Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 2, 2004:

Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?

• I don't do aikido
• Yes
• No
  

Here are the current results.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

As with most all of these polls, the answer is "It depends."

We must really understand "the rules" and follow them so we understand (very deeply) how to break them properly.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I think it can be done "cleanly" so to speak but one would have to be careful. Many pitfalls here. The most important thing is to be open with the folks from the dojo so evryone knows. Don't make it some secret, people get more upset later when they find out that you haven't been straight with them.

The second thing is to be very careful about favoring the new partner either on the mat or especially off the mat in the running of the dojo. It may be that you will be in a successful long lasting relationship, in which case over time, it will be natural for ones partner to be involved. But I can't count how many times in have heard about some relatively junior person throwing his / her weight around based on the fact that they had the Sensei's ear because they were the "partner of the moment". K.O.D. Kiss of Death for morale at the dojo.

My own partner does Aikido, we met on-line a year ago and we are as happy as can be, but she continues to primarily train with her own teacher, my friend Kimberly Richardson Sensei, just so we don't run into problems. Sort of like the old advice about not teaching your spouse how to drive.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

[i]I voted no for the reasons quoted above by Mr. Ledyard. Although, as with most of these "open ended" questions there are too many variables for a absolute answer. No is easier, but it could work as yes in a perfect world. (We just, all too often fall short of that perfection)
Lan

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Many professionals have ethical codes which specifically prohibit mixing business and pleasure, the so called dual relationship - and with good reason. The relationship between sensei and student (particularly the serious student) can be extraordinarily intimate. Because the master possesses stature in the form of their knowledge, skill and personality, there is a distinct power differential that can influence the student's behavior both on and off the mat. When the product of that interaction is martial skill, development of character and a sense of social responsibility, then the sensei and his other students can relax in the virtue of their art. However, when sexual intimacy is blended into this relationship, the purpose of practice and more importantly, who is benefitting from it becomes less clear. Herein lies the conundrum. One does not have to look further than the fields of psychology/psychiatry (psychotherapy), law, education, etc. to see examples of the fall out from these kind of blended - and flawed - relationships. Obviously, there are some who are sufficiently evolved to pull this off, but they are, I reckon, the exception to the rule.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Why not? I know of some who have ended up marrying one of their students!

Good luck to them!

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Well, hmmm. George dates his own student. I voted no, but in all truth met both of my wives (my first and second) on an Aikido mat as well as one I dated for 7 years trying to talk her into becoming the first. I think the important thing is sincerity.

Isn't the real question here about the instructor who sees his female students as prey? Fair game? I once knew an instructor who had as a personal goal to sleep with all his female students, and for the most part did. I found that despicable. Teachers should not abuse their special position of trust.

And before we get too far along it might be pointed out that a large number of shihans are married to former students.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

please don't forget there are plenty of women teachers out there as well!

Having seen first-hand some very destructive results of teachers dating student's; I recommend against it in general. However, if it is extremely serious, then it can work out and work out very well. Just no dallying around with students without sincerity and honor. There is a power imbalance, and that in and of itself is a problem.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

It doesn't start out serious, so you can't make that judgement then. It starts out with attraction!

The way to avoid the imbalance (and I speak from experience) is that your partner must acknowledge your position in the dojo and you must leave that behind as you walk out the door. In fact, you tend to find that the balance swings the other way outside of the dojo!!! :D

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I'm with Mark. Relationships are only one of the many things you leave at the door. If you can work aiki into your relationship without working your relationship into aikido, you should be fine. In fact, better than fine. Love and harmony, right?

One idea I've heard is that when we all don the white pj's. we effectively become sexless. Gender and sexuality are other things to leave at the door. This might be more "ought" than "is" in some places. Hopefully not.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Rachel, have you ever heard the old saying, 'When Mama aint happy, ain't nobody happy.'? I think I've seen some very senior people dealing with some disgruntled wives (and husbands) over these years. My point is that the balance you speak of is a natural one for those who are lucky enough to find true and lasting love with someone who also embraces Aikido training. Too many teachers want the 'sensei' experience to carry on off the mat. Dating is one place it does not belong.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I'm in the camp that says that an instructor shouldn't use the class as a place to troll for dates/sex. But, if two rational single adults meet in class and they can work it out so off-mat doesn't interfere with on-mat and vice versa then it could work out nicely. I've seen it work. My instructor is married to the dojo's senior student (she's senior because she's been there since the beginning...nothing hinky about her rank or position). I think it brings a nice dynamic to the dojo. It feels like we've all been taken in as part of the family.

Bronson

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Well, I'm passing on this one. Inasmuch as aikido implies a morality, it, as in most Eastern philosophies, takes life on face value. I am on my guard when ever I heard "should". It always means someone's interpretation supercedes someone else's. The question is biased. "yes" may mean a pair 'might' date or may mean a student 'should' date sensei (?all students!!!!). "No" may mean a pair can date but ill-advised, or may mean "never". "yes" & "no" for this question is bound to be insufficient or misunderstood. In an increasingly confused world, it is best to learn from Aikido and O Sensei - be master of your world and the universe will follow. "Should" & "should not" may be the root of many an offense.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Well.. I'm one of the guys who ended up marrying a student, so what does that make me? :D
In all fairness, though, when we met, we were both students, and were married before I received my yudansha and started teaching on a regular basis.
I think we do pretty good job of keeping our personal stuff off the mat, though we have certainly had to work through it at times.

I agree that "trolling for dates" at the dojo is not a good thing, but it can be hard to avoid in a university setting ;)
That said, I don't think that either my wife or I were looking at the time... we got along well, and after knowing each other for a few months, I just couldn't help but ask her out. I think we were each old enough, too, to be responsible about it.

-jon

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I voted "no" only because of the potential for abuse. The way this question was phrased made me think of that first, and also of a massive difference in age or maturity between the two people involved -- not so good.

I do agree, though, that if the two people are mature, are able to keep the attraction where it belongs and the unequal sensei/student relationship where *it* belongs, then more power to them.

Heather

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Free Choice. It can end destructively or it can end nicely. But people have to make their own mistakes/decisions (and they will).

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Or it might not end! :)

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Hopefully.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

All marriages end. By either divorce or death :dead:

Bronson, your little ray of sunshine ;)

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Wow, well, that was the first thing I read this morning upon waking up with my coffee and if it hasnt inspired me at the start of a new relationship :freaky:

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

IMHO, NO!

IMHO, an instructor-student relationship is not on an equal footing, thus not very healthy. Also, it can set up some bad feeling, jealousy, and favoritism in the Dojo with the potential of destroying the entire school.

I think we need to protect our students, even from ourselves, and have some sense of ethics.

Theoretically, it may work. If an instructor has strong feeling about a student, they may want to first consider severing the instructor-student relationship before dating. In almost all professional fields, including teaching, there are ethical rules against dating your students. It just doesn't seem to work out well in the long run.

IMHO, the loss of ethics in the martial arts in general has really hindered its growth.

I know this is a very strong soapbox for me. Thus endeth the sermon. He gets off his soapbox and puts it temporarily away. He heads for the Dojo to work out his frustrations that this is even a question we have to ask.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

My sensei's wife was a former student, one of his first i believe. His sensei is married to a student. There are several dojo members married to each other.

If it was me involved, i think i would try to find another teacher. I once dated my karate teacher and when it ended, so did our ability to train together...

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

(Carefully placing soapbox; stepping up onto soapbox)

Instructors should not date students. Period. People meeting on the mat when both are students is another matter. This is a hot issue with me, and I realize I am very black/white about it.

(Stepping down off soapbox; returning to Lynn - thanks for the image!).

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I believe that it depends upon the instructor. If the instructor is unable to keep from holding someone in a special position in a class, than should he even be instructing at all? And I as well agree that all of the issues that the instructor and student have off the mat should be left off of the mat. There is no reason that a good instructor should not be allowed to have a healthy relationship with a student.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

So by your reasoning, all those Sensei-Student husband and wife couples should never have existed?

I hope nobody listens to you. What the world needs more is love!

;)

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I have to admit the results of this poll surprised me. I tend to agree with Lynn on this one. As an instructor whether you admit it or not, you are in a position of power. If both are intent on pursuing the relationship, I think the appropriate thing to is for the student/teacher relationship to end.
This also brings up the point of instructors dating parents of students. I'm a little uncomfortable with that one too. I guess I'm a conservative liberal:-)

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

The aspect of instructor being in a position of power has been brought up several times in this thread. While I'd agree with this in the context of a school or even a college, it seems to me that it's not quite the same in an Aikido dojo. If we're talking about adult students, then it is my understanding that these days most Aikido dojos do not exhibit the sort of "sensei cult", a complete submission of students to the sensei's authority, that would've indeed put the sensei into a position of power. If this assessment is fair, then I'd say that two reasonable and responsible adults could maintain a relationship without undermining the dojo's atmosphere.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Hey Daniel - good point. I would say though that power has many connotations. It doesn't have to be overtly authoritarian. But if you are the person in a position of leadership that is also a position of power. So in that case you would have people looking to you for guidance. As stated in another thread, you may never know the full mentality or maturity of people in the dojo. Some come looking for pie in the sky and anyone who is in a position of leadership may fit the bill. It is easy to take advantage of that situation although the instructor him or herself may not fully be aware. It is totally plausible that the instructor may think the other half is capable of making a rational decision but in fact the other half may be infatuated by the instructor's position. The instructor has to be the mature one at all times.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Hi Asim,

I think the poll's question is only relevant with regards to an instructor who will not willingly take advantage of a student who's as infatuated with the instructor as you describe - to a point of inability of responsible and rational behavior. Assuming this type of an instructor, I would venture to argue that it should be possible for such a person to distinguish the situation where he/she might potentially exploit a student in a vulnerable position, avoid pursuing this relationship and attempt to neutralize the situation without harming particular student or the dojo. I absolutely agree with your demand for the instructor to be the mature one at all times; I'd just add to this that the sign of maturity in a situation like this could very well be the instructor sitting down with the student for an honest talk about each other's reasons for pursuing the relationship and expectations from it.
I guess I'm just trying to find a way to approach this problem from the perspective of presumption of innocence rather than a imposing a sweeping ban to prevent unfortunate incidents.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

:rolleyes:

and apparently also a celibate monk also.

Some of my students are older than me, some of my students are younger. Some are married, some are not. Some have a lot more experience in leadership or other areas than I do. Some don't.

It would be fairly arrogant of me to assume greater maturity based on having a higher aikido rank and experience on the mat.

It's hardly the same thing as teacher-student relationship in a University.
No one gets a grade or a degree that could affect their financial future and sought after career. A black belt from the other schools in town wears just as well.

I have never dated any of my students, but life is too short and love too rare to be excluding the right someone just because they happen to express interest in something I am putting a lot of time and passion in.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Can such relationships work out positively. Sure. Saotome sensei is married to a former student and has been for years. Is their potential for abuse-absolutely. One former high ranking 6th dan was kicked out of aikido for dating a minor (I don't know how extensive the relationship was). Unfortunately, with people being people such relationships are frought with risks-sexual harrassment, disruption of the dojo, criminal prosecution, psychological/physical abuse, child abuse/pedophilia-to name a few. None of which would help the art of aikido. If you are going to do it, select your partners carefully and get it in writing and keep it above ground. I'm aware of one instructor that was married and dating a student. His wife found out and his shihan had to intervene. Things can get real ugly.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

(Borrowing Sharon and Lynn's soapbox)
Certainly, the world needs love, but what is needed as badly are good judgement and reliable interpersonal boundaries. Peers meeting on the mat and falling in love is one thing. A person in a position of authority has the responsibility of maintaining clarity in a professional relationship. As I noted in a previous post on this subject, these types of liaisons can make it difficult to know who is profitting from "training." This is why doctors, psychologists and other professionals are prohibited by their ethical codes from engaging in dual relationships. The importance of sensei-student relationship deserves no less serious consideration.
(getting off soapbox, too, whew!)

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I have seen the bad side of this issue. it should be an unspoken rule that dating a student is bad Karma if not just bad ediquett. Not that i can tell senior instructors how to behave, i just know the disappointment that a student will have when this occurs. while it was not in an Aikido school this occured it still has a very silent effect on the student body and Honor of the school.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I didn't vote, because saying 'yes' sounded like saying instructors can't date anyone else. Anyways, in my university's karate club, our sensei was married to one of the students (note- this means karate student, not university student.). She was undoubtedly the top student in the dojo (she was a replacement in the olympics, apparantly, so I don't think it was favortism).


I suppose it could work. Or it could blow up. Just like anything else. My sensei and his wife were excellent teachers who both made up for gaps that the other had.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

To the Other Daniel,
Aikido is a cult of personality. Students come to train not because they know who the instructor trained with, under or over. They come because initially they like the school and the first impression of the Teacher on the mat. They stay because they like the other students and the teacher on the mat. By the time most students, both men and women, have had a chance to make an informed opinion of the people and school they train in they have bonded and few leave for a better school. So in that regard a teacher is truly in a position, if not of power, at least authority. It should not be abused by dating students. Having said that, and my apologies to Lynn, mia culpa, mia culpa. But now I'm old so I can say that others shouldn't.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

I think the issue here is of instructors abusing their position or making a habit of this kind of thing. I was told by my sensei that martial energy and sexual energy are very different and the latter has no part in martial arts training. This was a real issue for his teacher as well. However, my opinion is that if feelings are becoming serious, i.e. both people really like each other, they should go for it. You might only get one chance at happiness. :)

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

There cannot be a set answer.
I have seen some Senseis abuse their position and others who have not.
Personally I once dated one of my students (the only one I hasten to add) for a long period. I also since then introduced my girlfriend (now my wife) to Aikido.
I always ensured that neither of them received special treatment and also insisted that other instructors graded them making it clear that the descisions were entirely theirs.
That said the situation is fraught with difficulty.
I would make one thing clear I have nothing but contempt for teachers who date their students for the sake of it.

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

There are some great marriages that began on the mat...but, while I've not done any research, I would risk that there have been more problems. A teacher has a responsibility to his or her students and has their trust. If he or she feels an irresistable attraction, maybe one of them should change dojos. My first dojo blew up over this type of behavior. If you lead, you bear responsibility.

B

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

John, in a similar sense, do you encourage or discourage couples from training together? I've noticed over my 35 odd years on the mat that this rarely works in the long term. Any comments?

Re: Poll: Should an aikido instructor date a student of theirs?
 

Daniel,
I have found that couples almost without exception do not train well together, particularly those married or in long term relationships.
Come to think of it I cannot recall any that do.
So yes I do try to discourage it although this is not often necssary.