Throwing with shihonage
 

Having trouble throwing with power. I,m throwing more outward than downward if that makes any sense any thoughts.thanks

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

You are likely not getting enough arch on your turn. When you turn, exaggerate the distance you pull uke's hands from his body, this with better break his balance. If done correctly, he should be falling before you even finnish your throw.

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

Hi Tim,

Imagine doing shihonage with a sword.

The basic form is: tsuki - raise to jodan - turn - shomen strike. So as you throw at the end imagine cutting with a sword like you're doing suburi - but gently. Actually as you do this you really shouldn't be throwing with your arm muscles at all. Something I've been working on is to try to initiate the throw with my legs and knees - legs spiral to move center (hara), center moves the arms ("one thing moves everything moves")

You can also practice breathing while doing the technique. As you inhale imagine your breath flowing from the earth into your feet, up your legs and filling your center (hara) and coming up the spine - while at the same time dropping your weight. As you exhale imagine your breath flowing out through your fingertips. If done correctly uke should experience an 'up' sensation before being thrown.

Also keep your center facing uke at all times. Uke should never be behind you (unless you're doing ushiro waza where the point is to remedy that situation as soon as possible) or to the side of you.

Best of luck!

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

yep

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Here you have an excellent example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgBS1IcrNzo

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I know that often video doesn't "show" what is happening, but watching this a few times, while the technique is being done crisply and cleanly, I don't see uke being off-balance - either laterally weighted onto one foot or uprooted onto tiptoe - before Kanai Sensei moves under her arm.
I don't consider it safe for me as nage to proceed if my opening hasn't unbalanced uke.
I may be off-base here but that's my honest interpretation of what I'm seeing.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

An excellent example of what? I don't usually like to criticise teachers with more experience than I have, but to me, that is an excellent example of every bad habit that I try to avoid in my shiho-nage. Particularly note how his bum slips out during his turn so that he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down. I imagine this might be the problem that the OP was having.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

There are two types of throws from Shihonage. You are currently doing the throwaway version. Master that then move onto the throw directly down version. Both are valid and used for different situations. I was first taught the throwaway.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Yeah, that was what I was wondering reading the original poster. Is he saying he's currently throwing out and wants to throw down, or that he's trying to throw more outward than downward but not succeeding? I think the former but it's not really clear to me from the wording of the question.

Personally I was taught the outward version first, and it's the one I generally always aim for if I'm not trying to pin.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

"he is left with arms extended and no ability to cut down"

LOL. Preeeeeety sure he's extending his arms on purpose to deliberately throw out and away, rather than down...

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

arms don't throw. body throws.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Precisely. Arms extended before you start to throw, so that when you slide your body forward, the movement of the body is transferred effectively to uke without requiring any force from the arms.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not explaining it well, just -- pretty darn sure he's doing that on purpose.

If the poster is trying to throw down, though, it's maybe less relevant.

Possibly more useful to ask his someone in his own dojo to watch what he's doing, or to take ukemi and see what they feel.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I can think of more than one different downward version I've seen and felt, too... E.g. some people seem to throw more directly down, where the shomen cut is particularly noticeable, which others rotate their body more at the same time, so it seems to feel more spirally... probably other versions, too...

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

Hey josh,I worked on this with paul it,s a totally differrent feeling from pinning them on the mat. I almost feel like I,m going to pull ukes arm out of socket doing it. and still trying to figure out how to get my body to do the throw. I,ll get it.

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

Hmm, do I owe Paul an apology? :eek:

William Gleason sensei will be giving a seminar in Toledo October 3-5th. You should come for even just a day or so if you're able. He's sure to be working on this stuff with us, and more! :)

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

Paul's a great teacher hopefully get to come to the evening classes in the next month.i,ll check and see if I,m working that weekend in oct.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

The trouble with this is what happens when uke steps back? Try it sometime. Tori moves forward with arms extended, uke steps back and takes their arm back.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Nage didn't do the throw correctly. The throw is too horizontal. Also, the slide forward was not big enough.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Yes. It is too horizontal. The reason for this is that tori is not in a position to cut downwards. Tori is not in that position because he has moved through too deeply and stuck his bum out so that when he turns, he is disconnected from uke and uke has regained her balance.

When tori is so far away from uke that he is completely disconnected and he must completely extend his arms just to maintain his grip, how big should that slide forward be? I bet I can take a bigger step back than he can take forward under those circumstances.

In the above video, Kanai sensei either has a very kind uke, or more likely, and uke who knows that sensei is happy to do the elbow breaker version (like the faster ones he does at the end) if he encounters resistance. On that note, uke falls very well from those later throws, and serves as a good example the person who wanted to know how to take high break falls.

By the way, if Chris Li would like to elaborate on his earlier response, that would be nice. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, and I admit my terminology lacked a fair bit of precision and finesse. I've really appreciated being proved wrong by you in the past, and it has always given me something to think about.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I'm not sure it is right place to discuss about Kanai sensei detailed teaching. My intention was to provide an example of powerful throwing from shihonage as requested by Tim. As one can see it quite possible to throw from shihonage with a lot of power an still uke can receive technique in safe way.

Yes we throw this way outside, in order to i.e. maitain correct nage posture - throwing inside compromises martial principles. Also, unbalncing is done by maintaining strong lock on attacker arm elbow from the moment of the contact all time down + keeping him always in mouvent.
This strong lock serves as a connection to uke center so in the moment of throwing it is enough that nage moves his center across a center of uke and throw happens without doing any waving with the arms.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

How should I say it in polite way :) I'm so happy your are able to spot your bad habits! Keep practice!

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I am not so keen on what he demonstrates slowly - too horizontal. But when things speed up it is much more to my taste - more vertical.

YMMV :)

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

There are many reasons for doing it in this manner. Other things are in play. From the origin of the technique, there is a sword cut to the waist, hence sticking the butt out so in front of your partner preventing the tip of the sword from getting stuck and having the tip doing most of the damage.. This position is also more favorable to break the shoulder or elbow.

Also, if you slide forward in a particular fashion, you can go deeper than your partner can step back.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I can clearly see that the arm lock makes this work, particularly in the faster version. Bill Gleason has an excellent quote about aikido that relies on arm locks to make it work.

Mike, it is really hard to discuss technique online like this. Hopefully one day we will be able to train together to show each other what we mean.

For now, I agree with Janet.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Just a small addition, but the picture below shows the position I like to end up in with Shiho-nage. Contrast this with Kanai sensei and you will see it is quite different.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/media/...-shihonage.jpg

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

We're encouraged to end up looking into uke's ear, at full perpendicular, and to cut straight down our centre line, since this is where their point of imbalance is and if we try to throw uke to their rear they can just walk backwards to resist, or perform kaeshiwaza. However, I've seen a lot of senior grades project in different directions and I suspect this is one of those cases where there's a big difference between the precise theory and the practice when using a good uke who can take a variety of falls.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

For ichi (linear): Strike your uke and get a firm wrist lock. Get low as you step through. Keep the torque of the wrist lock applied. Don't be afraid to use both hands and keep them right in front of your face. Make sure you can always see your hands as you change direction. Do not allow any slack to develop on the wrist lock. Stand tall and straighten your arm(s) as you touch uke's fingers to his shoulder blade. Now, touch uke's fingers to the ground next to your ankle. Deliver your finishing strike. Do all those and you will have a very powerful Shihonage.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Haha... I was reading this and thinking "this guy does Yoshinkan" before I read the thing under your name that says "Yoshinkan".

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

It does make a statement. That's not to say Yoshinkan Aikido is without finesse, but it's concerned with perfecting the motions. In my personal view, Ki is the tremendous power of our intention. "I am executing the technique." Saito Sensei, for instance, had some extremely fierce Ki. Tohei often spoke about committing to the execution of a technique.

It's quite remarkable that we have a conscious presence at all. Truly noteworthy. It would be hard to believe that it's effect is limited to what happens inside your head.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I agree. I certainly didn't mean to belittle Yoshinkan at all. It's just funny that it is so distinctive that I can tell that you practice it just from your description of shiho-nage.

I actually met Inoue sensei (formerly of Yoshinkan) a few years ago, and I really liked what he had to say about the reasoning behind why the Yoshinkan syllabus is the way it is. It made a lot of sense to me.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

We laugh about it, too. It's kind of a fraternal joke. There's a hell of a punch in the middle of Sankajo ichi that often gets gasps from students of other lineages.

Re: Throwing with shionage
 

The pulling-back shihonage throw will break uke's arm with a spiral fracture. That's a great idea on the battlefield. It's not such a great idea on the mat, or probably even on the street.

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/...shaft_fracture

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Maybe you know all of this already, maybe not, but this is a public forum so I'll answer as if any kohai student asked me this. Shihonage is one of my favorites, maybe because I am short. If you are much taller than uke, it will help to get in really good shape so that your core is strong enough to make the squatting pivot movement comfortable and easy. If you lift uke's arm overhead, or bend over instead of squatting to get under uke's arm, you will lose aiki, and power.

You can also try lifting the elbow of the arm uke gives you, during the tenkan movement, by making the first part of ushirotori undo movement of your arms. Draw in a deep breath. (I'm currently working on breath/kokyu power) This movement will lift uke's center and force uke's chest out and head back. If you do this fully, your arm will end up underneath uke's arm, and with aiki, this force will end up partly supporting uke. If you release uke in this situation, uke will fall, straight down, without need to apply any additional power to the throw.

To apply additional power, as you pivot and "wind up" uke's arm, imagine it is a bokken, bringing it up in front of your face, keeping your spine plumb, and execute a shomenuchi cut movement with uke's arm-bokken. Release the drawn up breath. This movement can force uke to take a very high breakfall if you are underneath uke's upper body weight as I have described above, with very little additional power when aiki. It's easier to throw uke shihonage for breakfalls as suwari waza. It's all about raising uke's center/fulcrum and then dropping it suddenly. It only seems like a power throw. Adding power just spins uke's body in midair around his center of gravity.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I like to bring the hand to my forehead, and use the thumb webbing of my other hand to make uke's elbow pivot upward and out like a wheel - as a short person this is a good way for me to float uke upward.
I like the downward release as opposed to the outward release, and keep uke's arm tight against her body then like a small wave breaking over her shoulder curl the hand over and down in front of my center. Like a bokken cut as gentle or as powerful as called for in the moment.

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

I do this too, sometimes, whenever, for whatever reason, my forearm doesn't match up with uke's forearm.

Apparently this works with munetski irimi tenkan kotegaesh also, encouraging uke to extend, rather than withdraw ki.
http://thinkingmartial.blogspot.com/...at-aikido.html

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

If it make uke tense up, not a good idea. If it continues to lead uke to further imbalance, good idea. YMMV depending on uke... :)

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Thanks for all the replies

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

We like to end up more like this picture before we actually execute the throw. http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/sites/...mg/ct64-05.jpg

My instructor would probably tell that guy he needs to stand up a little taller, though...

Re: Throwing with shihonage
 

Tell O-sensei to stand up straighter? I'd like to see that...