Re: Commitment into the attack
Perhaps the problem isn't in the commitment of the attack (agreed - very rare), but the commitment and confidence in your response.
When you find those of us who do know how to strike, don't critique or criticize us. Stay open and train hard. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Your quandary is explored and answers are immediately relevant at each and every Ushiro Sensei seminar. Most Aikidoka would be incapable of dealing with the nature and kind of attacks that Ushiro Sensei's students offer up. If you want to see how to make waza work with committed, sincere, genuine attacks, come on down Szczepan and experience it first hand. Then again, you will then also have to deal with the kind of stuff that you don't personally believe in as well ;) .
Marc Abrams |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
The problem in martial arts is that often the mind is left untrained so when the punch is coming in we get caught up in protecting ourselves and not getting hit and in Aikido terms this means that we get stuck and held at bay unable to make our irimi movement. I don't think I'm saying anything contraversial when I say that without irimi there is no Aikido. I think that most of the time when we hear about Aikido not working it's not a technical issue, it's a psychological one. It's not a case of enlarging the opening or of needing a commited attack, it's being in state of mind that allows you to enter in when someone is trying to punch you in the face. Occasionally you see Aikidoka v other arts and you see it where the Aikidoka just stands there while the opponent throws strikes. If the opponent made shomen uchi they would probably stand there too. I'm sure if you put them in an Aikido dojo and tell them to make ikkyo from shomen uchi they enter in before uke can strike. If uke was planning a shomen, cross, jab combination they'd never have a chance to excute it before tori took them down, even if the shomen was short and fast. If we then take the Aikidoka and throw jodan tsuki at them they have no issue with that either, they're straight in like a shot. Throw a jab at them and they block it, cover up, move back. They have pleanty of time to react and react successfully in that they don't get hit but they react with fear rather than with aggression. So the opening is big enough but Aikidoka are just not psychologically prepared, on the whole, to exploit it. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
People who are better at attacking won't usually double weight themselves for you, so it's probably going to be pretty difficult to get that nice clean technique off the first attack. The particular training methods ought to be...Aikido - if they aren't, then something wrong :) . Best, Chris |
Re: Commitment into the attack
The issue isn't commitment to the attack, it's commited to attacking. In Aikido training all we expect of uke is to commit to that attack, first and last. If it so happens nage wasn't able to harmonize the first time, but didn't die from the first attack, uke should make his 'final' attack again.
If we have uke committed to fighting... Then I guess it'll be different. Sometimes the encounter is over from the get go but uke still fights on oblivious to the fact. By then, if it hasn't already degenerated into a sparring session, it would inevitably lead to one with both uke and nage busy trying to do something to one another. It's a fine line indeed to accepting an attack and initiating one of your own. So much depends on your ability to blend with uke's energy that sometimes it seems easier to just attack his being instead. Wrong... And can only get you so far. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
So, for me, a what we typically call a "committed attack" is committed, but unalive. that is...it lacks any substance to do anything of great consequence. an alive attack has something behind it and it has nothing to do with the speed or force or strength of the attack. an alive attack changes the situation and forces you to have to do something different than what you might have intended to do. This is why you need structure...good structure. In all my experiences training for alive attacks, they are very hard to get out of the way of and you pretty much have to use your frame of structure to absorb the attack and disapate the force in such a way that you can use it to gain control of the situation. The principle of OODA really dictates this. The irony to me is if it is a good attack and an alive attack...you simply cannot "move off the line" or side step it, or blend with it...you must accept it and the energy in it and then attempt to gain control. Again, this is if the attack is alive or real. For me, I am either in control of the fight and uke is backpedaling, or I am not. If I am in control, uke is behind me and cannot launch a good attack, if I am behind and uke is attack...then a good attack means I am NOT in control and uke can effectively attack me. A good attack means I must deal with what he is going to me first. Hope this make sense. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
If ultimate goal of practice is to be able to respond spontaneously to any situational scenario, and we constantly train only one case - strongly committed attack - we will never reach such goal even with very hard training. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
On the other hand, a simple irimi is often not sophisticated enough as a solution. Advanced attacker will early see the intent of entry and will modify his behavior. Here I agree with Dazzler that we have to carefully study peoples behavior in different situations do develop our eyes. I strongly believe that aikidoka must become a master of reading body language as a first step to his mind training. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
|
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
|
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
Like anything else - you work up to it, in stages, in controlled situations. Chinese arts have been doing that kind of thing with push hands of various types for...a long time. Of course, the training method is going to look a little different from conventional Aikido.:) Best, Chris |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
Based on this rule; the attacker only readjusts or pulls away because you tried to stop them or interfere. Allowing the commitment of the attacker to take place is the key. Another point is that there is a reason for the type of attacks in Aikido and this reason needs thinking about and clearing in your mind before you can understand why? Maybe I'll start a thread on this for I haven't seen anyone explain it to my satisfaction yet. Reading body language is one way of putting it so I agree there for in 'alive' attacks that's the main thing, however there is a process to do first before you can move correctly in that situation wouldn't you say? Regards.G. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Why not share what you know with your partner to get the kind of attack you seek?
This may not apply to you, but I hear many more experienced aikido practitioners complain about poor attacks (teachers/instructors included), but very rarely are students shown what a "committed" attack is. A productive outcome for all involved. I come from the school of training (in all arts I've tried) that there is no such thing as a poor attack, but rather a poor response. my two bits. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
Marc Abrams |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
|
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
|
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
hahaha, I share it without hesitation, no prob. That is why almost everybody hate practice with me :) almost because exceptionally JO likes it :confused: |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
Practice keeping ma-ai and it will have no effect this 'real minimum' situation. Do it as a discipline, don't try to grab etc' just keep ma-ai. Then he will have to commit to get you. Meanwhile, if the attack is so 'real minimum; and you notice this whilst keeping ma ai then you can commit, enter and take over. Another discipline. How and when to enter. Ma- ai and entering. Two things to practice related to and vital to the subject of commitment. A process once again. no short cuts. If you get very good then the concept of entering equals game over. Now that's commitment. Regards.G. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
|
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
Someone punches or kicks or rushes to grab. You apply what I call aiki and that is motion. You move in such a way that it allows the attack to happen. You don't try to stop it or go against it. This is mind and body together. Tai sabaki and tenkan for example are motions designed for this purpose. Motion without resistance. Now mind. If you have fighting mind then mind is against, ready to counter, to stop, to interfere. No, you must have mind of allow, welcome, invite. That's the discipline of mind needed for the normal 'mind' is not so disciplined and reacts against automatically. You can even test what I say as a drill with a partner. Something I do as a drill but don't know how many others do so I can only speak for myself. You get nage and uke facing each other with uke ready to attack tsuki, or whatever, it doesn't matter really. Now the drill is that uke must not attack if he feels he isn't welcome. This is one frustrating and harsh drill but essential in my way of doing things. You see if the attacker feels the least be wary he has the right not to attack. Thus it is down to nage to control his own mind and feeling towards the attacker. When an attacker feels he can safely strike he commits, that's the hard simplicity. Thus the concept of leading the attacker takes on a different meaning for if you are causing him to attack and move in accordance, motion, the you are actually cause and he is effect. Thus you are harmonizing with the attack and yet in control. Aikido. Regards.G. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
The worst case senario is that you mistime your irimi or get caught out by a feint and they back off, in which case you chase after them. If they're going back I don't let them pause to get a base to strike me from. I can do Aikido on the run, few people can effectively strike on the run. As it is I don't find that even quite skilled martial artists read what's going on. Aikido's approach is just too unique. I can't think of another art where people respond to a strike by moving forward, except maybe BJJ and their method of entry is different although the principle of kuzushi on contact is still there. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
|
Re: Commitment into the attack
Quote:
Take a look at I Liq Chuan - I'm not comparing it to Aikido, but you can see a good example of a well thought out curriculum that builds those kinds of skills in a consistent manner. Best, Chris |
Re: Commitment into the attack
Great thread. Alex, Kevin and Graham all bring up good points.
I think that a big part of the "problem" is that because we don't train against "alive" attacks, we don't learn to recognize the moment of commitment. Ironically, I believe, this is what aiki is all about, and yet, the way in which most aikido is practiced ensures that one will almost never encounter an opportunity to train it. Too often, uke commits himself to being thrown or facilitating the technique. There is no problem with this per se. It is probably a necessary part of training. The problem is that aikidoists seldom go beyond this point, which is, frankly, a very basic level. Quote:
Quote:
How to do it? I honestly can't tell you. Start looking for it, and then do it. I still cannot do it consistently, but I can notice it, and do it more frequently now than I could three months ago. Quote:
Quote:
It is the essence of the true counter puncher. |
Re: Commitment into the attack
The appropriateness I think comes from experiences. You need to put yourself in the contraints of the "problem" and work through your solutions in order to develop the appropriate response.
It goes back to your earlier statement that Aikidoka seldom practice things beyond "this point". |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:57 AM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.