Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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I've never been bothered hugely one way or another as to the precise nature of Ueshiba's internal abilities and am quite willing to accept that their one and only source was Takeda. I do still think that later methods he used for these things are of importance and worthy of study. My question would be. Did Ueshiba pass this stuff on? Part of my point of view was that he did. Tohei got it, so why does everyone keep saying it was lost and needs reintroduction. You say that Tohei left Dan but he didn't leave the old man did he? He left his son and the aikikai so that he could teach this stuff that nobody thought was needed in the aikikai. Anyway, that's all I really wanted to say on the subject in the first place. Probably hasn't been a great thing that I happened to be crunching numbers for the last few weeks and waiting for the PC to finish stuff so that I can come and argue with you here.... maybe see you in a few weeks. Mike |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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I've also heard it suggested that the split had much more to do with familial difficutlies arising from personal conduct than theory and practice of aikido. And that version is so widely sidestepped in favor of overblown theories of high principles and theories of one kind or another by all factions that I think it likely to be closest to embarrassing and all-too-human truths that even the usual antagonists will unite to sweep them under the carpet. Best, FL |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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You misunderstand about Tohei leaving to get it. That isn't in regards to the Tohei-Kisshomaru split, it's actually about his learning from Nakamura sensei after the war. Nakamura opened Tohei's eyes to what Ueshiba was doing. So, yeah, Tohei got it from outside rather than from Ueshiba. (Course, there's Tomiki. Where did he get it from? But that's another thread) Try reading this: http://www.b-smart.net/archive/tohei_intvw.html Got a lot of good stuff in there. Things like, Tohei had no idea what Ueshiba was doing, so he just copied the movements. Another interesting part is the translation of "non-resistance". Here, the translater translates it as "non-dissension". Hmm ... throws a wrench into Erick's posts over in baseline skills. Or this part, "Most people assume that if someone pushes on your body, you have no choice but to move or receive it. In fact, if you are relaxed and unified it is relatively easy to redirect the incoming force into your One Point and be stable as a rock, even with several strong men trying to push you over." Fun stuff. Mark |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
I don't misunderstand and am more than familiar with what Tohei learnt and where he learnt it. Tohei got much of what he learnt from outside of aikido, but he got his aikido from the Founder and the founder recognised this. He recognised that Tohei had 'it' too. Even if he didn't expressly teach 'it' to him himself. The difference is semantics really, Tohei passed 'it' on within aikido.
Anyway I'm retired from this thread :) I'm off to the dojo to try the unbendable arm and the immovable one for you Mark. I'll pick the biggest guy there too, and tell you about it in the other thread when I get home. Like I said a few days ago, don't expect me around here much in the near future, too much work to do. Mike |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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More to the point, read a little further : Quote:
You all still don't seem to get what I am about doing, for reasons I think that Tohei also touches on in this interview . Quote:
Anything works with a modicum of training and a fundamental trust that it can be done. The mind finds the path regardless of the odd imagery it may use ot get there. It is easy, therefore when presented with the "This works -- that doesn't" in person to 1) see that it works 2) therefore trust that it works; and 3) therefore be able to find the flow that makes it work. Now find a way to commmunicate and to define objective criteria of some realistic dimensions of 1-3 conceptually without "hands on." There's the hard part. It is necessary for students to be able to do proper correctives on their own, which even Tohei recognized, albeit with a different attempt at solution. Quote:
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As for me, and my interpretation of One Point, try "radius of turn reduced to zero, energy = ???" Do the math. Quote:
Tohei's 4 principles do that, but they are not (nor do they attempt to be) a physical interpretaiton of what happens that can be used as an generally applied concept in the Western sense. They are a widely approved impression of feel for correct action -- they are not a rubric for detailed description of correct action. There are tools for doing this in physical terms, they just need to be applied correctly and consistently. |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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to quote Tohei from his sayings that have been around for decades, one has been titled "The Principle of Non-Dissension" ... Quote:
This to me is not just attempting to interpret words in an interview but from training and having experienced it. Having been trained by some including Will Reed Sensei. best. |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
Very nice post Craig, Thanks!
Best, Ron |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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Aiki is NOT manifested in the joining it has to be manifested in you. In yo or yin yang in you. Then when-they- contact you by their intent or you moving-things get interesting. All of these "colorful" descriptions and "out there" notions of world peace are fine for some folks. But they get the average practioner as far as reading the words and meditating on the cosmic design. Its all just colorful bullshit that teachers use and ner do wells keep sucking up and adding to their great eastern mystism model. While the knowledge truly is profound- do we really need to be talked to like children? Some of these teachers really need to get a grip. I at least can handle someone holding back and while smiling knowing they ain't EVER gonna let go of the real stuff. But being led along some quasy new world religion while being spoon fed is a bit over the top. You can teach it and have folks doing it in short order if they'll work hard. Cheers Dan |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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So I agree with you. It's what I am doing, the non-dissension that I manifest, that creates the effect. I would add to "if they'll work hard" and that if they will be really honest with themselves and take their ego out of their practice. |
Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
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cheers Mark |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
I think that Gozo Shioda was one of the few that got it! it is very hard to say who is using internals without feeling it. I do not think that O'sensei's uke's were all just making him look good. If his students thought he was a fraud they would not have kept training. they felt it and the wanted it. Just as we all do. His great feats have been felt, seen and written about. he tapped into his internal strength, but I don't think it was passed on, and the Aikido of today is sooooo far from what he was doing, that Aikidoka may never be able to find it by just training in Aikido. I have contacted a Chi Gong instructor That was a student of Bruce Frantzis. Bruce trained with O'sensei for a few years before his death and saw and felt his power. But as he said, it wasn't passed down, so he looked in the internal chinese arts to find it. Ki, chi, or whatever you want to call it exists, but now we have the problem of finding how tap into it and use it it real time, in a real situation, not by doing exercises like the unbendable arm. Does anyone here have any real stories of a modern day Aikido instructor doing what O'sensei was able to do?
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
One of the reasons explained to me, by one of ueshiba's students, why many "did not get it" is that osensei just did technique and then said, "okay now you do it".
He didn't explain, he left his students to figure it out for themselves. Some got it some didn't, sounds like a normal dojo to me. Aran |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
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What, specifically, do you mean by "what O'sensei was able to do?" I was born after Morihei sensei's death, so I have no firsthand experience with how he felt. Only stories. However, I'm iconoclastic (read: prick) enough not to believe any stories until I prove them myself. Unfortunately, since he's gone... stories are just stories. I will say without reservation, though, that I never felt anyone in Japan do the things that my teachers and seniors here can do. |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
Well they may be stories! but I, and many feel that he didn't pass along all of his teachings to his students. Many people believe great tales of the bible, and follow it page by page, but no one living has ever had fist hand experience of what was written. We do however have Living Uchi Deschi that have confirmed O'Sensei's Abilities. chances are you are still just doing waza.
(read prick)? |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
if people already surpassed him, we wouldn't be having discussions on these boards about it. People like tohei, said he didn't teach it, so he had to look elsewhere to find it. I speak of his internal skills that he applied in conjunction with his Aikido. I am familiar with your Dojo, I am not Familiar with you however. I have had the experience to feel the power of Aikido and internal arts combined. I have felt and seen the real deal. Most schools that I have had the pleasure of training and/or observing are just doing waza. Ukes bail out way before they should, instructors techniques are weak, and the students seem to be afraid to ask what if! O'Sensei was challenged by some of the best martial artists of his time, and he beat them, Aikido waza alone was not responsible for the feats he did. Chuck Clark is a Good instructor, you are very lucky to train with him, I have not had the pleasure of training with him, however, if someone from your dojo would care to invite me to train for an hour or two I would jump at the chance.
OSU! |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
you never explained the (read prick)!
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
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This is, unfortunately, a logical fallacy which, if I recall correctly, is known as "denying the antecedent." Lots of things in this universe have been "proven" and "disproven," yet people still keep talking about them. Quote:
At the risk of feeling like a schmuck for posting a quote... this is a favorite and somewhat appropriate to this discussion: "He who would do good to another must do it in minute particulars; general good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite, and flatterer, for art and science cannot exist but in minutely organized particulars." ~ William Blake Quote:
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I am curious, though... if you've never trained with him or any of the rest of us... how do you know he's a good instructor? Quote:
Best of luck in your training. |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
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As I use it, it's a modifier that adds flavor or clarifies the previous word or phrase. I'm a bit embarrassed that I don't know the grammatical term (if, indeed, there is one) for it. For example: Girl: I'm really not dating right now (read: not dating YOU). HTH |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
well if you have to ask what O'sensei was doing, and you have not figured it out you are just doing waza. if you don't know what internal arts are or what they feel like you are just doing waza. As far as training at your dojo, I discussed this with chuck Via private message, which is between he and I not u.
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
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Best of luck. |
Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
Well I know what I have read I know what I have felt, and I know what I have seen. it is not very hard to see if someone is controlling another person is it? Could I resist most of the the Aikido instructors techniques, Yes! Would I in front of a class, NO! You missed my answer to the question, O'Sensei was using internal power in conjunction with his waza! not sure how I could explain it any better. Also I really don't care if you are the acting instructor or the president of the U.S.A. when two people have a conversation, via (private) that's what it is. As far as your dojo, I don't care to be a part of it. You get all pissy because I didn't join? you don't even know the reason why. Also I can tell if someone is a good instructor or if they suck by watching, I have seen alot of shit schools, when you have been in this a a while I think we can determine what is good and what is bad. As far as u finding out what I know! I Guess i know more than u about O'sensei and his Students. Perhaps u should get O'sensei's bio, by john stevens, if you are going to train in the art u should probably know the history of the founder
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"
Mr. Sloan,
I provided information for you about why you were not invited onto our mat the one time you came into our dojo without an invitation or prior notice. I remember wishing you good luck in finding a place to train. (By they way, meeting me on one brief occasion wasn't an invitation to call me by my first name. I'm relatively old fashioned.) Sincerely, |
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