VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
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1. His primary and main influence was Sokaku Takeda and Daito ryu. 2. Footage of Ueshiba into his old age shows stock Daito ryu techniques, with atemi. 3. Driscoll has a corollary here on aikiweb showing a high percentage equivalence with Daito ryu. 4. After viewing other arts, Ueshiba would state, we'd do it this way with aiki. 5. Mochizuki lamented, not the fact that Ueshiba did other arts, but rather that he pared down the Daito ryu techniques. 6. Koshinage and tanto dori did not come from Morihei Ueshiba. 7. A set curriculum of techniques did not come from Morihei Ueshiba. Everything Ueshiba did after meeting Takeda, was done with aiki. Aiki being the body changing method as taught to him by Sokaku Takeda. When Ueshiba could not be pushed over by Tenryu, it wasn't because Ueshiba knew the secret of awase. (A: I know the secret of aiki) When asked why no one could do what he could, Ueshiba didn't answer that it was because they misunderstood awase. (A: You do not understand in yo ho) When students listened to him, they didn't complain that they had a hard time understanding awase. (A: Floating Bridge of Heaven, heaven/earth/man, Izanagi/Izanami, inyo, fire/water, etc See Chris Li's great translations for information) Now, if we want to talk Modern Aikido and awase, that's a whole different story. But, tossing Morihei Ueshiba into the mix with awase as "an understanding of the aspect of AIKIDO that makes it unique among martial arts" ... well, I would say that aiki is the unique aspect. |
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While I'm told that there are IP/aiki training methods in koryu, some existing, some extinct (the training methods), it would be rather unique to find Ueshiba taking one small technique from another art when he's stuck to 99.9999% of Daito ryu because the art itself was all about IP/aiki. Still, yes, I do consider that it is a possibility. :) Quote:
Seriously, that's a long, involved, detailed answer that spans decades of work from a multitude of people. The end of that research shows a conclusion to what I stated. It is complex. It is rather striking in its simplicity. At the end of the day, it's still the truth. |
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Not so sure that koshinage has its origin in Yagyu-ryu. I think there is a good case that it in fact comes from the Soden waza taught by Sokaku Takeda. But I must admit I've never seen the Yagyu techinque attributed to koshinage. Maybe in biased toward Daito-ryu...if you could a link to he Yagyu technique would be helpful. I would love to see it. Take care. :0) All the Best, ChrisW |
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Hey Cliff,
I read it along with his other article and e-budo as well. I'm still not sure. Maybe Takeda stole it from Yagyu...guess we will never know for sure. Sorry for the thread drift guys. Take Care. Thanks, ChrisW PS I like the idea that Takeda and Ueshiba, aikified what ever they felt like after seeing it. :0) |
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Hello Mark
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I understand you keep plenty of references, so I'd be interested in the Mochizuki quote if you have it. Quote:
http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html Regards Carl |
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Greg |
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I don't mind being wrong. :)
Daito ryu = guruma. Ueshiba did? From what I've seen, guruma. So, where exactly did koshi nage come from if Ueshiba didn't do it? Weapons. Ueshiba doing weapons does not look like any koryu I know of or have seen. In fact, people keep trying to find the koryu he took things from. How about we take Ueshiba at his word ... with aiki, we would do it this way. Which leads us straight back to Daito ryu aiki, now in weapons. Courtesy of Sokaku Takeda. My comments about awase are that it isn't what made Ueshiba's aikido unique. It was IP/aiki. Awase was for Modern Aikido. :) The Mochizuki quote ... I'll have to dig, but I'm pretty sure I have it. Somewhere in archives. :) Thanks, Mark |
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YUUP...(in my loudest DaveHester voice)!!! If Takeda could make up pretzel waza on the spot...then I can make up words!!! :0) Take Care, ChrisW |
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
1980 Black Belt Issue Vol 18 No 4. Article by David Orange, Jr. :)
Isn't a direct quote from Mochizuki. Paragraph reads: Mochizuki does not wish to put himself on Uyeshiba's level, but he wonders why Uyeshiba employed only about 15 of the 350 techniques of daitoryu aikijujitsu in his aikido. "Between two well trained opponents," Mochizuki said, "a punch or kick or throw will have little effecct. the strongest one on the ground will win." Therefore, he places emphasis on judo. Mark |
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Chris |
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Link to a Noma dojo photo (1930s) of the Founder doing koshinage
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink |
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Not that there's anything wrong with awase... In any case, I think that the argument that Ueshiba made substantial changes to Daito-ryu on a technical level, or the argument that he incorporated principles from many different martial arts of which Daito-ryu was one, is a hard one to support these days. Best, Chris |
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
This is how Koshinage is done in the Iwama lineage at present, see here for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOkH7USu_yw .Kuroiwa and Nishio were doing their own hip throws that were obviously different.
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So do you feel that what Saito did in Iwama and what kuroiwa was doing at Hombu different? Kata garuma, koshinage...apples and oranges, or grannysmith, macintosh? I see in the Noma link what you mean, kata garuma, DR yes. Maybe I am just hung up on terminology, like aikinage, kokyunage. Thanks. :0) Take Care, ChrisW |
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Just to be clear about the name, in the Iwama system there is a specific technique called Koshinage. This is the technique demonstrated by Saito sensei in the video and this is how an Iwama practitioner would call the move the Founder is doing in the photo. It's not a generic name to the family of heap throws.
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If Osensei only employed 15 out of 350 Daito-ryu techniques, that makes the repertoire of techniques he left among his students in Iwama shockingly Daito-ryu-free: Quote:
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...tanley-pranin/ Also Osensei himself said: Quote:
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Osensei left dozens in Iwama. Basically, what Alexander Sensei said stands. Morihiro Saito Shihan (interviewed by Stanley Pranin): Quote:
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I also wonder how you define awase. Like koshinage, it is just a word in Japanese that is not tied to a specific way of doing things. I can use awase with the staff in my office when we share the photocopier. People using the term arrange it with other words to show what they mean by it and in the context of Alexander Sensei's articles, I don't think he meant the overly compliant practice that plagues much of modern aikido. Another way of looking at awase is as musubi (connection). Regards Carl |
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What Morihiro Saito stated about Daito ryu is misinformed. Kokyu ho is taught (although it is not called that) When doing a technique correctly, you should NOT clash with Uke (although to an inexperienced observer it may look like that). And as for effectiveness, well , I thought Saito would have a bit more class. That"s just stirring the pot.
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