Enlightenment and Self-Actualization
Enlightenment and Self-Actualization... What is the relation between these concepts? What are the differences, similarities between these. Would a person require one to attain the other? I understand enlightenment to be related to eastern philosophy, whereas, self-actualization is the highest level of Human development as explained in the work of psychologist A. Maslow (see Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs). According to Maslow, in order to attain self-actualization, one must have already fulfilled certain other needs in one's life, eg,: basic survival needs, security/safety needs, social acceptance, and self esteem. It would appear that there are no such 'requirements' for enlightenment... or are there?
Thanks, Steve |
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IMHO, "self"-actualization is as you said a heirachy of "self" needs. Enlightenment is a letting go of "self".
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Amen, Lynn.
If self-esteem is part of self-actualization (just going by post), I want no part of it. Sounds too new age to me. Although I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as some in this, I've never heard self-esteem mentioned in Tai Chi or my readings on Taoism ... which I believe have a relation to "Enlightenment". |
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As far as the requirements being a hierchy, I'm hesitant to agree with that. IIRC, modern psychology doesn't completely accept Maslow's Hierarchy any more, but I could be wrong (I'm not a psychologist). From what I've read from aikido, I suspect the form would be much more of a spiral; a relatively short list of elements which aikido grinds down, refines, and purifies as a form of shugyo. And then it just starts over again, and what you thought you had 'fixed' is shown to still be greatly flawed. Lord knows thats how aikido is. I remember two years ago I thought I had good balance. Now I know better. And I'm sure that several years after I think I've corrected how I use my balance, I realize I actually haven't, and find new things to work on. "Mastering" aikido technique & enlightnment are processes, not states. |
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Steve |
Re: Enlightenment and Self-Actualization
Lynn,
Do you think you must ascend through Maslov Hierarchy (self actualization) in order to achieve enlightment. It got me to thinking. Can one be born enlightened, or can one become enlightened without actively seeking it or realizing it? Thanks! |
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If you accept Bodhisattva, then you could be enlightened in a former life and choose to come back to help, therefore, I guess you would be born enlightened. If "you" become enlightened and "you"know about it and "you" realize it, then there is a "you" and "you" probably aren't enlightened. The paradox is "you" must seek it, but it will never come until "you" stop seeking. Does this help muddy your waters any? |
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Not knowing much about Maslow, when you're a kid, aren't you at the top of the needs pyramid? I am the mother of a soon-to-be 4-year old who does not seem to be afraid; obviously, her basic needs are attended to without knowing things could be any different; she is loved, again without knowing things could be any different. So, born on top, descending with knowledge and experience - and then working your way back up? Again and again? Or is there a "shortcut"?
The realization of one's enlightenment - is that an oxymoron? If you think "Hey, I was just enlightened!", were you really? ETA: I see Lynn just answered that one. |
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O Sensei has been quoted as saying that "Aikido was an easy way of getting enlightened." Of course, you have to practice...
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thanks Lynn. I wanted to see if I am thinking along the same lines...I am. I will have to ponder the Boddhisattva issue some more. I always thought of it as being re-born with a greater access, or greater potential, but that you pretty much started out at the same place again. I should be studying my Dharma more than hanging out here...but oh well...there is always the next life :)
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I don't worry about gaining enlightenment or self-actualization, I am just trying to be a better human being. When I've enjoyed the journey and knew it was the right thing to do for mutual benefit and a higher good, it always seems to work out. |
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you can get enlightened by tossing a yoyo too, mumbo jumbo
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Saints and bodhisattvas just forget themselves all the time, that's all. Cordially Erick Mead |
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What does IMHO mean???
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but usually when you say it, what you really mean is In my NOT so Humble opinion...it is just a polite way of softing your opinion? :)
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I like to use IMNSHO, if that's really what I mean. :)
kvaak Pauliina |
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I'm curious to know what level Maslow's hierarchy of need you are after fullfilling by wanting the answer to the questions you pose ;) When I first learnt about Maslow's model. I thought about the Indian Sadhu's(sp?) holy men who give up 'everything' in their quest for enlightenment. Their actions just don't fit into Maslow's model, do they? Are they questions that can only be answered by self actualized or enlightened beings? I can't claim to be either, so am unable to offer to much more than un actualized un enlightened opinon or IMNSHUAUEO for the abbreviationists amongst you. We all have daily opportunities to bring 'light' into the world, it's up to each one of us to try not to miss too many of those opportunities. regards, Mark |
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HERETICS!!! Don't just stand there! Fetch oil for the wood ... :hypno: Fanatically yours, Erick Mead |
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Here Erick Reasons Every Thing Is Common Sense HERETICS? ;)
bring more oil and more wood :D R M |
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Personally, I am not actively seeking enlightenment, although I would like to experience that. I have had some very enlightening moments, once camping in the mountains, and once in a dream. I try to become a better person outwardly toward others, and inwardly within myself...to try to be empty and lose my 'ego', if you will. For me, these attempts at self improvement are geared toward becoming self-actualized, which, I do actively seek. Now, I see what you're saying about people that give up everything, (deprivation?) to become enlightened. However, I think the way each individual develops is different. So for me, I'm thinking that I need to work to become self-actualized, and set the stage for enlightenment to simply happen. So, I'm thinking that for my own development, enlightenment might be an additional layer on top of the pyramid of Maslow's Hierarchy. I think if you asked me the same question next week, or next year, I might have a different answer. ;) To address your other question about whether these are questions that can only be answered by self actualized or enlightened beings; I'd say we all have our own perspectives and they are valuable regardless of where we are in our own personal development. Thanks, Steve |
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Aikido is one path, and one that for me is as all encomassing as any others that I see out there. From a global point of view, the more people that we can help out of the 'survival' level towards the levels that allow thinking beyond immediate needs, the better ( bomb them with food and clean water?? ) it will be for all of us. My last question was a little 'tongue in cheek'. These questions can only be answered by ourselves for ourselves, although there are many out there willing to sell you the answer if only you follow them..... :crazy: It seems to me that the jouney of self improvement for want of a better term is a life long one but one worth the effort. from one flawed human to another, regards Mark |
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people think that 'enlightenment' is some extraordinary thing. When someone (your mom, your dad) close to you dies. There is a sort of enlightenment about death. It can't be practiced; it is lived.
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http://philosophy.eserver.org/kant/w...ightenment.txt
IMMANUEL KANT An Answer to the Question: "What is Enlightenment?" Konigsberg in Prussia, 30th September, 1784. Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to use one's own understanding without the guidance of another. This immaturity is self-incurred if its cause is not lack of understanding, but lack of resolution and courage to use it without the guidance of another. The motto of enlightenment is therefore: Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/...nment/id/74536 A metaphor appearing in the sutras is that of a glass of water containing sediments. As long as the glass is undisturbed, the sediments remain at the bottom and the water is clear. However, as soon as the glass is shaken, the water becomes turbid. Likewise, when a practitioner experiences a Great Awakening (awakens to the Way), his afflictions (greed, anger and delusion) are temporarily suppressed but not yet eliminated. To achieve Supreme Enlightenment (i.e., to be rid of all afflictions, to discard all sediments) is the ultimate goal. Only then can he completely trust his mind and actions. Before then, he should adhere to the precepts, keep a close watch on his mind and thoughts, like a cat stalking a mouse, ready to pounce on evil thoughts as soon as they arise. To do otherwise is to court certain failure, as stories upon stories of errant monks, roshis and gurus demonstrate. |
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