Re: Children and adults together
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Re: Children and adults together
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There was one woman I looked forward to working out with, she is a 4th dan in hapkido, can do spinkicks over my head with ease (which is hot) and is one of the most martial people I have ever met. I would not say that I have a philosophical or ethical objection to working out with women, it is just that I have had some bad experiences with them in the past, and class runs smoother when theyre not involved (I would say that it would be fair to assume that the inverse is true also) . Just my observations about classes I have been to. later bettis |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
Ugh. The last sex-segregated thing I did was a bachelor getaway weekend at a cabin, prior to a friend's wedding. Men behave horribly when no women are around. It was both disgusting and boring. I came away thinking that if I had to live in a sex-segregated society, I'd kill myself. One of the main things I like about Aikido is that there are lots of women involved and it's not some sweaty jockstrap, towel-snapping boys club.
Another thing, I have done a bit of hostel travelling. From my experience and talking to people who run hostels, it turns out that mixed-sex dorm rooms tend to work better than single sex. The men are cleaner and the women are more friendly. I consider separating the sexes an artifact of a less civilized era. |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
I hate sex-segregated practice. It's a: unrealistic, and b: boring.
We have much to learn from each other, men and women, and segregating the sexes simply reinforces stereotypical training. Unless you can practice effectively and with intent with someone half your size or half-again your size, you ain't training right. My MLE interviewed a (THE US Army) boxing coach 2-3 years ago, asking about his views on teaching women. He said, if you won't train women, you shouldn't train anybody. I agree. And add the conjunction 'with' ... cg |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
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If you insist the same holds for adults, well that is indeed a throw-back. I don't know how inflammatory this next comment might be, because I'm not female, but I am of the opinion that training in martial arts, and so in aikido, is more important for women than men. Training with women would be worthwhile, but to restrict them to such is nonsense, as they will most likely need to employ martial arts against men. I have no figures handy, (a sin of responsible posting, I know) but I'll bet my life's earnings, before and after today, that the odds favor most violent acts being commited by the male of our fine species. In short, Isaac, I see what you mean, but do you see what you say? ;) michael. |
Children and adults is nothing like men and women
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Wouldn't that be nice, if we never had to deal with people different from us? If you are teaching English, you may not be Korean. Things may be different. How does that feel? I have to deal with men all the time. Regardless of how clumsy, closeminded and stinky I might think they are, I have to hold my nose and deal. Then there's the whole IQ problem. Men are too stupid to figure out how much smarter women are. Not nice eh? Yes, I am being confrontational. It's not pleasant to be a second class citizen, is it. Welcome to our world as you see it. Quote:
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I have had bad experiences with both sexes. Some of my worst experiences have been with men who didn't think, or understand, that women should be on the mat. Some of the other worst have been with women who didn't want any competition (however they saw that!). Some of the best have been at the hands of men, and women, who were secure enough to help others succeed. Like Einstein said, it's all relative. ED Gordon I've said it all before here: http://ejmas.com/proceedings/GSJSA03dolan.htm |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
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Best, Ron (I'm only stinky in those [ahem] "gassy" moments) :yuck: |
Re: Children and adults together
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Likewise, I would assume that many people who are home-schooled or whom receive private lessons in something progress "better" than those distracted by others and the subject of interpersonal relationships and differing interpretations and interests amongst peers. However, this type of environment is unrealistic, as everyday life inevitably involves a lot less isolation and segregation. The skills that are useful in the broader context are exactly the types of skills that being shunted off by this imposed, artificial separation. If the students are not to learn (or at least exercise) these interpersonal skills in school or in the dojo, when are they supposed to learn them? Are these skills not especially helpful to an art such as Aikido that is an inherently social art? You're learning more in the school or in the dojo then what is taught on the syllabus. I personally think that learning to deal with personal relationships is a long-term benefit that outweighs the short-term issues and short-term benefit of an extra hundred facts, theorems, or techniques being learned. Rob |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
First of all, pairing midschool aged kids together in a coed physical situation is not really condusive to learning. Too many hormones running around!
However I do completely agree with Emily and Mike on this one! We are not there to be "hot" (totally sexist remark BTW) but to learn how to defend ourselves against people that are out to physically attack us. If we don't train against the attack, then we become victims. THAT is why we train. Are you the Uke for each one of those girls you teach in middle school? No? Then how are they going to know what to do if an adult male attacks them? I am the only adult female in my dojo, I have a teenage girl that works out with us as well. Her father, who is often my Uke, makes sure that she works in with the big guys so that she knows what it will feel like if she is attacked on the street, and what her reaction would be. THAT is why we train. I do understand that there is, perhaps, a different social climate in Korea then here in the US and if I were to move to Korea, I would be respectful and not expect men to train with me, since that seems to be their custom. However, here in the US, it is quite a different story! |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
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Take as an example every professional-level MMA training hall. How many are mixed-gender? Do you think it's because all those men have psychological hang-ups that need to be corrected or balanced? Would mixed-gender practice make them more in shape to win competitive matches? I can see both sides of it... both the dojo's where mixed-gender is the norm and dojo's/training-halls where single-sex is the norm. Each to his own, as far as I'm concerned. Single-sex training halls don't call for as much approbation as trying to lay guilt trips on people, IMO. Mike Sigman |
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Re: Children and adults is nothing like men and women
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I really dont think that what I said was all that objectionable. I have a better experience training in an all male environment. That is all I was saying. I was stating that it was my prefrence. I am sure that there are people who want to train in a co-ed environmnet, and I know of people who do not (both men and women). The both can co-exist. There is no reason that they cannot. And, there are many women I am sure that I would greatly enjoy training with, and there are some women that I am greatful to have trained with, but as a matter of course, I enjoy training with men better, and feel that I learn more. All of you people are right, we do all have to live and work together, and I dont think that we ought to live in a sex segragated society. I dont think that what I wrote suggested that. If it did then I misrepresented my position. My position is that I think some or most people would (or could) benifit from male/female only classes. From my limited expierence my students do. Maybe it is unfair to compare adults to middle school students, but maybe not. I am not really sure yet. Give me 10 years of experience with them and I will let you know. But the idea that something as dinosaurian just because it does not jive with your "wordview" (I hate that word) is a bit excessive. What is your evidence. Look, I am not trying to come off as sexist and don't think that what I am saying is, all I am trying to say is that I think both sexes would do well to train in their own space. For some that would mean all female classes, for some all male classes, and for some co-ed classes. I happen to have foudn that I fit better in one niche than anthoher. Someone asked me a question. I awnsered it honestly, for that I am unapologetic. Quote:
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Re: Men and Women Training Together
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Re: Men and Women Training Together
Actually, Einstein never said everything was relative, nor is it implied by his theories of relativity. In fact, the theories allow one to take account of the relative differences between space and time frames and make exact quantitative measurements - it is intended as a means to 'cancel out' the relativity in a problem. The relativity referred to by the name has to do with differences between objects that are traveling near the speed of light in different directions, or near huge gravitation sources. For objects like a bunch of humans stuck to the surface of one planet, it makes such a small difference from measuring things the old Newtonian way that it is insignificant. There is no way to legitimately extrapolate from the relativity of space and time frames to arenas like cultural differences. Einstein was very outspoken politically, and not a relativist in the philosophical sense at all.
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Re: Men and Women Training Together
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Your point is illogical - putting the cart before the horse. If you want to train hardcore for MMA fights, what you are probably looking for are strong people who like extremely rough training. Most women probably won't want to be involved in it because they are generally smaller and not into that sort of thing. However, this is merely a tendency, not a rule. The makeup of such a class will likely be all-male by selecting based on performance criteria. The element of sex discrimination is unnecessary. If some huge, tough woman who was really good showed up, a dojo of your description would turn her away, to their detriment. To make it more clear: If one did a thorough demographic analysis, one would probably also find all sorts of other categories of people who aren't likely to be suited for such an MMA class: maybe interior decorators, people who write romance novels, collectors of Precious Moments figurines, whatever... There is no need to find out who all these groups are and expressly exclude them, as it will all happen naturally based on performance-based selection criteria. |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
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There is no case that can be made for mixing of genders as other than a social comment, if the focus of the martial training is indeed on martial excellence. And of course when I say that, I don't exclude women at all.... I simply say that they, like the men, need to be able to walk the walk. "Gender diversity" has got nothing to do with good fighting, when you cut to the chase. FWIW Mike |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
If you really thought I was repeating what you said, you didn't understand what I said, or what you previously said, or both. You referred to "single sex training halls" and wanting to train at "all-male" dojos. The first is stating that the training hall is single sex by design, not happenstance, and the second implies that the lack of females training at the dojo would be your selection criteria, not performance level.
I doubt anyone on this board said or implied that a certain quota of women should be forced upon every martial arts class everywhere. If that is what you were arguing against, then you misinterpreted most or all of the posts you were responding to and grossly misstated your response. The original guy did not say that he liked to train so brutally that he happened to end up in classes with no women in them, he said he did not like to train with women. The people here are objecting to the idea of excluding women by design, and of an express preference not to train with women. |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
COED NAKED AIKIDO!!! to be followed by COED NAKED GRAPPLING class!!! HOORAY!!! I'm there! :D
But seriously... i enjoy training with females some of my favorite (best) instructors are... gives you a different perspective since IMO females tend to be naturally better aikidoka... don't rely on upperbody and lower center and all... plus they smell better... ;) |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
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If I have set goals in my training and I don't want to train with women or with too-aggressive men or *whatever*, they're my goals and preferences and I should be able to decide what I want to do without anyone haranguing me because my decisions don't conform with their established "correctness". It's that simple. I go to a dojo to train, not socialize. And yes, a lot of dojos are run by "dojo momma's" who pretty much decide who fits and who doesn't, according to their own views of political correctness. I don't complain; I just leave. Same way I leave a dojo that is run by a "herd bull" type guy who is running his own little empire of followers. Each to his own, I allus sez. Mike |
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Dojo momma's, herd bull's, dive bunny's...You crack me up. What dojo do you train at BTY? |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
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Mike |
Re: Men and Women Training Together
You forgot to tell me where you train at Mike.
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Re: Men and Women Training Together
OK, Mike, now it's clear. Your first post was not a misstatement and you did not understand my objection to your response. You are conflating sex discrimination and performance-based training goals in a way that you can't really account for. You are saying that you want to be able to act in accordance with your prejudices and boldly state them in public with complete impunity... without even having to hear a sentence or two of criticism. This seems silly to me, given that your prejudice in this case is clearly unpopular. That's not the way freedom or free speech works. Besides, I don't see how such senstitivity to a few lines of criticism squares with being a hard-training tough guy who sees no other purpose to training besides better fighting. Why not just take it like a man, so to speak?
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Re: Men and Women Training Together
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Mike Sigman |
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