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shadow 12-20-2002 08:54 PM

Fighting
 
I read a lot of threads concerned with the fighting aspects of the art. Wether aikido is effective on the ground, against kicking, against a boxer, against a grappler.... etc. That it is originally a battle field art, whatever. There seems to be a lot of concern with the fighting effectiveness of the art.
Why?
If I wanted to train so that I could defeat an oponent I wouldn't train a 'do' or way, I would train something that is for fighting.
I see aikido as a vehicle, a method for personal or spiritual development of which there are many and aikido just happens to be one of.
When I train I try to keep this in mind, I am aspiring for something great, not to be the greatest warrior but to be a great man and aikido is a way I can learn to understand my body and its relationship to other bodies and universal energy.
Sometimes I get caught up in the fighting aspects but I try to keep away from this. There is no competition in aikido for a reason, and this is that. In my opinion from a young age we are geared towards competition, the whole education scheme emphasises competition between people and I dont think this is the ideal that Morihei Ueshiba intended when developing the art.
I apologise for the long post but I still have some more to say.
I have recently come to the conclusion that morals, ethics and values all exist with the assumption that there is something greater in the world, something to aspire to. So if you live a life in which you hold morals and life valuable then you admit in yourself there is something higher.... so why not strive for it? Why do anything half heartedly? If you dont believe there is something higher, morals should not make any sense to you and as such rules and boundaries dont make any sense.
Back to my original idea, aikido is still a self defense art and as such the martial value is important. But I think it is only of secondary importance and we need to not get caught up in it. When it all comes down to it, the majority of us would get our asses kicked by anyone who has studied a serious fighting art, and if that concerns you then train a fighting art. If not then take a little look at your motivations for training.
The moment I admit to myself that something higher does not exist, then that moment I may as well be dead because nothing will be of importance.

Thank you for the patience any of you had to bother finishing reading my post.

On a closing note, Im not sure if I have read or heard this quote anywhere before but it popped into my head last night.

If you train to defeat an enemy then ultimately the only person who will be defeated is yourself.

tedehara 12-20-2002 10:49 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Damien Bohler (shadow) wrote:
...I see aikido as a vehicle, a method for personal or spiritual development of which there are many and aikido just happens to be one of.

When I train I try to keep this in mind, I am aspiring for something great, not to be the greatest warrior but to be a great man and aikido is a way I can learn to understand my body and its relationship to other bodies and universal energy.

Sometimes I get caught up in the fighting aspects but I try to keep away from this...

:cool: cool

SeiserL 12-21-2002 09:07 AM

Some people still train to fight the enemy out there instead of the one inside. IMHO, both are important.

Until again,

Lynn

udoka1 12-22-2002 03:19 AM

"aikido is first and foremost a martial art" i beleive those are the words of o sensei..........

udoka1 12-22-2002 03:25 AM

if u want to get spiritual do yoga... atleast thats my opinion. i am absolutely in aikido for the martial aspect of it. my dojo is very relaxed and small and my sensei kicks ass. almost all of our training is very much applicable on the streets. we focus alot on that. thats just my opinion on things though, each to thier own i suppose.

erikmenzel 12-22-2002 04:39 AM

I always wondered why people think spiritual and martial exclude each other.

Edward 12-22-2002 07:59 AM

When I was a teenager, I was so impressed with karate movies and started kick-boxing under that influence. After one year of training, I found out that I have been taking much more beating at the training than I would ever get if I became a street fighter. I quit.

Now at the age of 34, after many years of training in judo and recently in aikido, I have never had a significant fight in my life so far. Nothing more than some verbal exchange in the worst case.

I believe there are much more important benefits to martial arts than the fighting or self-defence aspects. However, if we neglect the martial aspects in these arts, many of the benefits are lost as well.

That's why I believe that we should avoid the fighting and competitive aspect while keeping the martial ever present.

mike lee 12-22-2002 10:43 AM

the wisdom of aikido
 
It's all spiritual and it's always spiritual — it just depends what level your spirit is at. Some say love is the highest level.

People who say that they train in a martial art, but don't focus on the spiritual aspects are in fact still training based on some kind of spiritual aspect and motivation. It's their spirit that motivates them to train, for example, on what they percieve to be "purely physical techniques." Nevertheless, it was their spirit in the first place that motivated them to train in such a way.

It's been the experience of some older and wiser teachers that if the spirit of the training isn't moved to a higher level, students may abuse their newly learned skills and, for example, end up in trouble with the law.

Therefore, every student, teacher and even dojo (as a collective) has a spirit. But it's up to those people whether it's going to be a base spirit of violence and brutality or a spirit of a higher order.

shadow 12-22-2002 07:42 PM

my problem isn't with the martial aspect of the art. aikido is a martial arts and it is trained as such. perhaps morehei ueshiba said aikido is first and foremost a martial arts, but he also said many other things such as martial arts is about love or unifying the whole world and so on. that aikido is not a means to defeat or destroy one's oponent but rather a way to embrace the universe.

when i read constant posts about how effective it is against a boxer or a kick or a ground grappler i feel that perhaps this ideal is somehow missed.

but mike you are right, regardless of who trains a martial arts, you are training your spiritual side at the same time (although i hate using those words cos it makes me feel like a 'new age' nut).

but if all you want is a way to beat the common thug on the street, go for it. who am i to say what you can and can't do. but you would probably be better off training an art more geared towards this than aikido.

in the end it doesnt really matter what i say. ive just found some new inspiration for training from watching morehei ueshiba's old video's and reading many martial arts books and i was just hoping to share the inspiration with others. take it or leave it.

opherdonchin 12-22-2002 09:01 PM

I've said this before but I will say it again (hopefully more briefly this time):

It seems to me that AiKiDo is about learning to change your perspective. For me it works when I manage to take a situation that I would have normally thought of as martial or full of conflict and redefine it for myself as one in which tools of cooperation and understanding would be more effective.

It is a martial art in the sense that it starts with a situation in which I perceive conflict. It transcends martial arts in that it teaches me to see them afresh.

shadow 12-22-2002 10:08 PM

i guess it's exactly the same for me opher.

situation full of conflict: life

now im still trying to cooperate and understand with it, i guess i got a while to go huh?

mike lee 12-23-2002 02:24 AM

no future
 
There's no where to go — there's only now. Now is the only time we can act.

I recently found out a good friend of mine was killed in the Bali explosion in October. She was only 24 years old, but she lived life to the fullest. Her name was Eve, and I can't help but think that there's some meaning in that.

It was just another one of those shocks that made me realize that we never know when we will disappear from this planet forever, no matter how young we are.

opherdonchin 12-23-2002 07:39 AM

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, Mike. News is very different when it touches us directly like that.

Jeff Tibbetts 12-28-2002 10:40 AM

I think that Damien is onto something here, and I think that many of you judged him too harshly at first. Many of us take our Aikido for different reasons, which is fine, but I think that we have to remember that our differences are what makes the world interesting, and our training diverse. Some of us will strike harder, some of us will take Ukemi better, we are all shaped differently and move differently. Some of us really focus on the Martial and some more on the Spiritual, but either way is a part of the same art. I think that anytime you have extremed on either side you lost some of what makes Aikido great. If you only want a spirital vehicle and nothing else, sit in Zazen and meditate. If you only want to stop physical conflict, study Senshido or some other highly effective MA. The thing I try to strive for is a balance, although I certainly lean more to spirituality, because I don't find myself in purely physical confrontation often (or never, really). I don't deny the martial aspect, part of the reason I started Aikido was for the fact that I didn't want to have to kill someone to stop them attacking me if they tried. Once I started really getting into, though, is when the spiritual growth kicked in. I agree with Erik in the sense that I don't see why the two sides can't be resident in the same person at the same time. It's a paradox and a contrast, but that makes it beautiful, like a good black and white photo, you get bright white and dark black and everything in between. If it's overexposed or burned than the picture may lost some of the beauty, even if it's composed just as well or even if it's a picture of something beautiful...

Thalib 12-28-2002 04:26 PM

The Katana is brittle yet ductile, rigid yet flexible, curved but straight in its own sense. It has a sharp edge on one side and blunt on the other. Yet all of this charcteristics exists in the blade and makes it a very effective and formidable weapon.

shadow 12-29-2002 06:19 PM

ive just recently read some articles by the current doshu and chiba sensei. they both say that o'sensei was not interested in the spread of the martial art, it was only through persistance of his son k. ueshiba that his opinion was changed and then o'sensei saw that his vision of world peace could be helped along by the spread of aikido.

with this knowledge in my mind it seems that perhaps we should train with a little more of this idea in mind, that we are training o'senseis path to peace and harmony, rather than his path to martial supremacy (for lack of better words).

johnny rebb 01-15-2003 02:31 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Damien Bohler (shadow) wrote:
I read a lot of threads concerned with the fighting aspects of the art.

Well spoken my friend.

Sanshouaikikai 05-23-2005 04:11 PM

Re: Fighting
 
I think it's very nice that everyone here for the most part strives to be a better person. However, that's why there's churches and other religious groups and organizations that can help you to become a "better person" and they'e FREE!!!! No charge whatsoever unless your in some cult...but we're not getting into that one, LOL! Like I said in a previous post on another thread....aikido (and most martial arts in general) can HELP to make you become a better person in the sense of discipline, respect, and self control...however, martial arts (including aikido) were invented to defend yourself, family, and country. That was the primary reason. All the "making you a better person" stuff came after it got all systemized and what not. Let's put it this way...I'm not going to pay whatever amount of money that people pay for martial arts classes just to become a better person and spend all that money on supposedly training in the martial arts when I can go to church and learn how to be a better person. Martial arts is about fighting and that's what it should focus on otherwise it'll just be ripping people off.

Ketsan 05-23-2005 04:48 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Martial and spirtual are linked although I think that the individual has to make a concious effort to improve as a person.

Kevin Leavitt 05-24-2005 04:04 PM

Re: Fighting
 
martial arts may not have been invented solely for defending or offending. There is a school of thought that says that the Bodhiharma "invented" a set of exercises resembling yoga to improve the conditioning of the monks at the shaolin temple so they could medidate longer. (over simplification, but the basic idea). according to this "theory" MA developed as an offshoot.

It has been well documented as to the benefits mentally and spiritually of MA training. The Marine Corps and the Army have recently adopted/revamped/placed new emphasis on MA training, not so much to train people to be effective at hand-to-hand, but to improve their warrior spirit.

I think self defense is more of a byproduct. Frankly if this is what you are concerned with, I can think of many more effective ways to defend yourself from knives, guns, to pepper spray. Much easier to learn and much easier to be effective.

Aikido is named aikido for a reason. It is a "DO" or way art. Focus is on developing and refining you as a holistic being. Some might enjoy it for the physical aspects, some for the mental, others for the spiritual. The fact is, that they are all there regardless of what you personally get out of the art.

Frankly I think it is more of a rip off if all you get out of it is some rudimentary fighting skills.

Sanshouaikikai 05-24-2005 10:08 PM

Re: Fighting
 
I guess you're right with the origin stuff...however...people these days come from different religious backgrounds or no religious backgrounds at all...hence...I really don't think they care about being spiritual or paying money to be a better person when they can do it elsewhere by other means free of charge, you know what I mean? I think that now a days...if it's not for the physical it's for the mental and vice versa. I'm not saying that there are NO people in it for the spirituality...there are many...but...who would want to pay to take a martial arts class where they teach how to fight...and you go there and they're meditating and saying all these weird philosophical junk and no fighting?

Bronson 05-25-2005 01:47 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
who would want to pay to take a martial arts class where they teach how to fight...and you go there and they're meditating and saying all these weird philosophical junk and no fighting?

I wouldn't, but I don't take martial arts to learn how to fight.

Bronson

Beau 05-25-2005 08:06 AM

Re: Fighting
 
It appears to me that the mental fortitude and spiritual insite gained from aikido training comes as a result and side effect of training towards the goal of being proficient in budo. As has been said a million times, "Aikido is first and foremost budo". If someone wants to treat aikido techniques like a moving meditation to seek enlightenment or what have you, that is fine, but I'll never be convinced that it is aikido.
If a person takes up kyudo, their goal is to become the most accurate archer that they can possibly be. The tenacity and intensity of training that it takes to reach this goal is what forces the practitioner to grow and examine themself.
Sure there are easier ways to defend yourself in modern society. Buy a gun, a rabid pitbull, whatever...
But...there are also easier ways to hear music than to learn to play it yourself.

JMHO,
Beau

jonreading 05-25-2005 11:53 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Many of the history books on Samurai devlopment lean towards the change from "jitsu" to "do" as a turning point in the countries internal fighting. Lots of "do" arts began once the warriors found they needed something to do to pass time because they weren't fighting anymore (I am not referring to the removal of the samurai class, a la Last Samurai, but an earlier period). "Do" was a way to integrate the martial spirit into other activities, including self-improvement.

To me, Aikido is a codified fighting system. Because we no longer fight, "jitsu" is not [necessarily] needed, so "do" becomes appropriate. Even though some aikido people do not train for combat, the martial spirit of "jitsu" must be present to understand why and how techniques work.

Those that train in aikido but do not understand the fighting concepts behind the techniques are not learning aikido, they are learning how to mimic a movement. If you paint-by-numbers DaVinci's Mona Lisa, does that make you an artist? No. Why? Because you do not comprehend the elements necessary to painting a portrait.

Everyone has the right to practice aikido. People train for different reasons. But, when aikido people remove the martial spirit from their training because they feel that aikido is not a martial art, you lose purpose.

O'Sensei said alot of things about aikido. He spoke about love, harmony and peace and the purpose of aikido, but he never in all of his life said anything that would hint that aikido was not a solid martial art. I know that aikido is not only a valid fighting sytem, but a good fighting system that is capable of producing skilled fighters. I contend that a solid aikidoka can hold his/her own against almost any serious fighter. So why do many aikido people instantly concede that they are not capable of defending themselves against "serious martial artists" or "real fighting situations"?

It took Damien 4 paragraphs to concede this point. How long does it take you?

Kevin Leavitt 05-25-2005 12:08 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Hey Jon! Certainly enjoyed training with you a couple of weeks back! Thanks!

I agree with all that you have said. Looking back through the various post and reading yours a thought came to mind.

I do not doubt the ability of the effectiveness if aikido. It certainly is the main art I identify with and feel I have learned the most with to become a somewhat effective "fighter" if you must.

I think where some get in trouble is when you start looking at it strictly from a self defense standpoint. Approaching Aikido always looking for how effective it makes you in a self defense paradigm will cause a great deal of frustration.

I can think of many things that are much more effective if this is your primary concern, and frankly I believe aikido is probably not the best use of your time if you live in fear of being mugged, assaulted, or beat up and simply want to learn how to defend yourself against such things.

I think what many do is try to apply simple logic to this and say: "well it must not be a real system or complete system if this is the judgement".

I would say, yes, those elements (self defense) are in there, and yes it is an effective system that will give you much more than simply defending yourself, aikido will give you options, many more than you have from simple self defense.

To me, there is a big difference between self defense and conflict resolution. There is also alot of ground in between. For me, Aikido allows for the development and growth of not only your physical skills necessary to be effective, but also the mental and spiritual aspect that must accompany that.

It is a wide system that can be many things.

If your focus is more pinpoint, that is, for self defense, or to be a competition MMA fighter, or to gain flexibility....there are other ways that may focus on these aspects that are better suited than aikido, but aikido should not be judged by this focus.

L. Camejo 05-25-2005 12:35 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Jon Reading wrote:
So why do many aikido people instantly concede that they are not capable of defending themselves against "serious martial artists" or "real fighting situations"?

It took Damien 4 paragraphs to concede this point. How long does it take you?

We will never surrender!

Nevaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! evileyes

<<<<<Draws Katana and Leaps into the melee of Aiki-fruities>>>>>
:D :eek:

LC:ai::ki: :hypno:
Shodothugz4eva :cool:

Randathamane 05-26-2005 10:12 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

....that they are not capable of defending themselves against "serious martial artists" or "real fighting situations"?
Defending yourself is not all that hard- all you need to know is what attack is coming and what you are going to do about it...

"serious martial artists" do exactly the same- they cannot throw with no contact, nor can the punch at thin air. if they attack, move out the way or enter in (or parry reposte as the case may be). i would be confident against another "serious martial artist" that i could take them down given time.... Ultimately they are going to have to grab me to throw me (BEEEEEP- Wrong answer!!!!) or attempt to strike me......

Kicks on the other hand will have most aikidoka stumped.....


:ai: :ki: :do:

happysod 05-26-2005 10:34 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

<<<<<Draws Katana and Leaps into the melee of Aiki-fruities>>>>>
just noticed this one, aikiweb needs some asbos methinks (three or four names spring to mind). Now put the toy down or mummy'll get cross...

Quote:

Frankly I think it is more of a rip off if all you get out of it is some rudimentary fighting skills
worth repeating (for example, there's the beer afterwards, stimulating conversation about injuries and wonderful sexy hakama...)

jonreading 05-27-2005 10:11 AM

Re: Fighting
 
I don't think my concern lies with individuals that choose to use aikido for other purposes. I think my concerns lies with individuals that choose to use aikido for other purposes, but do not clearly acknowledge they made a choice.

Kevin brought up a great point that he made a decision to practice aikido for other reasons. I think that many newer students may not realize that aikido has "other reasons" to train. I tread very carefully to present aikido in many different ways; I try to leave the decision up to the student to choose why they want to train.

This is maybe why I get worked up when I hear comments that criticize a reason to practice aikido. I firmly belive there is an order to learning aikido that decreases confusion, but I also support exposing students to all types of aikido. This is a silly thing to say, but I notice more dojo are creating an atmosphere of right/wrong, and they are exposing students to less aikido outside of the dojo.

Kevin Leavitt 05-28-2005 02:07 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Very good points Jon. I never really thought about the concept of "reducing confusion", but your right, the way we traditionally study does eliminate the "static".

I think when you go down that avenue of saying "right/wrong" you have failed and are in the process of building the confusion that you are attempting to eliminate.

One thing I have always liked about aikido, at least in most ASU places I have been and studied is that the techniques/practice is designed to demonstrate principles, but most instructors will also show you the application or bunkai of all the options that can go with it.

michael_rath 12-16-2006 08:16 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Aikido was the first martial art I ever trained. Yes, I said first. I have since that time and during that time explored adding to my aikido background with a few forms of karate (shito-ryu, shotokan, and kenpo), as well as JFJKD, and krav maga. There are others, but it's was in the search of looking for a more effective way to fight. If you're concerned about if aikido can deliver in an attack against other martial artists or just a brutal attack by any one with training or none my answer is cross train.
Even before I began my study of the other martial arts I used aikido just fine in my confrontation. I was able to use aikido many times, yes even against trained opponents. I wanted more, however, that was why I began to cross train. I didn't have spiritual pursuits and if you don't want them you won't get them.

I've grown up since then and I've had some hard lessons to learn that martial arts is more then just learning to kick the crap out of some one. Aikido brought me back to that point of yes we can use our fighting skills to beat and break others, but it really is a pursuit of self-discipline and self-control. Yes, churches and religions can help, but again only if you want it to. Martial arts just like spiritual walk is a commitment that you must take with regards of the things you may do to help or even harm someone. Don't take advantage of just your fighting, but the whole art or :do: (way). Or you'll eventually be disappointed and leave looking for the next person to teach you how to kick butt. There's some really good "reality" systems if that's all you want.

Michael

Kevin Leavitt 12-17-2006 05:08 AM

Re: Fighting
 
wow, old thread. It is interesting to see what was written a year ago, my own comments especially. It is always interesting to me to see how time, new ideas, perceptions, and pardigms affect things!

Anyway, even reality based systems miss the make and leave much to be desired. We simply cannot always choose the time, place, conditions of the fight we may be involved in. We may succeed physically in a fight, but commit somethings we regret, we may fail physically in a fight, but with the right frame of mind, and having your life and self in order may result in a victory, if not public, then internal (privately).

Arts such as aikido are not so much about the physical aspects, but the training the whole of the individual to make you prepared to engage in a fight mentally, physically, and spritually...it is about the whole, no about the pittance of skills you learn.

My profession is training soldiers to be prepared to fight. We spend a great deal of time, money and effort on training. I have computers, the latest equipment, and training aids to accomplish this, we have chaplains, doctors, and family support groups, and all kinds of other things to provide for a fit, trained and stable warrior.

Much goes into training someone to be prepared to fight!

SeiserL 12-17-2006 07:11 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
My profession is training soldiers to be prepared to fight. We spend a great deal of time, money and effort on training. I have computers, the latest equipment, and training aids to accomplish this, we have chaplains, doctors, and family support groups, and all kinds of other things to provide for a fit, trained and stable warrior.

My deepest respect, compliments, and appreciation for what you do to help preparing people for watching over us for and for the collateral damage it does to the people that love and support them. (From someone who spent his time on guard.)

Very few people can comprehend what goes into training a warrior/soldier, the least of which IMHO is physical.

Kevin Leavitt 12-17-2006 07:43 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Thanks Lynn, it ain't a sacrifice, it is what I chose to do, and get paid very well to do it.

As far as collateral damage and all that goes...here is an interesting perspective....

A few years back, I realized that I was not really into the whole killing thing and struggled for a long time about if I had a philosophical, spiritual, and ethical conflict.

I read, talked to a number of people, and thought alot about it.

A couple of books by the Dali Lama, etc really where a big help in helping me reconcile things.

We don't always get to choose the time and place and things we do. We do, however, have a choice over how we respond and react to things.

I hope that by being a good leader, setting a good example, and providing the best training I can to soldiers that when they are faced with the tough choices that they make, that they are able to make the right ones.

Too me, this is the real issue in why we study martial arts to broaden our understanding and ability to influence the thing that comes between stimulus and response....choice.


thanks again for the nice comments.

Erick Mead 12-17-2006 06:43 PM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
My deepest respect, compliments, and appreciation for what you do to help preparing people for watching over us for and for the collateral damage it does to the people that love and support them. (From someone who spent his time on guard.)

Very few people can comprehend what goes into training a warrior/soldier, the least of which IMHO is physical.

Brought to mind a favorite Churchill quote:

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

- Winston Churchill

DonMagee 12-17-2006 09:15 PM

Re: Fighting
 
I always hear there is no competition in aikido. But I think there is. First there are styles that have competitions. But that is not my point. Life is a competition. Everything you do is a competition. Why do you want to be a better person? Is striving to be a better person not competition? Why do we have a desire to mate and have children? Is this not a competition to insure our genes live on? Life is competition, every single act, every thing we do is to insure our survival, a competition against everything else that is not us.

Embrace competition, understand yourself, your goals, dreams, desires, and most importantly your motives. I train do many things in my life for many reasons. I train judo, which is a do and a 'way of life', aikido which is a way of life, and I used to train in TKD, which is again, yet another way of life. Each one with it's own motives and competitions for its own time in my life. I also train in BJJ, a sport designed to break limbs and choke people till they are unconscious. At no point do I worry myself about if I'm learning to fight, at no point do I stress myself out over the messages and spirit of the style. Instead I understand my goals, desires, dreams, and motives, and I do my best to meet those. Then I try to have as much fun as possible.

As for learning to fight, this is a martial art, it has martial techniques, there is nothing wrong with learning how to actually use them. I think it should be an important focus of the art. If it was not important, why would the creator of the art left in martial techniques? Train for whatever reasons you want, but understand you are training a martial art, and if what you are learning is not martial, then you can not claim you are training a martial art any longer. However, you can still claim you are living a way of life.

SeiserL 12-18-2006 07:19 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote:
Life is a competition. Everything you do is a competition. Why do you want to be a better person? Is striving to be a better person not competition? Why do we have a desire to mate and have children? Is this not a competition to insure our genes live on? Life is competition, every single act, every thing we do is to insure our survival, a competition against everything else that is not us.

IMHO, life is not competition. (Okay, it normally is, but normal isn't natural or healthy.) Competition is usually based on an adversarial win/lose proposition. Win/lose in the long run, is lose/lose.

Therefore, it is only a win/win proposition that provides the basis of cooperation, not competition.

The division "not us" provides difference and distance. Enter and blend, become one, seek similarities, points of contact, and woprk together instead of against each other for the survival of not just the fittest, but all of us. I truly believe that this was a part of O'Sensei message, gift, and wishes.

Fighting is only a last resort measure that provides only an temporary postponement of retaliation.

Mark Freeman 12-18-2006 08:06 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote:
I always hear there is no competition in aikido. But I think there is. First there are styles that have competitions. But that is not my point. Life is a competition. Everything you do is a competition. Why do you want to be a better person? Is striving to be a better person not competition? Why do we have a desire to mate and have children? Is this not a competition to insure our genes live on? Life is competition, every single act, every thing we do is to insure our survival, a competition against everything else that is not us.

Wow Don, everything you do is a competition? :freaky:

living, laughing, working, eating, drinking, loving, talking, shopping, walking, surfing, sleeping, aikido ....all these things I can accomplish without the thought of competing, why would I want to 'win' and create a possibility that I could lose?

Boy the thought of competing in everything I do makes me exhausted just thinking about it

I do however like to play competative games, they have set rules, and a predetermined end point. I have yet to see a rule book that was written for life. ;)

regards,

Mark

Jorge Garcia 12-18-2006 08:09 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote:
I always hear there is no competition in aikido. But I think there is....Embrace competition, understand yourself, your goals, dreams, desires, and most importantly your motives. I train do many things in my life for many reasons. ... At no point do I worry myself about if I'm learning to fight, at no point do I stress myself out over the messages and spirit of the style. Instead I understand my goals, desires, dreams, and motives, and I do my best to meet those....

Your perspective Don, is very self focused. You aren't looking for anything. You seem to come to all the arts knowing what you want. That's you. Some people are looking for something outside of themselves. These are the ones who come to Aikido and rather than tell Aikido what it shall be, they ask Aikido what it is. It is to these that what it was created for matters. To these, the Founders opinion matters, it's history matters and its traditions matter.

The world has plenty of "Cobra Kai Dojos" around with the "Strike hard, strike first, no mercy sir! " attitude. Finding that is no problem for whoever needs it. A person can make Aikido that if they want but then according to Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba, they are no longer practicing Aikido. (I refer you to the entire chapter on the Internationalization of Aikido in the book, The Spirit of Aikido, particularly pages 116-117, the third through the seventh paragraphs).

As I have said before, Aikido is a Japanese budo and was created to be that. It has a martial component which is the use of martial art techniques that reflect Aiki and it is the forging of mind and body through the use of these techniques by which we submit the ego to the discipline and practice of the art. Its hoped outcome is ki-mind-body coordination which leads to it's other philosophical implications.

I believe that the by-product self defense training Aikido supplies is enough for the average person and it is certainly more than most people receive in a lifetime so there is no loss there. Those concerned with ultimate effectiveness and fighting should look elsewhere and let the art be what it is.
Best wishes,

DonMagee 12-18-2006 08:32 AM

Re: Fighting
 
Quote:

Jorge Garcia wrote:
Your perspective Don, is very self focused. You aren't looking for anything. You seem to come to all the arts knowing what you want. That's you. Some people are looking for something outside of themselves. These are the ones who come to Aikido and rather than tell Aikido what it shall be, they ask Aikido what it is. It is to these that what it was created for matters. To these, the Founders opinion matters, it's history matters and its traditions matter.

Ahh but I do ask aikido what it is, and I listen. But then I look at my own goals, desires, beliefs, etc, and ask "How does this fit into me?", rather that "How can I change myself to meet this image?" Do I change, sure, everything in life causes change.

I still argue that everything in life is competition. Do you want a good job? Well you have to compete. Do you want a good girl? You are going to have to compete. Do you want your children to be successful in life? This is again yet another competition. In fact, attempting to preach the virtues of aikido is a competition with the messages of other ways. The competition may be less obvious to those who wish not to compete. But to compete is to strive to succeed. It is not about wining or losing, those are bi products of competition. To compete is to succeed. This may mean killing your foe on the battlefield, or finding a good job, having kids, living in a good area, electing the officials that meet your viewpoints, getting your message across on a board, doging that co-worker who wants you to work overtime, having the sports car, being in good shape, etc.

Why does a kid want a sports car? It makes him cool. What is cool? It is a competition. Why do you want to be a better person? There has to be a reason, But whatever that reason is, it assumes there are lessor people, thus competition.

Even in aikido there is competition. It might not be obvious, but it is there. Sure, you do not get in a ring and fight. But you have the my ego is less then your ego. Or the I'm too deadly, or the I get to wear a hakama because I have put in more time. There is competition with other arts (BJJ is not for the street, we are a battlefield art). There is most defiantly tons of competition in aikido. It's just not in a ring.

The problem is not the competition, the problem is that people are afraid of facing loss. Loss can be a great powerful thing. Never be afraid to lose.


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