Brawling with a friend
 

Hello everyone,

what I am probably about to type is not new to many veterans out there, but hopefully will clear up some issues for beginners like me.

in the 10 months i've been training, there has been one resounding positive effect: confidence. i am simply more confident in myself.

so my best friend and I got together this weekend. mind you, i've known this guy forever, the last thing he does is insult me, or want to hurt me, but we always have "friendly" fights.

this time, we decided to turn it up a notch. i figured we could, because we trust each other, the same way an uke trusts his tori.

we cleared the living room and began to "fight." now here is what i learned about Aikido, and hopefully i will get some advice from the older students:

1) I attacked first. Basically, as soon as I did that, I lost the fight. Aikido really is a non-violent martial art. even though i knew some beginner techniques, i could not employ them, because i didn't allow my friend to attack me. therefore, i had no 'ki' to work with.

2) You have to move fast in Aikido for it to be effective. if it's not instinctual, it will not work. he *did* grab my wrists a few times, and as soon as i "connected" with him, he simply let go, and the "ki" was lost.

3) In spite of all this, i still had a chance to take him down. i had him set up for a perfect sankyo, and couldn't do it correctly.

summary: sometimes people think Aikido doesn't work. in this case, it didn't at all. but it wasn't O' Sensei's fault.

if i waited for my friend to attack first, I might've had a chance. i always acted too hastily and tried to take him down. this goes against everything Aikido teaches you.

second, if you don't practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, you will never employ the technique correctly. they require a swift, instinctual motion, with no delay or hesitation. hesitate for a second, and you have lost the technique. if you rest on your laurels, you don't stand a chance.

looking back on what i just typed, this sounds like a lot of common sense. however, i've seen a lot of "Aikido doesn't work" threads recently, and I have to agree: if you let your oppenents play their game, it will not work at all.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

There are so many ways to respond to what you have said, that I wouldn't even know where to start, so I won't, except to say that 10 months into your training is the wrong time to make such a broad indictment. In Aikido, 10 months is less than one second.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Clark conveyed my sentiments well enough. In a few more years of training, you will understand that uke doesn't have to attack first for the conflict to end in victory.

An old joke is, match two aikidoka up and they will stand there forever with no resolution because while one is waiting for the other to attack and vise versa, there is no attacking going on and thus it turns out to be a starring contest! LOL!

This is not the case. Yes, aikido prefers to be nonviolent and harmonize the attacker's energy but thats not to say that you cannot attack first!

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

sorry my friends, did not mean to generalize this art. like both of you pointed out, I wholeheartedly agree that I have barely begun.

I just thought I would shed a pure beginner's point of view. i'm guessing that most of these "aikido does not work" threads are started by beginners like me, who are still trying to figure it out.

this is what i was trying to get at. glad it is not the case, and i'm looking forward to the days when i find out for myself.

take it easy on me,

Luc

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

[quote=
1) I attacked first. Basically, as soon as I did that, I lost the fight. Aikido really is a non-violent martial art. even though i knew some beginner techniques, i could not employ them, because i didn't allow my friend to attack me. therefore, i had no 'ki' to work with.

2) You have to move fast in Aikido for it to be effective. if it's not instinctual, it will not work. he *did* grab my wrists a few times, and as soon as i "connected" with him, he simply let go, and the "ki" was lost.

3) In spite of all this, i still had a chance to take him down. i had him set up for a perfect sankyo, and couldn't do it correctly.

summary: sometimes people think Aikido doesn't work. in this case, it didn't at all. but it wasn't O' Sensei's fault.

if i waited for my friend to attack first, I might've had a chance. i always acted too hastily and tried to take him down. this goes against everything Aikido teaches you.

second, if you don't practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, you will never employ the technique correctly. they require a swift, instinctual motion, with no delay or hesitation. hesitate for a second, and you have lost the technique. if you rest on your laurels, you don't stand a chance.

looking back on what i just typed, this sounds like a lot of common sense. however, i've seen a lot of "Aikido doesn't work" threads recently, and I have to agree: if you let your oppenents play their game, it will not work at all.[/QUOTE]

As soon as you attacked him you showed him your intentions and gave up your balance. If you tried to use muscular strength in your attack you were not relaxed and this would hinder your movements.

There is much more that you did and did not do that you will see as you continue practicing.

It is never O'Sensei's fault that your Aikido did not work and yes practice, practice, practice, practice, all the answers are on the mat.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Confidence is great, but as you found out, confidence only means one will be more comfortable entering into some related situation.
I especially agree with the part about it having to be instinctual. Thinking only seems to distract my ability to respond/act.
It wasn't exactly Aikido, though, was it? If techniques didn't work, you weren't blending with his movements and getting "inside" of his movements. Ideally, you should never have to struggle: find your partner's intention and move with it.
HOWEVER remember there's a good reason most Aikidoka don't favor competing with people...particualry if the people are still very new: it's easy to get fixated on searching for, and then finding, that opening while you're tangled up with your partner; this can easily lead to dislocated bones or torn ligaments, if you're not sensitive enough to release the pressure you're generating, safely...and a spiral fracture sucks big-time! In addition to this, some techniques, if you pull them off, require uke to know how to move so they don't get hurt...if uke tenses up at the wrong time, it's easy to tear a muscle, or worse.
Kiotsukete while you gambatte! :uch:
Take care,
Matt

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I remember reading something about some wrestlers coming to visit (hombu?) and OSensei allowing some kind of challenge "match." Earlier the wrestlers had visited the Kodokan where they were told to never attack an Aikidoka first, so there was a bunch of circling around before Tohei-sensei finally engaged the wrestler and imobilized him. As I recall, OSensei, got mad that Tohei-sensei had attacked first. I think I read it here on Aikiweb, but I can't recall for sure...might have been Aikido Journal. I don't think it was Tohei relating the story...maybe Chiba-sensei? Anyway...it just reminded me of that story.
Take care,
Matthew

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

wow, thank you all for your input. looks like I have a long way to go (obviously), but I'm prepared for the long journey.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

This Thursday I will have been in Aikido for a month now. (but really not at all because we only meet once a week :( ) Anyways Luc, dont worry, you are not alone in being a noob.

My best friend and I were just messing around yesterday acting like we were fighting. He said we should try a practice where two people stand side to side, foot to foot, and from there try to get the other person to move the outside foot. Anyways, I instictivly let him push into me, and just make subtle movements with my center to bring him off balance. I believe that Ive learned alot (IN MY EYES) for only going to 3 once a week courses, and reading into some books.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Luc, you can't build a solid brigde without solid foundations. Right now you are at the stage of surveying the ground. I have been training for 3 years now and feel like im at the stage of boring that first hole into the ground to lay my first support strut.

When you were playing with your friend, you were probably (i would assume) going for a certain technique(s) to the detriment of others, this is something that EVERYONE does to begin with (usually its their favourite technique they go for first) relax and look for his balance first, then something will come to you (hand/head/arm/leg etc).

As for attacking first, when we are told not to attack first it think this means attacks which compromise our balance e.g. huge punches where we have to clear a lot of space to make them connetc. Alos, it comes from an idea of 'if we dont attack first, and the other side doesn't attack then there is no physical conflict, and that's the best way of all to avoid injury to both parties. A nice idea, but not always practical, so next time you and your mate have a bit of a play, aim a few quick punches up and down his body while you move into him to take his balance. balance is the Ki (crap pun i know, im very very sorry :crazy: :drool: :yuck: )

Just have fun training, pretty soon you will notice the changes and the sublties of your technique.

Steve

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that on the one had Aikido is touted as the pacifists martial art - subdue your opponenet without hamring them etc etc, and on the other we get these too dangerous to spar type arguments?

Personally I still maintain that it's not an issue of being too dangerous so much as Aikido works best against a particular type of unfettered agression which you don't see alot in sparring and certainly not in two mates facing off in the living room.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Luc,
Clark's response, should cover most of what you need right now.
If you continue to train for 10 years and your friend does not, then the 'friendly fights' will either become one sided or evaporate completely as you lose interest in the win/lose paradigm of fighting.
Over time in aikido you may realise that the only opponent worth grappling with is oneself. You will provide yourself with many opportunities and almost limitless material to work with. ;)
Friends are for having a good time with, what happens when you do get to the point when you can 'beat' him, will it change the nature of the relationship? will you feel superior to him? will he be pleased for you?
Fighting is such a 'gross' level of human interaction, there are better ways to go about things. Aikido practiced long enough provides the skills to deal with combat effectively. The more you practice the less you want to engage in combat to test your skills. Practice the art for it's own sake, the rewards come slowly, and are dependant on your own integration of the aikido principles into your own life.

Take you mate down the pub, buy him a drink, and have a laugh together, harmony in action ;)

regards,

Mark

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Luc,

You attacked him wrong :)

No, seriously, i'm a bit tired of people confusing aikido as a defensive art with aikido as reactive art. You should take the initiative before it's too late and things are out of control, better for you and for uke. If you have to make the first move, do it. (of course imho).

Take some time and read this article.

Aristeia,

Interesting, isn't it?

It's one of these aikido contradictions which probably will remain unsolved until the end of time (or when shodothugs rule the earth)
:)

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

How true, how true...

let me see, by August of this year, I will have been practicing for 5 years alreaady... Luc, I know what you've been through... IMHO I think you're still at the stage where in your taking it all in. Starting to understand how the flow of ki works.. During my first few months, We train from 8 AM to 12 noon every weekend morning. I'd do everything I can to extend my time and even after the session I'd look friends to "play" with... Now that I think about it, I felt like a very happy kid who recieved his first bike... not wanting to stop. :)

It's all good fun (and even addictive at times) but like Mark posted, The more you practice the less you want to engage in combat to test your skills...

in my experince, I've come to realize that practicing has its place, and so will using it once the need arises. I honestly don't ever want to use Aikido on anyone, Im currently at the stage of continuing to study for the sake of sharpening my skills.... and the art has worked wonders for me in many ways (including career, lovelife etc. etc.)

Good luck on your journey! :p

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

(including career, lovelife etc. etc.)


all that moving from the hips does wonders........so i have been told.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Nope.
The roots of Aikido are in the arts that Samurai used when fighting an opponent and would need to momentarily subdue or disable the opponent before killing him. If the opponents wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc. were injured it did not matter, he was going to die anyway.
We practice Aikido now for different reasons and the techniques have been changed but severe injury can still be done if you are not careful.
Everybody, especially beginners, should never use Aikido techniques when playing around with friends.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Even if i agree with you in the "Martial Arts are not for playing around with friends" sense, i'm still dubuious about Aikido being more dangerous than other unarmed arts or sports like Judo, Boxing, Karate, Olympic Wrestling ... where the practitioners engage in full force-contact resistive sparring-randori-shiai-you name it without causing the high amount of fatalities Aikido is said to cause when applied "for real".

What have i missed?

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Being at the receiving end of a few shihonage over the top with koshy nague thrown in, just to make ukemi as difficult as possible, all that when you are not expecting it?

More seriously
I practice horse riding (jousting, jumping and dressage), German medieval fencing with and without Armour on foot and on horse as well as aikido

I have taken my share of over the top by horse; we spare with shinai and crossguard, and fencing/kendo helmet and kote to simulate un-armoured longsword. (I have played rugby and American football).

All of the above is fine, you have the protections and what can go wrong is seriously limited.
And that is simply not the case in aikido, like fencing with live blade; you just not have that level of security if something goes wrong.
Basically akido uses leverage on weak joints at high velocity and focus the strain on those joint. You just do not find that on competitive sport you mention.
We keep it safe because we keep it under control.
For exemple the 3rd bone breaker at the arm, is word for word shiho-nage irimi-omote. And it is to be used as the name aptly says, to break the arm of your opponent.

It will just take your partner, to slip to tense up or to try to get away the wrong way and you will have the pleasure of cutting his meat at every meal for 3 month.

Philippe

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I'm surprised no one focused on this yet. No martial art anywhere will work if you let your opponent play their game exactly the way they want to. Period. Aikido cannot passively let the the agressor stay the agressor, let the initiator keep the initiative

So how does aikido 'mess' with people's game? Lots of ways I barely understand, to be honest. Enter when they expect you to run or resist, and draw out their attack so they become over-extended are two of the easier to list. The only way to figure this out, through, is during practice.

One thing I will say is that almost every aikido technique I've ever heard of works a hell of a lot better on an uke who already has had their balance broken. ...and once again, sadly, the answer to how one does that cannot be found on this board. (Though I REALLY wish it could ;) )

EDIT: Also, I agree... the way aikido is practiced (at a lot of places, at least, from what I hear), I'm unsure that trying to spar afer 10 months is the best way to go for a lot of reasons, safety being a biggy.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Yes, and it's not funny.

Of course, but you seem to forget a lot of koshi, kokyu, tenchi, irimi.... nage which are not based in ballistically messing with opponent joints and are not much more dangerous than judo throws.

You also seem to forget the authorized (because they are "safe") techniques in shodokan randori. And these are not techniques unknown to a high kyu aikido practitioner regardless of style.

We're not so deadly..., in fact we train to be not very deadly, isn't it?

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Well, the waza may indeed be designed to break someone's arm at some level, but let's look at this a bit. Do you know anyone who has broken someone's arm with that technique? Have you yourself ever done it? Have you ever applied sucsessfully to a fully resistant, in shape, trained opponant even a "safe" version of the technique?

Not to be a spoil sport...but it can be really hard to take a strong, fit, aggressive person and put their hand behind their shoulder.

Best,
Ron (and no, I'm not saying that aikido doesn't work)

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Gee Ron, could you rephrase this? Too many negatives for my old addled brain to figure out. :p

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Well I haven't seen anyone get their arm broken myself but apparently my sensei had his wrist broken by a showoff nage doing kotegeashi in his days of training long time ago.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Oh you definitely don't have to attack first. My sensei loves to attack as uke, and then totally reverse the technique on myself as nage.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

i've received a lot of comments about two main areas:

1) the more i train, the less i will feel a need to use my skills in a playful manner.

why is this so? like someone mentioned earlier, i'm still in the "discovery" stages, where everything is new and exciting to me. after class, when i go home, i still want to do Aikido. does this feeling go away?

2) am i really capable of hurting someone at this stage? i've heard a lot of this as well, but i'm training for my 5th kyu test, and am still working on using my center.

how did you know i was a bridge engineer? :cool:

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

As to 1), not necessarily. But at some point your loved ones will wise up and refuse to play practice dummy anymore...BTDT :D:D

2) I think this would depend a bit on who you practice with and how you practice. If you're resonably big and strong and you try to force a technique on someone smaller and weaker than you, yes you could hurt someone. Quite possibly without noticing it, if you haven't developed a lot of sensitiveness yet.

The other scenario is where suddenly something accidentally works, not because you know how to do it but because you just happen to hit the right movement, and you and your training partner are both taken by surprise. That can result in injury, too.

BTW, about attacking - you can "attack" with an aikido technique, but only if you observe all the requirements that make an aikido technique succesful in the first place. Just deciding "I'm going to ikkyo this guy" is going to fail, if your relative positions and energy and timing and whatnot are not appropriate for ikkyo. I think what easily happens in this kind of situation is that when you want to go for an aikido-technique-as-an-attack, you stop taking in everything about the other person, and attack in the wrong way, at the wrong moment, getting sort of blinded by the idea of attacking.

kvaak
Pauliina

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Luc,
What does your sensei say about this?

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I am restraining myself from being totally honest in my opinion...but, If you do not train for life , you lead a false life...so, when you practice with whomever it is, remember that if they allow you to do whatever you want/attempt...you are not doing Aikido, you are performing as if in a play...or forbid, PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING....now, this will evoke some responses, but, if you do not have 10 years of diligent practice under your belt, please do not embarrass yourself with a "MY SENSEI SAID" reply...if you do not put your skills to the test...sign up for "DOJO BALLERINA 101" ...
does anyone else get tired of hearing " AIKIDO IS NON-CONFRONTATIONAL" or " AIKIDO IS NOT COMPETITIVE "....it is a diluted form of combat...a contemporary form of budo...please, train as if it would be the final time before you face an unknown opponent...trust your partners not to rob you of the ability to defend yourself if needed....yet, compassionate enough to realize when you have to no longer defend yourself and have not become the aggressor....

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I hope you realize I didn't say it's too dangerous to spar. I think it's perfectly fine to train off the mat. I was just speaking from the top of my head and after trying to think about how one might train, I felt the need to include a caveat. People get hurt ON the mat, when they've been training for a few years. I've come somewhat close to dislocating a person's shoulder without a whole lot more effort than it takes to raise and lower my hand. I think it's smart to be careful. Aikido teaches a pacifist's intention, but the techniques can tear a joint apart pretty easily if one isn't careful. Nikkyo, for example, has claimed one training partner (I didn't do it! I swear!).
"Stuff happens" and it's wise to be careful, that's all.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I think you are very perceptive Luc. Aikido in its purest form is a non-violent path. As you said, it was not O-Sensei's fault. The inability to apply a technique falls on the shoulders of the Aikidoka. It is not a reflection on Osensei's teachings, rather just your inexperience in the art. Having said that, I believe that your thinking and analysis on Aikido is very admirable. Your Idea's may change as you become proficient, but for someone to be in deep thought of Aikido at your level, makes you to be a very promising Aikidoka. I wish we had more students like you at my dojo. Thanks for the interesting read.

Dominic.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I would like you to provide the proof where O"Sensei said this.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

In a brawl i.e, a friendly sparring match where each party is trying not to hurt the other party, wrestling is a good delivery system. Sportified version of judo is a good avenue to engage in such friendlies. Alternative would be wrestling. Boxing or pugilistic approach is possible with protective gear and strict rules. Such friendlies is a good avenue to practice sportmanship and atheletism. In my mind, to play this type of game, aikido purist will fare rather poorly.

Some say in aikido there is no offence, some say there is. And yet, yokomenuchi, shomenuchi, or mune tsuki are the typical offence you see in a aikido dojo. So technically those are your offensive version of so called aikido technique.

But then, people argue, those attack are unrealistic... nobody in real world would throw a punch like that? These people argue, in REAL WORLD (TM) street hudlum will tuck their chin in, hands will assume boxing position, assume a boxing stance and go mano on mano with you.

I am a real person, I live in a real world, and yet when I think of it, I am not going to tuck my chin in, and assume a boxing stance. I will instead, should the need arise, execute the typical yokomen uchi, shomen uchi type of attack so bemoan of the typical fighter. But bear in mind instead of barehand, you bet I will be holding something hard and not easily breakable (stones, helmet or glass bottle).

So, people, does your aikido have offence. Mine does, and it you want REAL OFFENSE (TM), it will be with a weapon. Deal with it.

So if people ask you, how does aikido deal with a boxer? Get a jo and show them. How does aikido deal with newaza? Get a jo and show them. How does aikido deal with a crazed mad man lunging at you with a knife ala mune tuski fashion.... SHOMEN-ATE (TM)!!!

Boon.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I too have only begun my training (almost a year now!) but I agree with much of what has been said.

At my level of experience, if a technique is going to work, it is because it is completely instinctual -- a person went to hit me and tsuki kotegaeshi just happened. The one or two times I've had the "friendly" fights you talk about, I'm careful to make sure I don't try for any techniques for fear of hurting someone; instead, I think about my ma'ai and how I'm moving. Knowing my friends, I'm careful about which of them hear I've started practicing aikido -- I don't want to deal with "Oh yeah? Prove it works..."

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

It might not be my place to say so (I've only been doing aikido for 2 years, which is like 2 seconds to some people :p ) but these seem to be fairly astute observations. Especially the one about not playing the opponents game. Good job, and for all who don't know, brawling with friends is fun! :D

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

In my case, the feeling never goes away... simply can't get enough of it.... :) BUT...

how true how true.... :cool:

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Hello ron
May be I was not clear in what I was trying to get across. Regardless of the pertinence of free sparing in aikido, It is not a matter of how hard it is to break someone arm or the deadliness of the art itself, It is a mater of how easy it is to protect the participant of thing outside their control.
I am not really an expert but cutting with the hand behind the shoulder with shiho-nague is what makes it safe, If you cut more away from his body it will become much more iffy.
Safety in fee sparing does not only involve the skill of each participant that is why I used the shiho-nague over the top. If each participant know what they are doing we can make it relatively safe if not especially pleasant. However it has a fair potential to go horribly wrong and we do not have any means of protecting ourselves other than not letting it go horribly wrong.

I am not saying that we should not do randori or kokuy because they are safe and controlled environment but this is world apart from free-sparing.
.

Denmetrio, I can disagree with what you say
But if you take away techniques, it is a bit like fencing with a long sword and say that you are not cutting because it is too dangerous, in that case you are really doing mid period rapier or small sword but not really longsword anymore.

phil

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

So when your on the street and a guy attempts to tackle you to the ground so he can pound your head in, are you going to ask him to wait right there while you get a jo? Wouldn't it be better to just train against guys with actually ground skills to learn what to expect from a person with those skills and learn how to defend against them with your skills. Its a lot like saying "My aikido will defend me from boxers. How do I know? Well because O'Sensei was unbeaten." or saying "How do you defend against grapplers? Well dont go to the ground". These kind of statements dont actually mean anything. They dont solve an issue, they skirt around it. If you want to learn how to use aikido against a strong skilled sriker, which of these training methods are going to build skill fastest (this is assuming you are at least shodan rank)

Method 1) I train at my dojo with other aikido people who throw yokomen, shomen, and meski strikes at me. Possibly these people have no striking training outside of aikido. Or at best stand in a boxers stance and throw jabs leaving the arm out at the end of the jab.

Method 2) I train with a boxer or karate guy who moves around and throws strikes at about 25-50% power at me while I attempt to leverage my aikido. Then as I get better he steps up his attacks until I can deal with his footwork and strikes at any level. When run this drill until he forces retreat, tap, or verbal tap with strikes, or I submit him with a pin or lock. Then I find other strikers and do the same thing (because everyone is different and more training partners means more variety).

Again, lets say i'm worried about takedowns. Which method is best for me.

Method 1) I train at my dojo again. This time I have students do the 'football ducking single leg'. This is what you get when you tell someone untrained in grappling to do a single leg. They start about 2 feet back, bend over looking at your leg then run into you and attempt to push you over with their shoulder while holding onto your leg.

Method 2) I find a grappler, lets say a judo guy. I have him engage in randori with me using his judo. I have him go about 30% and then scale it up as I get better. We go until either I get thrown, or I throw or standing lock him. We continue to increase the skill level until we are in full randori.

This does not mean that method 2 has to be someone outside of your aikido dojo. Maybe you have a strong judoka in your dojo who can give you an accurate version of a takedown. Or maybe you have a karate guy in your dojo who can throw good strikes. But principles are not as easy to apply as actually experiance.

One last example. You have a programming job you need done. You have two choices to pick from

1) This programmer is fresh out of college with a BS in CS. He has never worked in the field but has trained daily for 4 years. He knows all the latest theory and design principles as well as all the langauges required.
2) This programmer has no college education. He started working in computers at age 17 and worked his way up though a company where he became a programmer. He was the lead developer of several successful projects for this company. Though his work he has learned the skills and languages needed. His previous employers projects have not been as mission critical as the project you have now, but he has actual work experiance in the language and multiple sucesssful projects written in this language.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I don't get this one - the Japanese says nothing at all about "breaking the arm". Misunderstood in translation?

Best,

Chris

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

Sounds like Mixed Martial Arts to me Don! :)

I personally like this approach to training. it isn't for everyone, but if you have a particular risk factor or concern that you feel is important to mitigate....training this way is the only way I know how to do it properly.

IMO, if you train in traditional aikido you will become very good at traditional aikido. If it works in a fight, it works. It may or may not work depending on the day of the week your feeling, mood, awareness, hydration level...or any number of factors.

Also, IMO, if you want to be a better fighter...train as you fight and fight as you train. It is as simple as that! Last I checked you don't "train as you fight" in an aikido dojo for the most part.

Aikido may be a part of your training regime, (for fighting), but it is no where near complete as a methodology.

Re: Brawling with a friend
 

I say this will apply to any type of training. Factors such as health, mood, hydration, awareness and most importantly LUCK....play a huge role and can ultimately determine the result in a fight no matter what martial art or method you're training.