Yoshinkan and "aiki"
Tohei writes about "ki" and it's well known. But, I'm beginning to find that he didn't have the market cornered on "structure", "ki", or "aiki" as it relates to aikido. Shioda, in his own way, seems to have given everyone as much direction on gaining these skills as Tohei. The difference is that Tohei created a separate system for "ki development" while Shioda kept it within his teachings. I'll go through three key concepts that Shioda emphasized and point to where I see them overlap with core body skills/aiki/whatever you want to call it.
A: Chushin Ryoku. Most translations give this phrase as "center power". I think I like Steven Miranda's definition better. He writes it as "The power of the center line. Keep your center line straight." From a post here: http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...fd0fc6e68db5bd He goes on to quote Shioda Quote:
As Steven Miranda wrote, one must keep the center line straight. When doing any movement, the spine must be kept aligned straight between the feet. The upper body should not sway the spine, twist the spine, or turn the spine from *outside* that alignment. (Okay, I'm sure there are exceptions and such. But, in regards to my training and my experiences, I'm going from a beginner's perspective.) Doesn't mean you can't twist and turn -- just don't do it such that the spine is contorted out of that correct posture/alignment. If I had to describe chushin ryoku, I'd probably say it is the power derived from correct spinal alignment. That seems better than just center power. B: Shuchu Ryoku. I think most define this as "focused power". As noted here: http://www.sakuramartialarts.com/Mar...otes_s/643.htm Quote:
I'll add a small part here that I've found shuchu ryoku defined as "energy of intent". http://books.google.com/books?id=TFp...Wb_r_ldc&hl=en Given that intent is a very important training concept in structure/core body skills/aiki, then this phrase seems to make more sense. Because as some of us have experienced, when our energy of intent is working correctly, we can stand pushes to the chest, connections to uke's center happen automatically, "techniques" become "effortless", etc. C: Kokyu Ryoku "Breath power". Not going to go into this one. I can begin to understand the first two and how my training relates to the concepts. But, I think, that this one is a step or two beyond my current level. I think having a structured body with correct spinal alignment and being able to bring the ground to any point with energy of intent is a prerequisite of being able to do kokyu rokyu. I don't think that kokyu rokyu has much to do with most people's understanding of "breath" or "breathing", though. This isn't just meditative breathing, or zen breathing or deep breathing like most people think. This is a way of breathing that helps the body to store energy in the hara so that it can be released explosively. In other words, if you do reverse breathing (sort of like sucking the stomach in as you breath in) and at the same time, your intent is bringing the perineum upwards, you will get a sort of compressed hara. Once you have that compression, it's like having static energy. Then, you release, or convert that static, compressed energy downward into the ground through the front leg. Doing this while attached to some point with an uke allows all that kinetic energy to transfer to uke as power. Anyway, that's a beginner's view of it. I could be wrong. :) More research/readings: Tomoo Yawata wrote a reply (about middle of the page) to Ellis Amdur's article on Aikiweb and I think it provides some very relevant information in regards to Shioda and his training. You can read the reply here: http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1045 I'll repost part of it: Quote:
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Chris Covington could add more, I imagine. -- Mark |
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Excellent topic, and timely, at that. I'm going to reread it again (especially Tomoo's posts) and comment later.
Best, Ron |
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Yeah, I'm not at all sure about the koryu part. My guess is that there are some with "breathing" methods. But, for my interest in this topic, I was only concerned with Shioda's teaching and how it coincided with structure/aiki/whatever. Thanks, Mark |
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I don't think the problem is in finding information. I think the problem is sifting through the large piles of information out there and putting the pieces together. :) Mark |
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Tohei's approach to ki/kokyu power is pretty good and logical, although I don't think he's as clear/explicative as he should be if he's going to start a whole style based on "ki". Shioda's use of those same basic skills shows a variation that is more practically aimed at the kokyu and aiki development side. They're just facets of the same basic jewel. I haven't seen as much Yoshinkan as I've seen Ki-Society, but it would be interesting to watch the Yosh guys get a little less rigid and a little more ki. ;) Best. Mike |
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Could you please explain proper spinal alignment in regards to shiko (sumo stomps)? |
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What happen to this thread? It vapourised and conveniently forgotten:confused:
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I recently came across this clip of a prominent Yoshinkan Shihan (Ando Sensei) demonstrating one of the six basic movements that are core to the Yoshinkan training method. I was wondering if there are any internal skills being displayed here or not:
http://www.onlinedojo.jp/eng/private/video.aspx?vno=872 Notice uke's reaction at 0:29, 1:00, and especially 1:30. Perhaps someone with a trained eye could share their opinion? |
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"
Thanks for the thread resurrection, David.
Some folks seem sure that Shioda wrote his books.. but since it is internet post vs internet post, I still wonder. Regarding terminology and concepts and different aikido styles.. this book, from Ikeda students, seems to refer to Chushin ryoku from a non-yoshinkan source (I'm talking about the title and kanji on cover). Mark M, it would be interesting to hear how your outlook may have changed in the time since you started this thread. Still think A and B are a prereq for C? I'm starting to wonder if it is the other way around sometimes. Probably they all depend on each other rather than being true prereqs. |
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Interesting read. Mark M I would also be interested in knowing how your perspective has changed or not as the case maybe since your original post. Elbow power is also something that is used in ICMA. As for the elbow having no power as in the article i would have to say that i find the opposite is true, it is an easy place to concentrate power.
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It must be noted of course that the shoulder must be relaxed and dropped for the elbow power to be effective. And that the shoulder in turn must be connected to the opposite waist.
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David Y |
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Agreed David.
Best, Ron |
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I'll start with a quick answer. Are A and B prereqs to C? Considering that to have A and B, one must have a structured body, then yes. What good is breath power if the body's structure has slack, can't properly receive energy, and can't deliver power through A or B? If you can't physically keep a structured body to deliver center line power, how are you going to do that with breath? As for Chushin-ryoku and Shuchu-ryoku ... Quote:
Seems someone else mentioned "central axis" with regards to internal training. Note, though, that there is an added "pivoting" to it. Quote:
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I've been dedicated to Internal Training for 2.5 years out of a total of 3 (I tried to blend "regular" aikido training and internal training for 1/2 year -- it didn't work for me) and I still have major trouble with Chushin-ryoku. So, keeping all the above in mind, especially the last example given by Dan about the power generated by this principle and then read the below quote. http://books.google.com/books?id=1jo...0RYOKU&f=false Quote:
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"
Great post Mark much appreciated. I'll have to reread my copy of Total aikido.
Hong Junsheng also states as much in his book on Chen taiji. (I believe you have a copy of the English version) I like and agree with the examples given by Dan though i also feel that rather than a single pivot there is actual a second one so that the body can respond vertically as well. I mean that the body becomes a ball so that if you push down you are hit from above if you push up you are hit from below etc. |
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"
Central pivot is just part of "first step" model allowing people to identify and retrain their bodies. I expand on that with exercises to free up the waist from the hips. These are part of a series of martial movement rewiring drills that we do along side of IP training. As the mind / body connection grows, it leads to more advanced training later on. When the internal and external match and move together it becomes a very potent mix.
As far as pivoting goes; producing dual supported spiral paths through your center makes any idea of pivoting axiomatic. They exist everywhere, instantly and reverse at will. Dan |
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Oh, no. . .
Not the "Driveshaft" post again. ;) |
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I had a thought which may or may not be relate to this topic, in regard to the hara/dan tian (please forgive any wrong use of Japanese terms as i am not 100% how they correspond to the Chinese). I had started a thread at another forum in regard to generating power from this area, in trying to create a loop going down from the front of the chest to the dantian then up the spine and out through the hands. http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8843 |
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dual spirals, one up one down? or somewhere else? |
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Martial movement is NOT all the same. There are ways to move the body with weapons and without that are seamless and remain cogent, where adopting some other training I have seen would be a mistake. Cheers Dan |
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I would say that " freeing the waist form the hips" is loaded comment that in and of itself..can be an entirely external endeavour that may not produce quite the end results you are looking for. I m writing from my phone while fishing in S. C....more later Dan |
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"
From reading Shioda, he calls what I said was Aiki, Kokyu-ryoku. And what the IP/IS crowd is calling Aiki, Shioda calls Shuchu-ryoku.
Seems that Shioda is saying that both are simply components of Aiki, that both are just parts and neither is the whole enchilada. |
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Look forward to reading what you say. Allan |
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Heres the part you left off; didn't read?
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Pretty much, Lorel, yes. To add further, I don't think those three = aiki. I think those three are parts that help make up aiki, but not the only ones.
And let me make the disclaimer that I'm going by what I know now ... as a beginner ... :) It could be that what Shioda meant by chuushin ryoku, kokyu ryoku, and shuchu ryoku included opposing sides, spirals, etc. Hard to tell with the way the books and interviews are written. |
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Kokyu-ryoku=aiki and that Kokyu-ryoku/aiki=Chushin Ryoku + Shuchu Ryoku. While my view is aiki = Chushin Ryoku + Shuchu Ryoku + Kokyu Ryoku + opposite body + spirals + etc. Quite a difference there. Quote:
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My understanding is that kokyu ryoku is everything. If you can catch it aikido becomes so easy and so simple. Well that's what the top aikikai teachers used to say. So compared to that shuchu ryoku and chushin ryoku are just technical details and you know what they say about the small stuff.
Lift your arm, smile (optional) and throw. That's all. |
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"
I wouldn't add those things to my list for aiki, Mark. Shioda was pretty limited to that "one line" idea that (IME) vexes the majority of JMA- but he had "aiki" to a degree. I would never chose to move like him or (its by far, less efficient, and incomplete) but with other training in place...you still get aiki.
As I have said elsewhere- you can have IP/Aiki and still be vulnerable to good fighters with more efficient martial movement and understanding of the needs for combatives. In that regard I remain unimpressed with the martial movement of most people in the TMA- most notably ALL the Aiki based arts. As it is with weapons...at a certain point I'm happy to leave most JMA people moving like they do - and both Daito Ryu ( mainline) and Aikido's "one line model" is at the top of the list;) Dan |
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There are ways to train and then there are ways to train...then there are ways to use the results of that training that you will never learn from breath training alone. Thinking it does will limit your growth. More importantly-meeting someone more fully developed will see you stopped in your tracks. With more fully developed practice and understanding, you can get to a point where you would not be a "push over" -even for an expert. TJMA aiki movement with breath power will not get you there. Dan |
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Dan what's your point? Mark mentioned kokyu ryoku and said he wasn't going to get into it. I clarified how some aikikai teachers saw it. O Sensei's aikido was kokyu ryoku. Well that's what he said. I'm not telling you how to do your training. Please do it how you think you will improve fastest and farthest. I didn't mention training or practice. I talked about aikido. If you don't think aikido is kokyu ryoku that's cool. Maybe you will one day.
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I'm only partially interested in what Ueshiba said. I learned a long time ago not to trust Asian teachers in what they say or do at face value. I am more interested in what they display. In Ueshiba's case-that was more in-depth than Kokyu ryoku alone. Mind you, I did not diminish breath power training. There is just a lot more to aiki than that. If you, or anyone else, thinks Aikido-is only Kokyu ryoku..that's fine. Your opinion "Lift your arm and throw." will last about as long as your meeting someone who has a deeper understanding of these things -most likely outside of aikido. I'm not trying to change your mind or argue with you. Enjoy your training. I am talking to others; who either now know better, or are beginning to understand there is more to it than that. Cheers Dan |
Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"
I'm a pretty young aikidoka and by no means represent official stances of my teachers, but I have trained a little in Yoshinkan and Aikikai (AAA) styles of aikido and have some thoughts on these topics:
It seems that rather than focusing on esoteric concepts that are difficult for the average person to understand, Shioda sensei's focus was to include all the elements of these in specific ways in each kihon waza/dosa. Each kihon, whether dosa or waza, have specific footwork, upper body work, and breathing methods integrated into them in a specific, kata-like, way. Yoshinkan aikido was originally taught to police, military, government personnel...with very few instructors and large gymnasiums full of students. There wasn't enough instructors/time to explain and teach things so they just integrated it into each technique in a step-by-step manner. When one is getting to the 4-3rd kyu level they start working on many partner training exercises, like continuation drills, that help students develop fluidity. Often my teacher would stop me and ask to point out shu chu ryoku, katameru, chusin ryoku, kyoku ryoku etc, of a technique I was doing. So rather than saying "extend you ki" one might say "keep both feet flat on the ground, push off your big toe, sink your hips, keep your elbows in" etc. As for Ando Sensei doing hiriki no yosei ni...to oversimplify it, it seems (and I don't speak Japanese so I'm not sure) he was emphasizing the importance of sh'te keeping their elbows in and down...and moving from the hips with a properly aligned body posture, rather than lifting and muscling the arm up (around 25-27 seconds in he shows this muscling). As for the comment about the uke...I won't comment on someone I don't know, but I've always been taught its disrespectful to be vocal (grunting and such) when uke as its like saying "look at me, I'm the one sensei is using as uke, not you, and his technique is strong!" which distracts the students from what is being taught. But that might be just me...I'm not one of those guys that think someone is wrong because they were taught something different than what I was/is. |
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The question how Shioda Kancho's terminology maps back to IS is an interesting and important one. But I find the question of whether his ability was passed on much more important.
I think most can agree that most Yoshinkan aikido is taught more as a jujutsu than as an "aiki"-do - especially at the lower ranks. Still, I have heard some speculation that the real stuff gets introduced at the higher dan levels. I have no idea whether that is true. So my question is: does the current generation of Yoshinkan shihan exhibit any of Shioda's soft aiki power? Would appreciate any insights into whether the following clips of these Yoshinkan Shihan demonstrate IS to any degree: Chida Sensei http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf8BWdD4ioM Focusing on 1:25 to 1:50 Ando Sensei http://www.onlinedojo.jp/eng/private/video.aspx?vno=872 Focusing on 0:29, 1:00, and 1:30. ....rab |
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The kneeling techniques around 1:25 are called kokyu ho.
I'm not a master so I can't speak for them...and I don't know anything about the terminology relating to IS as its something I've never seen talked about in a dojo in those terms. Whether the concept is translated I can not speak intelligently about. |
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