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-   -   Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19358)

Michael Varin 02-05-2011 04:59 AM

Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
It is often said that you cannot see "IP/IT/IS" in a video, or at least, you cannot see what is actually occurring. Many also say that you CAN see when someone is not doing/using "IP/IT/IS."

I would like to delve into this notion. Besides, finding out what something is not, can help us understand what it is.

My hopes for this thread are that people will post videos, or make reference to videos that have already been posted and state what they find impressive, what they believe is happening in the video, how the exercise/skill is beneficial, what they find lacking, etc.

Even better would be for some posters to take the time (probably less than one hour total) to make their own video of an area of their practice that they would like to share, and explain what is being shown by narration, text, or both.

Below are a few links that seem to pop up frequently.

Akuzawa in London 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA

Chen Bing MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

94 year old Ba Gua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

Mind, Body, Kick Ass segment with Kuroda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMSoXrNgo

Mike Sigman 02-05-2011 07:36 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 275668)
It is often said that you cannot see "IP/IT/IS" in a video, or at least, you cannot see what is actually occurring. Many also say that you CAN see when someone is not doing/using "IP/IT/IS."

I would like to delve into this notion. Besides, finding out what something is not, can help us understand what it is.

My hopes for this thread are that people will post videos, or make reference to videos that have already been posted and state what they find impressive, what they believe is happening in the video, how the exercise/skill is beneficial, what they find lacking, etc.

Even better would be for some posters to take the time (probably less than one hour total) to make their own video of an area of their practice that they would like to share, and explain what is being shown by narration, text, or both.

Below are a few links that seem to pop up frequently.

Akuzawa in London 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA

Chen Bing MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

94 year old Ba Gua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

Mind, Body, Kick Ass segment with Kuroda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMSoXrNgo

Let me give a very simple explanation, Michael. Instead of me videoing this, let's just use my old favorite picture of the one-legged stand trick:



Let's imagine 2 tries. In the first try Nage has not yet mentally arranged his structural paths inside (that's what "intent" means) and Uke just pushes him over. In the second attempt, Nage arranges his structure inside so that Uke's push is met with an angled force-path from the ground that acts as a brace under Uke's push; Uke is therefore pushing against the ground. You cannot see the minute changes that go on within the body to change the alignment paths, so seeing a picture or video isn't going to show you much. If, however, Nage has to drop down to two legs and lean a bit toward Uke and tense his shoulders, we know that he's almost certainly not using intent and is instead using some variation of normal strength. Often what you're looking for is based on your own experience through the years... and you're looking for what the demonstrator does wrong that tells you the story.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Gary David 02-05-2011 09:31 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Folks
Once starting down this road how long will it be before there will be any number of threads analyzing this teacher or that one. This is a path with many places to stubble and openings for the angry defense of individual teachers. ….it will end badly.

Mike Sigman 02-05-2011 10:51 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Gary Welborn wrote: (Post 275681)
Folks
Once starting down this road how long will it be before there will be any number of threads analyzing this teacher or that one. This is a path with many places to stubble and openings for the angry defense of individual teachers. .it will end badly.

On the other hand, if analyses are kept to the clinical, it's probably OK. The part I disagree with is that everyone in, say, Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, Karate, pretends that all teachers' stuff is legitimate when more experienced people know that a lot of a given teacher's stuff is not correct. When you deliberately go along with the pretense and diplomacy, you save the teacher's "face", but you basically consign the students and followers of that teacher to a bad place.

I've never forgotten one guy I worked with in New Hampshire once and he was a bright, 50-plus year-old guy. He caught the inferences of everything immediately. When we talked after the workshop I asked him what he was planning to do (in terms of training, based on the look at internal strength). He said he was just going to quit... he felt his teacher has taken his money and time and loyalty for so long that now he didn't have a chance to get things, this late in life. While I sympathize with "teachers", I also think that students are people worth worrying about, too. Clinical evaluations of internal strength demonstrations are fair, IMO, as long as the issue is kept clinical.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

DH 02-05-2011 11:13 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Hi Gary
Good point. As many here now know all to well-it is amazing how much invective, personal attacks, politicing, agenda and mixed messages can embroiled in these so called clinical discussions eh?. And as you also know they are worse behind closed doors.
The good news is that there is work being done in person by people who actually do *support* the efforts of teachers and student alike who want to learn instead of lip service.
Anyway, good cautionary note. Interesting years ahead for sure.
Dan

Mary Eastland 02-05-2011 12:50 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
In regard to the picture, nage is extending energy through his arm as uke tests progressivly stronger to help nage feel and trust his center.
Mary

Rob Watson 02-05-2011 02:29 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 275672)
Let me give a very simple explanation, Michael. Instead of me videoing this, let's just use my old favorite picture of the one-legged stand trick:



Let's imagine 2 tries. In the first try Nage has not yet mentally arranged his structural paths inside (that's what "intent" means) and Uke just pushes him over. In the second attempt, Nage arranges his structure inside so that Uke's push is met with an angled force-path from the ground that acts as a brace under Uke's push; Uke is therefore pushing against the ground. You cannot see the minute changes that go on within the body to change the alignment paths, so seeing a picture or video isn't going to show you much. If, however, Nage has to drop down to two legs and lean a bit toward Uke and tense his shoulders, we know that he's almost certainly not using intent and is instead using some variation of normal strength. Often what you're looking for is based on your own experience through the years... and you're looking for what the demonstrator does wrong that tells you the story.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Also cannot see the specific direction uke is pushing (or even if not pulling).

Mike Sigman 02-05-2011 02:35 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 275720)
Also cannot see the specific direction uke is pushing (or even if not pulling).

Let's assume for simplicity's sake that Uke is pushing generally in the direction that he is inclined and is looking. Fair enough?

Mike

graham christian 02-05-2011 06:00 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 275668)
It is often said that you cannot see "IP/IT/IS" in a video, or at least, you cannot see what is actually occurring. Many also say that you CAN see when someone is not doing/using "IP/IT/IS."

I would like to delve into this notion. Besides, finding out what something is not, can help us understand what it is.

My hopes for this thread are that people will post videos, or make reference to videos that have already been posted and state what they find impressive, what they believe is happening in the video, how the exercise/skill is beneficial, what they find lacking, etc.

Even better would be for some posters to take the time (probably less than one hour total) to make their own video of an area of their practice that they would like to share, and explain what is being shown by narration, text, or both.

Below are a few links that seem to pop up frequently.

Akuzawa in London 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA

Chen Bing MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

94 year old Ba Gua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

Mind, Body, Kick Ass segment with Kuroda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMSoXrNgo

Akuzawa is a good demonstration of maintaining center line.
Chen Bing is using Koshi and all is from koshi.
94yr old is using Hara.
Kuroda, firstly is meeting, leading, moving, cutting. Then it shows how he 'walks' from center. Then in freeform it is a demonstration of shin shin toitsu. Finally a demo of moving one point.
Regards.G.

ChrisHein 02-05-2011 06:11 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
All of those videos look like normal things to me. I don't see anything strange or unusual in them at all. Why would one need IP to do any of those things?

Mike Sigman 02-05-2011 07:12 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Chris, I think that a lot of these things are just getting started and your questions are valid one. Graham states his perceptions, just as everyone does, and those are the other side of the coin. On my part, I would say that there is simple physics involved, whether using athleticism or internal-strength (neijin), so I would actually take a third position from you or Graham on, for instance, the old Bagua guy. Hara is always assumed, but in the case of the old guy there is something else involved. Keep your mind open. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

graham christian 02-05-2011 08:15 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 275737)
Chris, I think that a lot of these things are just getting started and your questions are valid one. Graham states his perceptions, just as everyone does, and those are the other side of the coin. On my part, I would say that there is simple physics involved, whether using athleticism or internal-strength (neijin), so I would actually take a third position from you or Graham on, for instance, the old Bagua guy. Hara is always assumed, but in the case of the old guy there is something else involved. Keep your mind open. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike, my mind is open. To me it's Hara. What is it to you?
Regards.G.

Mike Sigman 02-05-2011 09:44 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 275738)
Mike, my mind is open. To me it's Hara. What is it to you?

Graham, I'm not being coy or evasive, but the thing the old guy does is something that took him a lot of years to work on and perfect and it's not the simple kokyu stuff that is being passed off as "Aiki" in all these discussions. My point is that a lot of the attempts at labelling right now are probably somewhat premature. On the general forum of QiJin I would call what the old man did a "pressure pulse" and that's about as far as I'd be willing to go. Of course soon I expect to hear that "pressure pulses" are being taught in some workshops. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

aikilouis 02-06-2011 05:18 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
What I see from the 94-old Bagua man video :

- with first uke (black tee shirt) :
When receiving uke's contact : Bagua man places his intent between his feet and the point of contact (shoulder the first time then chest), via his center, as if compressing a spring.
He then releases his body's stored energy (releases the spring) linearly to push uke away, using the ground as fixed point to transmit his extension to uke's end.
At the third attempt he guides uke away the same way but adding an extra element : he uses his perception of uke's structural weakness and guides his release to unbalance him "into a hole".

- with uke #2 (grey shirt) :
Same principle but : his spring is a spiral instead of a straight compression spring, winding under uke's energy, then unwinding to push him away.
Note that this time the push is made from Bagua man's side (it was from the front with uke #1)

- with uke #1 and uke #3 simultaneously :
Simultaneous winding/unwinding movements on both sides at the same time (one spiral spring for each uke)
His release is quicker this time. I would say that he previously released his stored energy progressively while with this attempt his intent blocks the stored energy (as if cocking an internal pistol trigger) then "pulls the trigger", thus releasing the stored energy more suddenly.
To take a more bodily analogy, the first attempts are like blowing his nose, this one is like sneezing (both result in air being pushed out of the nose, but the internal processes are different).

- with uke#3 alone (white shirt) :
Sudden releases from the side, but this time he seems to drop his weight (see movement of the hand on the other side at the first attempt), then uses some kind of rebound to send the energy to uke. The elbow of the grabbed arm also seems to indicate a quick downward movement before the push.

- with uke #2 :
Sudden releases from the side, the position and relaxed state of the grabbed arm clearly indicating that it cannot be the source of the push. It could at best only convey power originating from the body.
I also interpret the time when Bagua man shows as he could lose his balance as such : he could be saying "see, if I tried to push you away with my upper body, I would not be solid enough against you so I would fall over from my own force, but now, if I place my weight very low, between my base (the feet) and your point of contact, I can push you and remain stable". Funnily enough, uke #3 behind mimics the hand moves but does not seem to get it.

My attempt is of course open to comments and corrections, I claim no expertise on the subject and have no credibility to defend. I also add that Wikipedia helped with the spring and trigger explanations.

I would be interested to know what Bagua man says (he often seems to say something like "now I do this, then I do that"), in particular when he touches his head an points downward (around 00:36). Anyone care to translate ?

danj 02-06-2011 01:20 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 275672)
Let me give a very simple explanation, Michael. Instead of me videoing this, let's just use my old favorite picture of the one-legged stand trick:



Let's imagine 2 tries. In the first try Nage has not yet mentally arranged his structural paths inside (that's what "intent" means) and Uke just pushes him over. In the second attempt, Nage arranges his structure inside so that Uke's push is met with an angled force-path from the ground that acts as a brace under Uke's push; Uke is therefore pushing against the ground. You cannot see the minute changes that go on within the body to change the alignment paths, so seeing a picture or video isn't going to show you much. If, however, Nage has to drop down to two legs and lean a bit toward Uke and tense his shoulders, we know that he's almost certainly not using intent and is instead using some variation of normal strength. Often what you're looking for is based on your own experience through the years... and you're looking for what the demonstrator does wrong that tells you the story.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Thanks Mike, thats a great one for a force plate experiment.

BTW I recognise Tamura sensei on the left, does anyone know who's on the right, could it be Maruyama sensei?

Mike Sigman 02-06-2011 01:30 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Daniel James wrote: (Post 275806)
Thanks Mike, thats a great one for a force plate experiment.

BTW I recognise Tamura sensei on the left, does anyone know who's on the right, could it be Maruyama sensei?

When you said that about the force plates, Daniel, I did a quick imagination-examination of the equation-modeling and was rapidly filling in the gaps of what would be needed, assumed, extrapolated, etc., in the modeling, but then I ran into a problem. The forces and their impact-angles on the force plates probably could not tell us much about the exact configuration of the body and body configuration/shape would have a lot to do with the alignment structured by "intent" that is such a keystone to internal strength skills. I.e., I'm not sold on force-plates, yet. ;)

YMMV

Mike

Rob Watson 02-06-2011 01:48 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 275809)
I.e., I'm not sold on force-plates, yet. ;)

YMMV

Mike

Gotta find something that can register the physical effects of intent before significant progress can be made.

Demetrio Cereijo 02-06-2011 02:13 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Let's keep science away from IT as long as we can.

Mike Sigman 02-06-2011 03:05 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 275820)
Let's keep science away from IT as long as we can.

Hmmmmm.... it should be recognized that the early "cosmologies" had varying degrees of religious belief in them, but in essence they were founded on early attempts at science and trying to articulate how the world really worked. "Ki" is a term that attempts to explain all things in a condensed "Theory of Everything" (TOE) much in the same way that the current super-string theory is an attempt to reconcile the various branches of science into one whole.

So keeping western science out of internal-strength discussions is actually an idea antithetical to the original descriptive literature.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Flintstone 02-06-2011 07:11 PM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Daniel James wrote: (Post 275806)
Thanks Mike, thats a great one for a force plate experiment.

BTW I recognise Tamura sensei on the left, does anyone know who's on the right, could it be Maruyama sensei?

Tamura? Where?

Mark Freeman 02-07-2011 01:52 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 275814)
Gotta find something that can register the physical effects of intent before significant progress can be made.

Don't be holding your breath now Robert, that will be a long time coming:(

Demetrio Cereijo 02-07-2011 03:24 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 275826)
So keeping western science out of internal-strength discussions is actually an idea antithetical to the original descriptive literature.

But not to today's one. Times change.

What was an attempt to explain back in the day can be used for concealement today.

Mike Sigman 02-07-2011 06:22 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 275849)
Don't be holding your breath now Robert, that will be a long time coming:(

In my opinion the physical roots of the skills associated with "intent" (i.e., ki and kokyu) really wouldn't be that hard to isolate and define. The problem is that the defining paradigms, etc., are fairly vague and scattered and most people have difficulty condensing and codifying the associated physical phenomena.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

gregstec 02-07-2011 06:38 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Daniel James wrote: (Post 275806)

BTW I recognise Tamura sensei on the left, does anyone know who's on the right, could it be Maruyama sensei?

It's not Koretoshi Maruyama - he looked pretty much the same today as he did back then, but with no gray hair of course :)

Also, I do not think that it is Shugi Maruyama as well - someone identified these two the last time it was posted by Mike, so maybe search the archives for that - good luck.

Greg

Keith Larman 02-07-2011 07:14 AM

Re: Assessing "IP/IT/IS" via video
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 275859)
It's not Koretoshi Maruyama - he looked pretty much the same today as he did back then, but with no gray hair of course :)

Also, I do not think that it is Shugi Maruyama as well - someone identified these two the last time it was posted by Mike, so maybe search the archives for that - good luck.

Greg

Iwao Tamura on the left.


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