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-   -   Did Aikido die with O'Sensei? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16128)

aikishrine 05-05-2009 01:13 PM

Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
I was wondering what people think about this question, and if you think that the only real Aikido was done by O'SENSEI, or if you think that we truly are doing Aikido today.

David Maidment 05-05-2009 01:50 PM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'SENSEI?
 
A good question, but then you also have to ask whether what O-Sensei taught/practiced when he was younger was Aikido.

As he was constantly refining the art, was it only 'Aikido' when he died? And if he lived for another decade, would what we now consider to be his final state of Aikido not be classed as 'real Aikido'?

It's a pot of worms not worth worrying about, in my mind :p

Maarten De Queecker 05-05-2009 04:13 PM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Brian Northrup wrote: (Post 229593)
I was wondering what people think about this question, and if you think that the only real Aikido was done by O'SENSEI, or if you think that we truly are doing Aikido today.

I'm going to have to say "no". As I see it, martial arts are in constant development by anyone who practices it. People adding new insights and variants to techniques is what keeps aikido (or any martial art) interesting; if it were to grow stale, that would mean that it is perfect but as far as I know, no such art exists.

There is no such thing as "real" aikido. We all follow the aikido of our teachers but in time we all add our own views to techniques and discover new ways of executing techniques because no human body is unique.

lbb 05-05-2009 04:38 PM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Yes. It's dead. Move along, now, nothing to see.

IOW, what David said. If it is dead, ain't nothin' you can do about it; you can copy/learn from what's there but you can't resurrect the dead. Look at what's in front of you and judge it on its own merits as either worth doing or not.

AsimHanif 05-06-2009 12:53 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
I would say Ueshiba Sensei's own, unique aikido departed with him.

mickeygelum 05-06-2009 06:51 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
I am of the opinion that Ueshiba's Aikido/Aikibudo died with him. The concepts and principles that he transmitted to others did not, hence, the varied perspectives. The observations, perspectives and character of those that surrounded him, influenced what we have today.
I am also of the opinion that Aikido/Aikibudo is the most misunderstood martial art that exists. This misunderstanding is a result of individual perspective.

Just my thoughts.

Train well,

Mickey

Aikibu 05-06-2009 08:06 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Yup and Christianity died with Christ...right?!?!?

I guess there's an argument there somewhere. :)

Until I personally resolve it I think I'll continue to practice. :)

William Hazen

AsimHanif 05-06-2009 08:34 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Wow William...why'd you have to go there:-) Now I'll be pondering (for the umpteenth time) did the practice (dao) that Jesus Christ profess/inbody leave with Him as well.
!?!

dps 05-06-2009 08:38 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 229639)
Yup and Christianity died with Christ...right?!?!?

No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way O'Sensei did.

No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way Christ did.

David

Mark Uttech 05-06-2009 09:04 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Onegaishimasu. In the wake of Christ was the Holy Spirit. In the wake of O Sensei was the spirit of Aikido.

In gassho

Mark

Aikibu 05-06-2009 09:28 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
This topic could go to 50 pages!!! :D

William Hazen

mickeygelum 05-06-2009 10:02 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
See what you started...:D

mickeygelum 05-06-2009 10:11 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way O'Sensei did.
I am no authority, but,I am sure the current Doshu might disagree..:disgust:

Quote:

No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way Christ did.
How would you know? :confused:

L. Camejo 05-07-2009 02:28 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Can someone define "real" Aikido for me?

If Aiki-Do is supposed to be "The Way/Path of Aiki", we know that Aiki existed long before Ueshiba M. and still exists after he has moved on (e.g. as expressed in Daito Ryu).

So ones answer will be determined by whether ones concept of Aiki - Do is limited to Ueshiba M.'s personal expression of it or whether one is truly interested in understanding Aiki as a concept unto itself that Ueshiba himself said he "discovered."

Just a thought.

Best to you.

LC

Walter Martindale 05-07-2009 02:32 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Michael Gelum wrote: (Post 229650)
I am no authority, but,I am sure the current Doshu might disagree..:disgust:

How would you know? :confused:

Hmm. Chinese restaurant, October 2003, Doshu, our shihan, bunch of Canadians. Q&A session.
Hmm. Not going to go there... Doshu has lived Aikido for his lifetime. He is not Oo Sensei (is that Hepburn romaji? Don't know how to put a bar over the 'O') but he does think deeply about Aikido... O-Sensei grew up in an entirely different world from what we live in now. When O Sensei was born, the telephone was a new invention, nobody had flown, and if you wanted to go from one end of (say) Japan to the other, it was a very long march... Now, well... We are all products of our environment.
W

Cyrijl 05-07-2009 06:55 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
I have yet to see any other martial art rely so much on its founder and have so many practitioners that doubt themselves. This idea that Ueshiba "aikido" (whatever that means) was the only real or true or (insert description) aikido seems a little ridiculous.

Even though I don't practice aikido anymore, I'd assume form the very fact that Ueshiba taught others that he wanted the art to continue. Since he also seems like a rather intelligent person, he would have known the art would change and evolve.

So many of these topics seem to revolve around this idea of 'original intent.' Even if your aikido looked and behaved exactly like Ueshiba's, you would still lack the life experience and social culture which gave him the understanding. For all of the great feats he may or may have not accomplished, he was someone who imparted what he knew to others so they could carry on.

mickeygelum 05-07-2009 10:02 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Hmm. Chinese restaurant, October 2003, Doshu, our shihan, bunch of Canadians. Q&A session.
Hmm. Not going to go there... Doshu has lived Aikido for his lifetime. He is not Oo Sensei (is that Hepburn romaji? Don't know how to put a bar over the 'O') but he does think deeply about Aikido... O-Sensei grew up in an entirely different world from what we live in now. When O Sensei was born, the telephone was a new invention, nobody had flown, and if you wanted to go from one end of (say) Japan to the other, it was a very long march... Now, well... We are all products of our environment.
W
Really..:eek:

Mickey

Joe McParland 05-07-2009 10:23 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Joseph Connolly wrote: (Post 229673)
I have yet to see any other martial art rely so much on its founder and have so many practitioners that doubt themselves. This idea that Ueshiba "aikido" (whatever that means) was the only real or true or (insert description) aikido seems a little ridiculous.

Even though I don't practice aikido anymore, I'd assume form the very fact that Ueshiba taught others that he wanted the art to continue. Since he also seems like a rather intelligent person, he would have known the art would change and evolve.

So many of these topics seem to revolve around this idea of 'original intent.' Even if your aikido looked and behaved exactly like Ueshiba's, you would still lack the life experience and social culture which gave him the understanding. For all of the great feats he may or may have not accomplished, he was someone who imparted what he knew to others so they could carry on.

There is one argument that states:

(1) It was O-Sensei's circumstances---plus whatever else---that led to his realizations (aka, "original intent").

(2) It it was O-Sensei's circumstances that shaped how he expressed and communicated those realizations.

(3) The realizations themselves are independent of those circumstances and can be transmitted without them.

Of course, there is another argument that says I am full of shit :D

Ron Tisdale 05-07-2009 11:07 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
LOL Joe, that was funny!
B,
R

Cyrijl 05-07-2009 12:06 PM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Joe, I don't really get your point. And then I reread my post and thought maybe my point wasn't clear.

I think wondering "if" all the time in regards to what should be and should not be aikido, especially in relation to Ueshiba is a waste of time.

You basically get out of aikido part of what you put in. If we found out tomorrow what Ueshiba did some horrible deed, we wouldn't just reject everything he had ever done. So, for that, I think there is way too much hand wringing worrying about intentions we can never know.

lbb 05-09-2009 07:32 PM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Joseph Connolly wrote: (Post 229683)
You basically get out of aikido part of what you put in. If we found out tomorrow what Ueshiba did some horrible deed, we wouldn't just reject everything he had ever done.

Well, some people would, but that's called "being neurotic".

I think you're right -- aikido has this bizarre and IMO unhealthy fundamentalist streak a mile wide. I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.

Arashi Kumomura 05-10-2009 03:40 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 229795)
I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.

Haha!

I think O-Sensei's philosophies of Aikido have not been passed on to the vast majority of modern practitioners. The form, the technique, and the understanding may be comparable, but his notions were sophisticated and spiritual and though his attitude and spirit may have a residual impact on how we practice, I think it's more deference than replication reflected in most of our forms of Aikido today.

So, the phisical side of Aikido: I don't think so.
The mental/spiritual side: maybe.

O-Sensei was a wise, charismatic man (so I've read) and I think learning more about him helps us learn more about Aikido. He wasn't preaching a religion (or anything so solid), so I'm not sure that it would be fair to say that Aikido died with him.

To ultimately answer the question, I don't think true Aikido died with O-Sensei, but people who practice the full essence (the mental, physical, and spiritual sides) of what O-Sensei believed Aikido to be are very rare.
:D

Buck 05-10-2009 09:34 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 229795)
... aikido has this bizarre and IMO unhealthy fundamentalist streak a mile wide. I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.

WOW! That is a strongly prejudicial, insensitive and mean spirited thing to say about men, it is insultive to me. It doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. Maybe it does, as it shows maybe Aikido did die with him. :(

Talk about a bizarre unhealthy fundamentalist streak or should I say stereotype that seems to be alive and well. Don't you agree Mary. :eek:

Buck 05-10-2009 09:46 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
I have pointed to this in many threads talking about original Aikido, and finding the origins of Aikido. I don't think it is dead, just purposely shoved under the rug and lost in the face of egos and gaining fame of others (the old pay-off in being samurai and samurai culture - to gain fame as being the champion - that still underpins Japanese martial arts).

dps 05-10-2009 10:14 AM

Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 229795)
. I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.

You have to be over sixty and have gray hair. I've got six years to go. :)

David


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