Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
Moriteru Ueshiba is the current Doshu of the Aikikai Hombu in Japan. Christian Tissier is also a member of Aikikai Aikido. However their demonstration of the waza is very different to my mind, as I think this video shows https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTsfG0eNbuE .
To my mind Tissier executes the waza in a more martial fashion, whereas Moriteru Ueshiba's waza is much smoother and "soft". Is this just a case of individual expression of the waza or does Moriteru demonstrate Aikikai Aikido more in line with his grandfather's - O Sensei's - conceptualization of Aikido? I like the fluidity of Moriteru Ueshiba's Aikido, it's very circular and in some respects mesmerizing. But I am inspired more by Tissier's Aikido because I feel it retains the more applicable, martial quality of the art and therefore looks "stronger". Technically who is "better" or "closer" to O'Sensei's vision of Aikido? |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
I think O Sensei's vision in this sense was that Aikido and his message would spread throughout the world. In this case, the fact that two high level people do things different are no better or worse, or closer or further from the vision.
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Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
Yes indeed, I agree with Kevin. Many 'styles' or expressions in Aikido and all usually believe they are the best representation.
My advice would be to forget that question and stick with a better one ie: "which would suit you best?" or "which are you more drawn to?" Peace. G. |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
the only reason I compared them was that they are two high level Aikikai shihan that are affiliated to the same Aikido organisation. It just interested me that they had very different styles. As Doshu do you think Moriteru's gracefulness is something to aspire to? It seems to me that his uke needs to be far more compliant in order for his style to appear to personify the principle of non-resistance; whereas Tissier's looks more dynamic; still fluid but more powerful. I would imagine if uke did not comply with Tissier he would still be able to execute the technique effectively. Or is this just my untrained observations?
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Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
Is the wind more powerful than the sea? Does the house picked up by the tornado have more compliance than the house burnt by the fire?
I think some sprinters look very graceful and some look very dynamic and powerful yet on closer inspection both are very powerful and graceful. Peace.G. |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
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Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
From separate Aikido Journal interviews:
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Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
Thank you for these quotes, they are very insightful and explain a lot about their two individual styles - Moriteru certainly has a very clean technique and you can tell Tissier strives to embody the true essence of Budo through his Aikido.
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Now you compare from more of a technical viewpoint with your added experience I would say each can do what the other is doing. Each 'style' can be as effective as each other. Can being the operative word. So all comes back down to which you personally want to learn and therefor which places emphasize the the specifics you are looking for in their teaching. It may equal in the end that you get peoples views as you are doing and then part two you may have to visit a few different dojo's and teachers before you can fully decide which is for you. Peace.G. |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
Big grin:
I am member of the German Aikido Federation with Endo Seishiro and Christian Tissier as shihan. From members of other lines of aikikai here in Germany I am used to hear that the aikidō of Christian Tissier depends completely on his uke being compliant ... That his aikidō is too soft and too "big" for being martially effective and only works as a way to fondle uke down to the floor. Christian Tissier himself allways emphasizes, that the second dōshu was a most important teacher to him. For preparing my classes aswell as for preparing my nidan examination I used the book "The Aikido Master Course" of Ueshiba Moriteru a lot as technical reference. So there is no real difference of the forms both teach. (Btw. where you looking for technicalc DVDs? I would also recommend the books of the current dōshu.) I think: Both clearly provide a different "image". It looks different: According to their personality, biography, background (in swordwork e.g.). But this is just the personalization of the underlying identical technical theme. So I think: Yes it is just about the observation and the image that arises in the observer. (And not only the untrained.) |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
Just going by these two clips, it looks to me that Tissier makes much more obvious kuzushi, and he tends to use the moment of unbalance to either enter deep and under his uke, or to create big up-and-down wave with his body. The end result is that there is more obvious energy being transferred into uke as he throws.
The Doshu, on the other hand - and this is something I have noticed whenever I watch his demonstrations - keeps a fairly open ma'ai with his uke, and his movements tend to be horizontally circular. Not as much up and down, and not as much obvious energy being transferred into uke during the technique. In my very humble opinion, looking at just these two videos, Ueshiba's technique is a lot more martial than Tissier's; Tissier seems to be the showman here. Imagine if the ukes had hidden knives. Ueshiba is very centered, his uke's are very much extended past their centers; if he were to fail to take his uke's balance perfectly, he would have a bit of room to flow into something else. It looks to me that what Tissier is doing, if he were to screw it up, he would be in a pretty bad position. |
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I understand your point ma'ai is an important martial principle, but how Tissier would react to a knife attack I am sure would be different to the empty handed attack as demonstrated here. Although his techniques appear more "showmanship" they also generate more force, meaning after the technique is executed he has more time to prepare for the next attack, whereas Moriteru's techniques are so flowing that uke is protected more and therefore back on balance much quicker. Maybe I need to understand martial principles better but that is how I see it. |
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That's why I think his is the more martial demonstration. |
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Ueshiba performing tanto dori kote gaeshi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fad-uQ5kIzk Ueshiba performing kote gaeshi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVmOI4AY6d8 From what I can see his distance from uke does not alter greatly between attacks; however fascinatingly he brings uke's hand back further towards uke's body in the tanto version which would force uke to move his head to avoid being cut with his own knife thus taking his posture both through the wrist lock and knife. But does this prove greater martial effectiveness? For one uke telegraphs the attack very obviously and doesn't conceal the weapon so Ueshiba can more easily judge the distance. I couldn't find any videos on youtube of Tissier performing tanto dori so I can't compare his techniques. |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
In my view aikido is a very "broad church" - and I personally like top level practitioners to be different - to give us something different to choose from - and indeed to aspire to. I am personally not so keen on senior students of teachers being carbon copies of their teachers. I want to see them express principles, but according to their own characters, bodies, shapes and sizes.
Have you practiced with both of these teachers? If not, I would suggest you reserve some judgement until you have done so. Investigate - let us know your further conculsions. |
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Assuming they are both equally effective martially then you would be left with a different question. Basically...'Why are they both equally effective martially?' Peace.G. |
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Peace.G. |
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Peace.G. |
Re: Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier
http://youtu.be/5zUut60gfkU
Here's an example of what I mean by looking at something from such a view. What I notice is: 1st, keeping ma-ai. next he is turning tenkan which employs both entering and circle principles, finally and amazingly he is allowing his body to break ie:not keep ma-ai whilst at the same time his head is basically doing a number of irimi's (entering off line behind the punch) all whilst the feet are going backwards to readjust balance. Extraordinary in my opinion. Peace.G. |
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This is a short video entitled fujita sensei aihanmi 1. Once again I would say they probably both apply the principle so it's not a matter of differently it' a matter of seeing when they are. In the video above Fujita starts by showing the ways he doesn't do it and then to how he does or maybe in his opinion how it should be. To the untrained eye it may seem like his technique or rather the hand part of his technique is in, up and down. The whole motion looks like taking up and taking down. Now, when I say principle of the circle this includes all parts of a circle in action and thus curves and arcs. At the top of his up is an arc. Thus using the principle of the circle. You can demonstrate this for yourself if you get someone pushing their hand agaist your hand for example. Two forces pushing against each other. You create a small arc and both your energy and theirs will follow it thus you can return the force to them. Just one example of one use of the circle. Some may do the same exercise as fujita in that demo but emphasize or put more emphasis on a different principle and so it would look the same yet different or similar but not the same. Peace.G. |
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