including gravitational force as a constant? It seems like a lot of people do not use gravitational force when they describe what we experience as linear movement. Almost like "out of sight, out of mind." Regards, Marc Abrams |
Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?
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Mike |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
Hi Marc, not sure I get you. I certainly agree gravitational acceleration is a constant, so the gravitational force for any given mass would be constant since the force is a function of the mass.
From a more "feeling" POV (more practical, less analytic), gravity is never out of mind for me. I feel like I am sandwiched between two things. Or anti-sandwiched, hard to say. The point is ground and gravity being present together in the body and opposite in direction, creating a physical frame of reference. Mike, I guess torque as the result of the interplay of 2 opposing forces is just considered as being not at this level in your framework? As in, we should take it step by step? I guess I should just wait and see how you mean to present it. This is all a little difficult because I hold my bokken and feel this torsion. I can feel that it is a direct effect of what is happening in my body, and at the same time I don't disagree with your basic examples like holding a brick with one hand. I like your description of a resultant vector that is linear and convey's the ground's support, but at the same time I know that you recognize and will eventually talk about things like the hand wanting to turn over in funekogi undo: Quote:
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Mike |
Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"
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Breakdown of my thought process which has been dissected here: when you put conscious effort into moving relaxedly, trying to let the ground's strength replace your own, it is tempting to call the entirety of the result 'ground strength.' Any/all the forces that an attacker experiences when they touch you after you have practiced something like this can be tempting to be referred to with a single name. (when I do this he twists and moves to the left.. one might be tempted to say the ground strength is causing both) But in fact there can be multiple things going on inside you that are the causes of those forces. If the way your tissues are connected when you move with relaxation and settled balance, in order to allow ground to go through you, causes your limbs (or your partner) to twist, the cause of the twist is different from the cause of the push. One is the internal connectivity and internal state of tensions... the other is the ground. |
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