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Sure, the pain part might be there, but it needn't be nor should it be relied upon. Better in my opinion to treat techniques like nikkyo and yonkyo as balance breaking techniques than pain-producing ones. The pain is just the icing on the proverbial cake in my mind... -- Jun |
I agree Jun! I have really noticed the focus on pain compliance in Yonkyo. More than once I've seen folks standing there in intense concentration trying to find "it". Meanwhile, Uke is standing there looking at them with plenty of time to do a reversal or worse! Quite a while ago I learned a lot from a woman in the mid Kyu ranks that was having nothing but trouble getting some of her thicker forearmed partners to twitch in pain from the technique. She started focusing on not trying to get the pressure point (she just placed her hand on the forearm) and focused on taking Ukes' balance. What a revelation! Once she got that out of the way and under control, she is able to get the pressure point easier and under safer circumstances (while Uke is already off balance or on the ground).
I also understand where Cas is coming from though; it seems the thicker the arm the more difficult is to find the "point of pain". I have found that the thicker the forearm the closer one needs be towards the wrist to get that Yonkyo jolt. One other point of interest to me regarding Yonkyo is that in Acupuncture, the Yonkyo pressure point is the heart meridian. I took some Tai Chi from a Sifu that also ran an Acupuncture school and when he showed the point where they put the needle into someone having a heart attack, it was right there! He finds the point by putting the web of his hand (between his thumb and forefinger) to the web of the patients' hand (same place) and touches the forearm with his middle finger. That is where the needle is placed. Kinda cool, eh? |
Jun....
Hi,
If you read my thread in Yonkyo in its whole form, I was not the one mentioning pain or bruises, but how the technique works from a physiological viewpoint, as the index finger does indeed manipulate the radial nerve- this is only one element of the technique. Please allow me to quote what else I said: "However, although Yonkyo pressure is "easier" to perform on a more slender arm,it is possible to perform it on a thicker arm if the movement involved in exposing the radial nerve is three-dimensional; therefore the hips play a greater part in the technique than the arms. Strong, centralised hip movement should always overcome the strength in one arm, especially when the Uke's balance is completely taken, & everything remains in the Nage's centre." I think that with this view as a whole, that I also cover your point. Kind Regards, |
Hi Cas,
Yes, I did read what you wrote, but I just wanted to express my disagreement that yonkyo relies on pain. My thought is that yonkyo does not necessarily involve the radial nerve but is, as is the rest of aikido, more reliant upon balance breaking. I feel that relying upon finding the pressure point is a lot less reliable than working towards a balance break. I've been the recipient of very effective yonkyo which did not produce an ounce of pain... -- Jun |
Jun,
I agree with your post. Pain tolerance is different in everyone. The inability to stand up due to structural problems affects us all. Many aikidoka think that a combination of the two is the answer. Of course, it is an option. I do not like to "cause pain" though. I think when we create the pain it is a direct link to our center and where our power is coming from. If we lock a joint (kime) and have the uke's structure so off-balance that the only way they can regain their posture is to cause their own pain into the locked joint or take the ukemi it is very difficult to counter or get away. Of course we should lock the uke into a control after the initial technique so they must "give up" in order to get out of the situation. |
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I am having some difficulty understanding your post and was wondering if you could clarify for me. First of all, I have read your quote of Cas Long's post and nowhere do I find any mention of the word 'pain', so I was wondering where you made the association? I would also agree with you that it is absolutely necessary to take the Uke's balance to execute any technique correctly. Having said that, I am wondering why ‘O'-Sensei would have spent many long arduous years codifying the techniques of Aikido into the specific groupings that we know today, if balance-breaking was the sole function and purpose of the techniques. After all, there are easier ways to unbalance someone than Nikyo or Sankyo! A for-instance: In Kata dori, the Nage must move off the line to unbalance the Uke before even thinking of executing any of Ikkyo through Yonkyo, if they do not want to open themselves to possible further attack. Once the Uke has been initially unbalanced, it is necessary to make sure that they stay unbalanced until completion of the movement (whatever that may be). It seems to me that the diversity of the technical movements must exist to teach the student various principles. Yonkyo is the fourth principle of immobilisation, and pre-supposes a very firm grasp of the principles contained in Ikkyo through Sankyo. The successful execution of Yonkyo requires good technique, because the immobilisation must be performed in a very precise manner. On page 49 of ‘O'-Sensei's training manual Budo it states in the note for technique 15. (Yonkyo): "Placement of your (left) hand in this technique is as follows: hold the opponent's wrist tightly with both the little and ring fingers and use the knuckle at the base of the index finger to apply strong pressure to his pulse. (This is known as "Pin Number Four.")" To reach this position and make the hand changes, it is necessary, in the basic forms, to pass through Ikkyo and Sankyo. This is because the pressure stimulates and compresses the radial nerve. Once again, I have to agree with Cas in this respect, and it is interesting that ‘O'-Sensei states that we must use ‘ strong pressure'. The technique's definition is after all ‘Tekubi Osae' or wrist pinning or control. The radial nerve wraps around the humerus in the radial groove. It runs anteriorly and divides into a superficial and deep branch. It is on the radial side of the arm, around the radius, about 5 cm upwards from the crease of the wrist, that the nerve is closest to the surface. The turning of the Uke's forearm in both Omote and Ura variations serves to bring the nerve as far upwards towards the surface as possible, whilst still keeping Uke off-balance. The pressure is then applied to this area (and sometimes in Ura variations against the outside of the radial bone) in a concentrated Ken-holding manner. This maybe why the study of Aiki-Ken and Aiki-Jo is so necessary to Tai-Jutsu…but this is the subject of another thread! It is of course necessary, as I have said, to keep the Uke continually off-balance, and the immobilisation must be completed as I think Cas said, in a three-dimensional movement, using strong co-ordinated hip turns. The final pin should still maintain the pressure on Uke's forearm but also completes Uke's immobilisation on the mat through the shoulder, and ensures an inability to escape by a rotation of the hips to the outside. This is all based on the Yonkyo grab being in the Nage's centre-line. I would say that 'pain' is a by-product of the technique being executed correctly. Since the radial nerve when found and pressured can be quite sensitive. Strong pressure can sometimes lead to a brief inability to extend the hand at the wrist. Clearly though, depending on various body types, the nerve is sometimes hard to access and with forearm development through techniques like Nikyo, and the study of Aiki-Ken, can be all but impossible to find. As you have rightly pointed out, Yonkyo is still possible without ‘pain', so the complete form of the technique must be studied from the initial un-balancing right up to the final pin. I would venture to suggest the you slightly misinterpreted the sense of Cas's post, since she spoke only of finding it difficult to locate the radial nerve and cause compression in certain body types and then went on to say that full use of the hips and body is necessary to complete the movement and un-balance Uke. I think that the technique is designed to impart Ken holding principles through the holding pattern and the development of strong hip turns in the pin. ‘Pain' results when the technique is precisely applied. I would draw all practitioners' attention to a quote of ‘O'-Sensei that appears in Morihiro Saito's Traditional Aikido Vol 4 on page 18: "The Founder, however, strictly warned that 'a technique will lose its effectiveness unless it is delivered with perfect precision.'" Only my thoughts. Chris Tozer |
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I'm curious -- is there a way to compress the radial nerve and not cause pain? Quote:
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However, no where above does the founder refer to "pain"... Quote:
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I do apologize if I misinterpreted Cas as that was not my intention. I just personally dislike it when people think yonkyo is a good time to take Jun's otherwise spindly little forearm and crush it to bits; makes me want to poke out an eyeball or two... -- Jun PS: Good discussion, by the way. |
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I have not presented the condition of pain as a pre-requisite for the successful execution of the technique. Merely that when executed correctly and precisely, pain will more often than not, be the result. In my opinion, if you do not pressure the wrist it is not Yonkyo and it should then be called something else. Quote:
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You are quite right to say that there is no reference to pain, but I did not say that there was. I was merely stating the technical requirement in Yonkyo, as stated by the Founder, to strongly pressure the Uke's wrist. Quote:
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I am very interested to know who you apply Nikyo and Sankyo without causing any pain to your Uke. Also how do the techniques of Ikkyo through Yonkyo strengthen the body if there is no stimulation of the joints. akiy wrote: Quote:
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Our dojo (and my teacher) is very big on applying kuzushi (at the latest) at the first point of contact. The same goes for techniques like yonkyo for us. Of course, I'm not saying that no one else does this but that we emphasize this a lot more than most people. We don't even talk about the "yonkyo pressure point," really, but treat it as a technique that's probably closer to sumi otoshi. Quote:
However, I'll have to disagree with your contention that aikido techniques when executed correctly will cause pain. I personally don't think they need to, as I've felt a lot of techniques (including yonkyo and nikyo) which were effective on me and did not cause me pain. Quote:
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I have, however, felt people who have been able to effectively take my balance and take me to the ground using techniques like nikyo, sankyo, and yonkyo without pain. Quote:
-- Jun |
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I'm not trying to be smart or anything. Could you explain this for Nikyo as an example, and how it was done to you? No problem if you can't. It was great talking with you. [Edited by chris on August 17, 2000 at 06:00pm] |
painless
Funny, I was always taught to use the radius for yonkyo and specifically not to aim for the nerve. The reasoning given was that if you get used to having the pain of stimulating the radial nerve aid in the throw you will not be able to do the technique well against somebody with a high pain threshold. Of course, my sensei also said that should you happen to find it without looking for it...
As far as nikyo and sankyo being painless, I have been thrown using both those techniques without anything more than a mild stretching, no pain at all. I don't know if I've ever achieved that myself, it's a little hard to tell on the throwing end. Especially with nikyo I feel it when nage breaks my balance, then uses the focus against my forearm to drop me into his center. This, of course, would only work if uke was trying to attack with the other hand, but that seems to me to be the point of the technique anyhow. It also seems that any time spent finding the pain in a technique is a lovely time for uke to dot your i's and cross your t's. Just my opinions of course, Paul |
yonkyo works with or without the nerve my teacher ( still cant spell :) ( I cant spell i mean:) describes the throw like a wirlwind or tornado u point the arm where u want it to go then pivot:) this is oversiplifyed but bacicaly wiat it is. or the revers picot then point they both work and hardly fail.
on net fealing pain and just break balance is easy u move with their arm arm and they fall |
sorry about spelling.. how do u edit ur post? anyhow wiat is what
and picot is pivot revers like backwards cant spell it though :( |
i'm way over my head here, but i can't resist. I'm way too much of a beginner to speak with any meaning on radial nerve vs. balance vs. radius pressure vs pushing on the wrist...but i can tell you what i do and don't feel. I don't feel yonkyo as a pain technique. yes, perhaps if YOU do it, i will, but probably not. i don't know why, i may just be pain tolerant, or i'm wired funny. so no matter how precisely nage places his hands, he probably is not going to be on the nerve, or it doesn't necessarily cause pain. or both. i do know that i often stand there watching my nage while he searches, for what seems like a LONG time. even when i warn my partner i won't feel the pressure point. like with Jun, they seem to enjoy squeezing my thin little arm. so when i think of yonkyo, what i want to get, is how i feel the technique from the few who don't even look for that point: the slack being taken out of my arm and a cut to my center with it---which doesn't hurt, either, but looks amazingly like yonkyo. so i think you can definately do this technique (correctly) without pain. i wish i could tell you how nikyo, sankyo, and rokyo are done without pain---because i've been on the receiving end of painless versions of all. it just felt like a very solid connection (not clash) with nage and then i was turning inside myself. maybe its a practice thing, or maybe the focus of nage has to be on connection and center, rather than the joint. it just feels really different than one that uses the joint pain only---to this very junior white belt at least.
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Maybe some day I'll be able to do something resembling this. Maybe then I'll be able to describe it better. Good discussion. Really made me think... -- Jun |
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Also, I personally find the the "u" and "ur" abbreviations hard to read. I know it's the vogue thing to do in IRC and such, but... -- Jun |
Jerry's 'Final Thought'
Hi all,
A very interesting and revealing discussion. I think everyone agrees that the application of Yonkyo is possible both with and without the 'pain' that results from pressuring the radial nerve or bone (see my previous posts), and can be done by focusing or not on this pressure, as the Nage wants, or as the Uke's body type dictates. My argument is that the basic form of Yonkyo, as developed by the Founder, requires a pressuring of the wrist along with the un-balancing that occurs through a firm understanding of Ikkyo and Sankyo. That is what makes it Yonkyo and why it is referred to as 'Tekubi Osae'. I believe this Yonkyo form (and all the other forms) serves a distinct purpose, since the techniques are all vehicles for teaching principles that can be applied at any time, even out of context (of the technique). From what people have replied, it looks as though my posts have been interpreted as 'having' to apply pain for this (or any other) technique to work. Quote:
I don't think that any time should be spent 'looking for' and/or 'finding' pain. (Though I know what you mean Jun, when you say that causation of pain is the focus for many people.):) I have only stated that, in my experience, pain is often a by-product that comes from a correctly executed technique (ie. where there are no openings to escape or counter for the Uke). I totally agree that pain is not the purpose of the technique. My experience is of course subjective, if that is not your experience, then that's fine too. :D |
Re: Jerry's 'Final Thought'
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I guess it might have just been the difference of you saying "toe may toe" and my saying "toe mah toe." Same same. -- Jun |
Great Debate
Its great to see two Masters at work!
Sure, kuzuchi is an integral part of the correct execution of any technique, but we must always bear in mind the Founder's "Aim" of any given technique, even if we have difficulty in executing that technique. The style of Aikido that I myself study, lends itself to scientific princples: Anatomy & Physics in conjuction with the Founder's "Aim". This is not to say that I subscribe to inflicting pain at all costs to render a technique effective, as Aikido is multi-faceted & teaches us many things. My emphasis is always on precision (tempered of course, to the level of the Uke),but I do feel that this precision warrants the title "Martial": Precision does not always mean pain. I can also appreciate the "Art" & the beauty of movement. We are very fortunate to participate in an activity rich in dualities- this excellent thread illustrates this. Many thanks Jun & Chris..... [Edited by Cas Long on August 18, 2000 at 09:34am] |
Yes and Yes
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the only thing i would object to is the statements that imply pain is the natural occurance or byproduct of the technique being applied precisely. some people do not feel the pressure point pain, and to think the lack of pain means imprecisely applied technique can lead nage to keep looking for something he'll never find, a painful spot.
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Ca,
Please read the entire post & the nuances within it- this point has already been dealt with. May I asy, "Bravo" for your previous posts on "Training With Women...." |
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