Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Sorry for being a stickler guys, but isn't Kodo's first name "Kodo" and his last name Horikawa? So when you're mentioning him along with Sagawa, Takeda, Ueshiba..shouldn't you call him Horikawa for consistency? Sorry for being a stickler ass stickler, LOL.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Katherine.
I have found that all the jutsu people I have met had a different focus to what I call Aikido.

They were into how to harm, how to disable etc. Justified by such things as budo etc as you define it. Logically saying it's for effectiveness etc.

All sounds good except for one major difference. Aikido wasn't done for such purpose. Budo was now described as the budo of love. The purpose was now based on the spirit of loving protection.
How to do Kotegaishe for example in a way where you don't rip the tendons of the wrist of the aggressor is thus a change in technique application. The same goes for all the techniques. There's a way to do them in order to cause pain or dislocation etc. or there's the way of Aikido.

Here's the corker though. The ones that don't cause pain or dislocation etc. are actually more effective in the sense that they are harder to escape from or counter. Of course based on degree of ability.

I'm not trying to change your mind but merely showing you an alternative view, well practiced.

So my view of effectiveness being a key question is that it's a non-starter for me. More important for me is why some people don't have this as their aim.

Regards.G.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Not so, The Ki Federation of GB does not belong to the BAB, I have no idea how many others, if there are any, that do not come under the BAB umbrella.

regards

Mark

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Do you have anything to support your notion that O'sensei felt that what he was doing was no longer about effectiveness?

How much first hand experience do you have with kotegaeshi from non-aikido sources?

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Mark

The ` Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido ` are not members of the BAB and I know of others...I receive emails from people asking about the insurance alternative to the BAB that we detail on our www.British-Aikido.com website - we receive no commision - we offer this information as a service.

Henry Ellis
Seagal - Rik Ellis Article
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Excuse me? I didn't say he was not about effectiveness. I said Aikido done from such a view is very effective and to me more so.

Kotegeishe is merely one example. How much experience? Much. Let's put it this way. Every non-aikido person or indeed some aikido people. That shouldn't be surprising should it for I say they should be looking after the well being of the opponent.

A new view to many. The budo of love.

Doesn't mean others are wrong for it depends on their purpose. If you can do effective technique in such a way that you at the same time are protecting the aggressor then that is I way I adhere to.

Painless nikkyo which is inescapable and yet leaves the aggressor smiling is quite an experience.

Regards.G.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I recommend putting him on the ignore list. It will make your life much better, Jason.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I say watch this.
Then watch this.
If you think that person has something of value to impart about the art of Aikido, aikido weapons and Ki then have at it.
Knowing who you are talking to is a good thing.
Dan

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I did not define "effective" in my post...

One can legitimately argue about whether destroying someone's wrist is "more effective" than simply taking the person to the ground. But there are many aikidoka who are unable to do either, and justify their inability with arguments about aikido's spirituality.

If Ueshiba had not been able to "effectively" handle real attacks from advanced practititioners of other arts, no one would have cared what he had to say. He would be remembered, if at all, as a Shinto mystic, not a martial artist. He may have seen aikido as a new kind of budo, but his results were impressive against the old standards.

If you want to study Shinto mysticism, that's your choice. Nothing wrong with it. But you're not studying budo if you're not willing to confront the effectiveness question.

Katherine

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Guys,

Look at the videos that Dan posted of Graham, and also check out his multi-colored rastarian hat while you are at it. Then you can judge whether you should take his words seriously or not.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Obviously an amateur, Ha,ha.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Dan seems to like my videos. I take it you like using videos to show something Dan?

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Has anyone ever seen Tony Wagstaffe and Graham Christian in the same room...?

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

<head explodes>

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hahahaha.
:D

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Mmmmmm. Seen being the operative word.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

How's your head? Hope your better today.

Try this one. 'I would love to see everyone enjoying and improving in their Aikido.'

I'm sure you'll feel much better.

Regards.Doctor.G.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I had my first Ki Aikido class the other day while on a business trip.The teacher was much less experience in aikido than myself and only sees his aikido teacher rarely (due to geographical isolation). But I found myself impressed with the ability to show and demonstrate aspects of relaxation and extension that are key to all good aikido using the basic ki exercises he had learned. These are things I often have trouble communicating with beginners.

On the martial aspect of things. This particular instructor is a senior black belt in an independent modern jiu jitsu (their spelling) dojo and has quite a bit of experience in more aggressive fighting takes on the martial arts. Personally, I wouldn't want to pick a fight with him, or many of his students (most of which also come from the jiu jitsu group).

Honestly. I find all the politics and style comparisons detrimental to aikido. If we all trained together a bit more and used such occasions to exchange notes rather than worry about who's instructor was stronger and perpetuating splits and arguments between earlier generations, we would all benefit.

PS - Dan, for a guy that spends quite a bit of time trashing the videos of others, I'm starting to find your failure to show anything of your own practice on these boards cowardly.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I've taken sudafed, can't breathe, can't sleep, and my head is fuzzy. So, please allow for some sarcasm to break through.

Ellis Amdur - Anyone not know him? There's not enough room to talk about what he's done and who he's trained with.

Bill Gleason - Uh, highly respected aikido instructor. Trained in Japan with some very good people.

George Ledyard - Anyone not know him? Highly respected aikido instructor who has trained with some very good people.

Allen Beebe - Trained with Shirata. Highly respected aikido instructor but, sadly, not as well known. A diamond in hiding.

Howard Popkin & Joe Brogna - More and more people know Howard. Joe hides in the shadows, but everyone who trains with these two are enriched by the experience. Quality all around.

Chris Li - Been around awhile and I keep hearing great things about him. I hope to meet him soon. He also has some very good people around him that have also "been round the block" a time or two.

Unnamed highly ranked dan aikido instructors - You don't get that high by being stupid. I've only met a few of them and the ones I met are very good people. Highly respected aikido instructors.

My sincerest apologies to the people in the Europe. I've not met you but have heard good things about you. So, I can't say too much about you. I'm hoping to get the chance to meet everyone over there.

A very highly skilled Chen style master level teacher.

So, okay, now let's skip down to some not so highly ranked people who are still respected and skilled: Gary Welborn, Greg Steckle, Rob Liberti, Stan Baker. These are the ones who have posted here at some point. There are probably a hundred or more that haven't but could be included.

Sadly enough, the list isn't complete because I've purposefully left out a lot of people from a koryu. Sorry, I don't know enough about koryu to say anything either on the subject or the people. You wanna know, ask around. I also didn't include anyone from karate, taiji, etc. And Apologies to anyone I missed listing. Been a rough day for me.

So, what do these hundreds of people have in common? It's actually fairly easy to answer. They *never* needed a video.

Now, imagine being in a room with all these people and telling them to their face that they should have demanded a video. Who are *you* to tell aikido shihan what they should or should not have done? Let alone the other hundreds of highly ranked martial artists. I'm sick of hearing about not seeing a "video".

Maybe instead of making demands for the mountain to come to you, it might, just might be a much better choice to seek out the mountain? As your teachers, your peers, your betters, your shihan in the aikido world have done. At the very least, check out things behind the scenes like most competent budo people do before getting "foot in mouth" disease.

Sorry, tolerance is low tonight. I'm going to miss training and I'm ticked. These are my friends I'll miss seeing. Crap, I hate getting sick...

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I hope you feel better soon. Take it easy and allow your body to heal itself.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Jonathan, overall a very good post, some good points in the beginning - however, your last paragraph is in extremely bad taste, and IMO, comes across as immature and very unprofessional.

There are many reasons why Dan, and others, do not do videos - some of these reasons have been expressed before, but are mostly ignored by the 'MTV' generation - sorry, but that is just not the style of some of us that came before that generation.

IMO, videos do not teach and really are only good as marketing demos, especially when dealing with the internal stuff - and contrary to some opinions, we are not marketing anything because we are not making any money off of anything. If you want to know what we are about, come see us - my door is always open and I do not charge any fees - hell, I even travel at no fee for those that have a sincere interest in getting together, just ask my new friends down in Maryland about that!

Bottom line is to respect the reasons of those that do not do videos nor pictures, and do not expect them to have the same opinion of those type of things just because you do.

Greg

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

That some of those respected aikidoka train with Dan Harden, and speak highly of him, is why I will attend one of his seminars, should I get the chance; their opinions are surely at least as good a recommendation as a video...?

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Better than a video - those opinions have FELT what can never be shown on a video :)

Greg

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hey, he doesn't want to put up a video, that's fine. But I get tired of people who constantly criticize others while putting up nothing of themselves. He leaves nothing at all to judge his knowledge or abilities by, but constantly belittles the abilities and knowledge of others.

I dont see the others on your list doing that Mark.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

PS - From the accounts of others, I'm sure he could have much more to add to these exchanges. But he chooses to limit access to himself. I think it's a shame.

Again, I wouldn't have brought up the video in this thread if he hadn't spent much of this thread putting links to other's videos, implying they were examples of bad martial arts.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

When your at Dan's level and willing to teach anybody you can do what ever. Go see for yourself then you will understand.

stan

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I'm sure Dan doesn't want or need you to build him up with nonsense like this...

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

The thread is dead. Long live the thread !

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Jason
It is not just about Dan it is about people removing the blinders so they stop making stupid comments. I could use my taiji teacher Wang Hai Jun to make the same point. Go feel the best people.
Do that and the conversations will have some meaning.

stan

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

When you say things like you did or like you've said in the past, YOU make it about Dan and not in a positive way.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Think for yourself, learn to judge properly... ;)

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I seriously dont get this line of thinking. If someone criticizes someone on video, that person automically has the burden to post a video of his own? Huh?

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Agreed. Makes no sense. :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hello Lorel,

Why is this automatic?

I remember having severe arguments with my very first aikido teacher, who was a Japanese ultranationalist and believed in a very conservative way of teaching. He argued that you were not able to criticize your teacher unless you were able to improve on what he was teaching. This argument (wrongly) assumes that knowing something and teaching it are identical. Of, course it might well be that teaching is a good method of gaining knowledge, but the two are not the same. I think in most universities students are called upon to evaluate their teachers, but this in no way implies that they themselves can do better.

Now transfer the argument to writing books or articles, or posting videos. If these are published, they are in the public domain and thereby subject to the opinions of those who happen to read or see them. However, the next step, that those who criticize have some kind of obligation to support their criticism with the same kind of offering, be it a book, article, or video, is not at all automatic. You might think they should do this, but there is no automatic obligation here.

The reverse of this, that unless you are prepared to put up your own video, or publish a book or article, you have no right to criticize an existing one, is clearly invalid. If it were a valid argument, it would inhibit a vast amount of valuable research.

I think part of the problem here is the nature of the medium itself. Videos of aikido show only so much and there is a vast argument about what they actually show. As a medium, books and articles are less likely to deceive. But even here, there were comments about Budo Renshuu, when it appeared in 1933. It made sense only if you could do the waza already.

This being said, I am very glad that Akuzawa Sensei made videos of his exercises. They form the basis of my own private training. However, since I live so far from Tokyo, I cannot check whether my own understanding of what he teaches in the videos is correct.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Of course not. Unless this someone affirms he/she can do better.

Then this someone could be asked to provide proof about his/her statements, be it video, witnessess, personal interaction, etc., you know... the usual means for proving claims.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Not necessarily. Consider for example people who are eager, for reasons know best only to themselves, to expose their lives on Jerry Springer and similar TV shows. According to this logic one should not criticize them without providing a supporting video evidence proving that one could do better.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

:D :D :D

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

For the "someone" in question there have been numerous witnesses and ample opportunities for personal interaction.

There are plenty of people with video out who get questioned regularly - it doesn't seem to provide any real level of "proof".

And if you could actually learn much from the videos then we wouldn't need all these discussions, right? There's plenty of video available on people with good stuff.

OTOH, another "someone" (but not the "someone" in question) once advised me - what ever you do, don't put up any video of yourself, it just stirs up the peanut gallery.

Best,

Chris

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Problem solved then. Isn't it.

Like I said before:

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

In my delusional state, I forgot to list Marc Abrams. One of the people I was going to train with this weekend. I'll use lack of oxygen as my excuse. :) Marc started training with Imaizumi in 1988. And he's currently training with Ushiro. Marc's a great guy and an excellent teacher.

And for those Monty Python fans, "I'm getting better" "I feel happy". :)